"Scalping" knives

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Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Howdy folks!

So, I've been looking at new knives to go with the CS Hawk I'm buying. At any rate, it will be one of the John Nowill of Sheffield knives, likely either the Green River, one of the butchers knives or this "scalping knife":

replicascalp.jpg


I always knew of knives like that as a trade knife, so I was wondering, does that style have any historical basis as a scalping knife, or is it just a colourful name the knife picked up like "cut throat razor"? I like knowing the history of what I'm buying.. :D

Pete
 

Forest fella

Full Member
Jul 2, 2008
2,897
211
Gloucestershire
Hi, if you do get a scalping knife/French Cooks style knife,let me know where you get it from,as I've been on the look-out for one to go with my Native American Kit.
cheers
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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Interesting to note that scalping was done on a tiny section of the scalp - a couple of inches - not peeling the head. I doubt a "special" knife was used. But then of course razors weren't intended to cut throats (Sweeny Todd notwithstanding)

Red
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
The very link I was gonna post :D

Red - thanks for that, I didn't necessarily think that it was a whole-head affair but I did imagine it being more than a couple inches - I've never quite gotten the whole scalping business m'self, but then I'm not in the habit of killing people or using my knives on people in any way :p

Pete
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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Its interesting - I've heard of it being a Eurpoean invention in the French Indian wars and others that it pre-dated the Europeans by a long way. Some state the scalp taken as small, others that the whole head was "flayed". Some state that larger scalps were divided to increase the boasts and trophies leading to the opinion of a small amount being taken.


An odd subject I guess - and a grisly one
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Its interesting - I've heard of it being a Eurpoean invention in the French Indian wars and others that it pre-dated the Europeans by a long way. Some state the scalp taken as small, others that the whole head was "flayed". Some state that larger scalps were divided to increase the boasts and trophies leading to the opinion of a small amount being taken.


An odd subject I guess - and a grisly one

That it is, on both accounts! I meant to look it up after reading your earlier post but got sidetracked reading about Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett :eek: Will do so now!

Pete
 

jojo

Need to contact Admin...
Aug 16, 2006
2,630
4
England's most easterly point
It seems it was not just the "indians" who used this method of terrorising their enemies.
How did the Indians start scalping their victims? One theory is that they learned it from the European settlers. A few Indian tribes had practiced scalping to a very limited extent before the Europeans arrived.

More often than not, scalping was practiced as a response in kind. The Europeans had taught them, first hand, the horror of viewing the mutilated remains of their families and friends after an attack by white settlers. By inflicting the same mutilation on their enemies they had hoped to stem the onslaught of these white settlers that were invading their land. To some Indians,if the attacks could not stop the whites, at least it would send the message that they were prepared to be as unscrupulous as the Europeans. The Iroquois in particular, used scalping to this purpose.

In the 11th century, the Earl of Wessex scalped his enemies. When the English and the Dutch came to the new world they brought the custom with them. This activity was brought not so much as an official method of warfare, but as a bounty to ease the anger of the frontiersmen.

The western border of the colonies was being populated with settlers that were comprised of a dubious lot. They were outlaws and runaways. With them they brought disease and alcohol. The frontier was a breeding ground for conflict with the Indian population. Initially the frontiersmen turned on the Indians in an attempt to move them off the land. When the Indians retaliated, the settlers turned to the government for help. The settlers demanded retribution for the Indian reprisals. The Dutch, and soon after the English, government created the scalp bounty as a means to pacify the settlers. Simply, they paid a fee for each scalp that was delivered to the locally appointed magistrate.

Although the army was accomplishing the task of displacing the Indians, the bounty encouraged settlers to mount attacks on the Indians whenever they could. In 1703, Massachusetts paid 12 pounds for an Indian scalp. By 1723 the price had soared to 100 pounds. To the frontiersmen, it did not matter if the scalp came from an Indian or a white man. All that mattered was the bonus. The practice eventually became widespread. The French used the bounty on scalps to eradicate a peaceful tribe in Newfoundland. During the French and Indian Wars, the English offered their troops a bounty of 200 pounds for the scalp of the chief of the Delaware tribe, Shinngass. This was 25 times the price that they offered their Indian allies for the scalp of a French soldier. This practice of paying a bounty for Indian scalps continued into the 19th century before the public put an end to the practice.

This practice of paying a scalp bounty inspired a widespread retaliation from the Indians. White frontiersmen would scalp not only the warriors but also the women and the children. In many cases the scalp was not even taken from an Indian. The government could not tell the difference. However, the Indians were blamed for initiating the practice, because no European would stoop so low as to take a scalp. It should also be noted that only the Indians were held accountable for the practice.

I don't think there was such a thing as a "scalping knife". I seem to remember reading on a forum somewhere, can't think which one at the moment, that this particular knife is not a particularly accurate reproduction of any original knife.

Not a bad looking knife though.
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
It seems it was not just the "indians" who used this method of terrorising their enemies.


I don't think there was such a thing as a "scalping knife". I seem to remember reading on a forum somewhere, can't think which one at the moment, that this particular knife is not a particularly accurate reproduction of any original knife.

Not a bad looking knife though.

Where's that article from outta curiosity? I disagree with a few points plus the general tone of it (namely the implication that Native Americans bore a childlike innocence until we nasty Europeans came over, put a knife in their hands and shrieked "Scalp!") so just wondering.

I'll need to look up on the knife now, no sense thinking I'm buying a historically accurate replica when I ain't, cheers for that! :)

Pete
 

jojo

Need to contact Admin...
Aug 16, 2006
2,630
4
England's most easterly point
I did a search on Google , there are quite a few sites on the net relating to this subjet. This one.

There is some reference here on Wikipedia that says much the same thing.

