Neanderthals - more sophisticated than previously thought?
- Thread starter gregorach
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Could have? Possibly. Both H. sap. neanderthalis and H. sap. sapiens were around at the same time, although it's not clear whether interbreeding was actually possible or not.
Did we? The available genetic evidence says, "Probably not."
Did we? The available genetic evidence says, "Probably not."
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
We visited the science museum in london last year, where the had a display saying there was a theory that modern europeans may have a sprinkling of neanderthal in them. The displayed showed both modern human and neanderthal skulls. Sitting in cafe later people watching, I noticed oriental asians and africans don't have brow ridges, european men do. Only very slight brow ridges but I certainly left the museum with the idea that I might not be completely homo sapien. Looking at differant people across the world later, austra-polynesian and african americans also have brow ridges.
That's kinda like saying that Neanderthals were taller, therefore tall people might be descended from them. There's a lot of variation in "modern" humans. There was probably a lot of variation in Neanderthals too.
It's this cline thing again.
Mongoloid peoples have fatty eyelids, Andaman islanders have no body hair, the average height of the African bushman is somewhat under five foot, while the average height of Northern Europeans is much greater. We all look very different, but our basic DNA is so close that we can breed, and more importantly breed fertile offspring, We are all Homo sapiens sapiens. One species.
Homo sapiens neanderthalis was a different species. The were still homo sapiens but not our variety of it.
Like lions and cheetahs. Both big cats, but different species,
Chimpanzees don't breed with gorillas, or orang utans or even Bonobos.
I doubt that Jean M Aule's Clan of the Cave Bear type interaction actually existed.
Our ancestors were moving into Europe when theirs were beginning to die off according to the timelines,
Basques may well be descendants of the first settlers of HSS, but they are still thoroughly modern peoples, fully capable of interbreeding with the rest of the human cline.
cheers,
Toddy
Mongoloid peoples have fatty eyelids, Andaman islanders have no body hair, the average height of the African bushman is somewhat under five foot, while the average height of Northern Europeans is much greater. We all look very different, but our basic DNA is so close that we can breed, and more importantly breed fertile offspring, We are all Homo sapiens sapiens. One species.
Homo sapiens neanderthalis was a different species. The were still homo sapiens but not our variety of it.
Like lions and cheetahs. Both big cats, but different species,
Chimpanzees don't breed with gorillas, or orang utans or even Bonobos.
I doubt that Jean M Aule's Clan of the Cave Bear type interaction actually existed.
Our ancestors were moving into Europe when theirs were beginning to die off according to the timelines,
Basques may well be descendants of the first settlers of HSS, but they are still thoroughly modern peoples, fully capable of interbreeding with the rest of the human cline.
cheers,
Toddy
Yeah, that stands to reason.
As to weather neanderthal could have bred with homo sapiens, i believe it is entirely possible. My reasoning being things like ligers or labradoodles etc. Inter specie breeding is possible, but the likelyhood of said offspring being fertile is less so, but it only takes one to breed fertile offspring and then off it goes on a new track.
Labradoodles are from two dogs; very different looking I grant you but both dogs. Canis lupus familiaris.
Not so with the cats. They are all felidae, but there the lines seperate out and the biologists tell us that there are five families ( or were, the sabre toothed tiger one is extinct)
The lions and tigers are from the same felidae felinae lines but cheetahs are from felidae panthera line and the two don't interbreed.
However, both are still 'big cats'.
This means that the lion and the tiger 'can', generally they don't choose to, humans seem to need to do most of the encouraging, interbreed, but the differences are too great with panthera animals.
Is this making things any clearer HillBill ?
cheers,
Toddy
Not so with the cats. They are all felidae, but there the lines seperate out and the biologists tell us that there are five families ( or were, the sabre toothed tiger one is extinct)
The lions and tigers are from the same felidae felinae lines but cheetahs are from felidae panthera line and the two don't interbreed.
However, both are still 'big cats'.
This means that the lion and the tiger 'can', generally they don't choose to, humans seem to need to do most of the encouraging, interbreed, but the differences are too great with panthera animals.
Is this making things any clearer HillBill ?
cheers,
Toddy
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whether it was possible for modern humans and Neanderthals to interbreed, in the same way that it it doesn't matter that it was possible for me to win last week's lottery. The important question is "what did happen?" - and on the currently available evidence, the answer seems to be that there was probably no significant interbreeding between modern humans and Neanderthals.
Of course, it's always possible that new evidence in the future will change that, but for now, it's the best answer we've got.
Of course, it's always possible that new evidence in the future will change that, but for now, it's the best answer we've got.
Another interesting read, thanks for the link...
I know its a bit far fetched, but does anyone recall a theory that the folk stories of trolls, dwarfs etc esp in northern europe were based on distorted memories/stories about surviving neanderthals? Interaction between tribes or groups. IIRC it featured in a novel, but the appendix mentioned a real world theory.
I know its a bit far fetched, but does anyone recall a theory that the folk stories of trolls, dwarfs etc esp in northern europe were based on distorted memories/stories about surviving neanderthals? Interaction between tribes or groups. IIRC it featured in a novel, but the appendix mentioned a real world theory.
Lions and tigers also produce mule offspring - they are not capable of breeding.
However.... We are closer to chimpanzees than lions are to tigers it is thought possible we could produce mule offspring with chimpanzees, and there is always `those rumours` humanzees have been created in the past. If we can interbreed with chimps we most likely could have bred with neanderthals. Whether the offspring would have been fertile or not is another matter.