Trouble is, we can only "know" what has happened through reading historical records. And records were written by the people who won, so it tends to be a bit one sided.

I can't think which forum I saw the reference to that knife, possibly was on Muzzleloader forum, or on Eric Metheven's Moutainman forum.

I'll try to find it again, but no promises or anything!
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Fair enough mate! I haven't read all of this one but I found what I had read a bit more convincing. Unfortunately it is difficult finding any argument about such a subject that is anything other than fiercely in favour of one "side" rather than an empirical analysis...

Cheers mate :D I'll see if I can find anything about it on either of those forums!

Pete
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,729
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Mercia
Have a try here as well

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/1998/scalping.html

http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo08018.html

They do portray the information in a very different light.

I have no honest opinion on the veracity of either - but its an interesting topic all around - as indeed are the French Indian wars. I confess that I am fascianted with the history of the 18th and 19th centuries - although I am woefully ignorant on many aspects, it was a very interesting time.

Red
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Have a try here as well

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/1998/scalping.html

http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo08018.html

They do portray the information in a very different light.

I have no honest opinion on the veracity of either - but its an interesting topic all around - as indeed are the French Indian wars. I confess that I am fascianted with the history of the 18th and 19th centuries - although I am woefully ignorant on many aspects, it was a very interesting time.

Red

Thanks for those ones! It is a very interesting part of history, the Revolution and surrounding timeline have always been an interest for me; the problem, I think, that many people face is that they look at such history expecting to find a good guy and a bad guy. It's easy to say that the Natives were peace-loving hippies and the Europeans were marauding pillagers, and equally so to say that the Natives were savage monsters and the Europeans peaceful settlers; neither comes near the truth, I think, and both are wonderful examples of having made a decision before looking at the evidence. To look at any period of history and see only black and white is generally to look with your eyes closed...

Pete
 

Bravo4

Nomad
Apr 14, 2009
473
0
54
New Mexico, USA
Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" has a bit of info on scalping knives:

"The nonchalance with which the term (scalping knives) was tossed around might lead one to believe that it meant something fairly specific. Actually, in the trade, any cheap butcher knife might be a "scalper". This had been as true in the early colonial trade as it was in the days of the mountain man."

Some years ago I got a very special "backroom tour" of a local museum. The Wheelwright Museum holds a vast collection of Native American artifacts and relics, most of which will never again see the light of day. The one thing I will surely never forget, human scalps. As I recall, sizes were roughly about what a single pass with a good sized blade would produce, hair color and type ranged from straight black to curly blonde. To see such a thing, well the effect was pretty intense, how much more so back in the day I can only imagine.
 

Pict

Settler
Jan 2, 2005
611
0
Central Brazil
clearblogs.com
People are people. On both sides of the American frontier there were people of noble character and murderous thugs. There is ample evidence out there of mountain men living peacefully with Indians and working together to trap and trade at the same time being at war with enemies both red and white. One thing is for certain is that the modern tendency to simplify and romanticize both the American Indian and the American Frontiersman is woefully inadequate. Mac
 

Oblio13

Settler
Sep 24, 2008
703
2
67
New Hampshire
oblio13.blogspot.com
I was a history major, and actually did one of my papers on this topic. (I was eccentric even back then.)

I'm sure the thread would be trashed if I discussed the actual "how to", (take my word for it, though, the mechanics are morbidly fascinating) so I'll just say that scalping, (as well as other forms of mutilation), torture and cannibalism were all practiced widely before Europeans showed up over here.
 

Chinkapin

Settler
Jan 5, 2009
746
1
83
Kansas USA
In answer to your original question about whether or not there was such a thing as a "scalping knife", we might be best served by applying Occam's Razor. (The simplest, most logical assumption is usually the correct one.) Steel knives were something highly desired by Native American's, and they had to trade pelts, etc. to obtain them. It is logical to assume that the typical Native American, wanted a good, solid, useful knife, capable of performing many tasks. Enter the simple, straitforward butcher knife. If he skinned a deer, this is the knife he used; if he cut some leather thongs, this is the knife he used; and more to the point if he scalped someone, this is the knife that he used. It was just his knife, not his "scalping knife." He didn't have a drawer full of knives at home, (like many of us. lol ) It is just a generic term for a butcher knife, that was invented on the frontier and bandied about with no real meaning.
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Bravo4 - thanks for the quote! That does sound like a grisly sight :eek:

Pict - quite true!

Oblio13 - outta curiosity, cannibalism? Are we talking survival, ritual or casual?

Chinkapin - fair point :p

I've kinda decided I'll probably just get a butchers knife pattern, I don't like that the scalp knife has a scandi grind. The butchers knife should be historically accurate enough anyway :D

Pete
 

Pict

Settler
Jan 2, 2005
611
0
Central Brazil
clearblogs.com
Here's an example from my home state of the type of things that went on. The Wyoming Valley Massacre happened just north of where my parents had a house in the mountains.

The level of brutality on the eastern frontier at this time is best described as "No quarter asked none given". All of the base motivations for human cruelty are there, racism, hatred, profit, revenge. Scalping was an ugly practice, but mutilating the dead is nothing compared to what was done to captives on both sides. Indians of the eastern forest treated captives according to their needs and mood at the time. Treatment ranged from unspeakable horror to full adoption into the tribe. It was not uncommon for a tribe to raise white children whose parents and siblings had been butchered by the same tribe. It was also common for those white children to want to stay with the tribe or attempt return once they had been "freed". On the Susquehanna young white tribe members were often used as bait to lure riverboats to the bank where their crews were slaughtered. Mac
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Pict - funnily enough, Wyoming is my "dream state" - the place I would choose to live above all others if given half a chance! Sounds like it has its dark history too, though, like most places I guess. Cheers for posting mate!

Pete
 

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