Incidentally, the genetic relations is closer between us and chimps than Orangs are to gorillas. Indeed Orangs split off at a much earlier point making a human/gorilla hybrid much more feasable than an Orang/Gorilla! sometimes we forget just how much of an ape we are. I think people get thrown by phenotype - that is, how different one species looks from another, which bears no relevance to relatedness. All dogs are the same species but chihuahuas and huskies have a very different phenotype.
cheers,
Well, I have a theory of my own about that sort of thing... I suspect that these folk tales are actually memories of the time when a sedentary agrarian culture was displacing a nomadic hunter-gatherer culture. You see similar tales much more recently in areas where Europeans encountered native hunter-gatherer cultures during the period of colonial expansion, such as in North America and Australia, where the natives are accorded all sorts of near-magical powers and abilities.
It's just an idea though - I've got no solid evidence for it. Old tales are always hard to interpret...
It's just an idea though - I've got no solid evidence for it. Old tales are always hard to interpret...
We can't interbreed with chimps despite all the planet of the apes stuff,
Pan troglodytes is a great ape, technically so are we, but the lines split million of years ago.
That time is crucial; the longer the divide the less the possibility of successful breeding as the differences grow with subsequent generations.
We know of four different generae within the Hominids.........us, gorillas, chimps and orangutans.
We are classed as Homo sapiens sapiens
Chimps are Homo Panina pan troglodytes
Bonobos are Homo Panina pan paniscus
Orangutans are Homo pongo pygmaeus
Think of each species as a gene pool where individuals share enough in common that they can successfully interbreed, we have no evidence that any of these four surviving homonidae families can. We are just too different despite the fact that if we go far enough back we are all descended from a common ancestor population.
If they are declared a seperate species, then the gene pool is different enough that interbreeding does not generally happen.
It's that 'generally' that causes the query with the Neanderthals
Hominoidae Homo sapiens sapiens
Hominoidae Homo sapiens neanderthalis
Different species............but just how long ago was the divide ? Is the second out of Africa wave our ancestors and the first wave theirs ? If so then the divide and time of the divide is probably too great. If not
On balance, I think the divide is too great. I suspect that archaeology will find more and more evidences for a complex society within Neanderthal populations, just as it will find more evidence for the lives of HSS ones.
Found a nice simple explanation of classification on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
cheers,
Toddy
Pan troglodytes is a great ape, technically so are we, but the lines split million of years ago.
That time is crucial; the longer the divide the less the possibility of successful breeding as the differences grow with subsequent generations.
We know of four different generae within the Hominids.........us, gorillas, chimps and orangutans.
We are classed as Homo sapiens sapiens
Chimps are Homo Panina pan troglodytes
Bonobos are Homo Panina pan paniscus
Orangutans are Homo pongo pygmaeus
Think of each species as a gene pool where individuals share enough in common that they can successfully interbreed, we have no evidence that any of these four surviving homonidae families can. We are just too different despite the fact that if we go far enough back we are all descended from a common ancestor population.
If they are declared a seperate species, then the gene pool is different enough that interbreeding does not generally happen.
It's that 'generally' that causes the query with the Neanderthals
Hominoidae Homo sapiens sapiens
Hominoidae Homo sapiens neanderthalis
Different species............but just how long ago was the divide ? Is the second out of Africa wave our ancestors and the first wave theirs ? If so then the divide and time of the divide is probably too great. If not
On balance, I think the divide is too great. I suspect that archaeology will find more and more evidences for a complex society within Neanderthal populations, just as it will find more evidence for the lives of HSS ones.
Found a nice simple explanation of classification on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
cheers,
Toddy
I'm in agreement with Gregorach about the trolls and the all the other fae folks.
Hunter gatherers and farmers, like fisherfolk and farmfolks, each tied to their own seasons and environments.
cheers,
Toddy
Hunter gatherers and farmers, like fisherfolk and farmfolks, each tied to their own seasons and environments.
cheers,
Toddy
We can't interbreed with chimps despite all the planet of the apes stuff,
Pan troglodytes is a great ape, technically so are we, but the lines split million of years ago.
That time is crucial; the longer the divide the less the possibility of successful breeding as the differences grow with subsequent generations.
We know of four different generae within the Hominids.........us, gorillas, chimps and orangutans.
We are classed as Homo sapiens sapiens
Chimps are Homo Panina pan troglodytes
Bonobos are Homo Panina pan paniscus
Orangutans are Homo pongo pygmaeus
Think of each species as a gene pool where individuals share enough in common that they can successfully interbreed, we have no evidence that any of these four surviving homonidae families can. We are just too different despite the fact that if we go far enough back we are all descended from a common ancestor population.
If they are declared a seperate species, then the gene pool is different enough that interbreeding does not generally happen.
It's that 'generally' that causes the query with the Neanderthals
Hominoidae Homo sapiens sapiens
Hominoidae Homo sapiens neanderthalis
Different species............but just how long ago was the divide ? Is the second out of Africa wave our ancestors and the first wave theirs ? If so then the divide and time of the divide is probably too great. If not
On balance, I think the divide is too great. I suspect that archaeology will find more and more evidences for a complex society within Neanderthal populations, just as it will find more evidence for the lives of HSS ones.
Found a nice simple explanation of classification on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
cheers,
Toddy
A quite brilliant and clear explanation of the links between human and ape can be found on this youtube video
IDA
Scroll forward to about 2.40 as this is where the diagramming of the human tree of evolution unfolds
WARNING
There is a few swear words used, and an expression of atheism, at around the 6.00 minute mark
The terms are easy to understand are current with facts as they stand today
No lizards, alien or otherwise were mentioned or used in the making of this youtube
Ah, the Picts... That's another interesting one. Many of the stories of the Picts bear a great deal of resemblance to the Irish stories of the Sidi. Personally (and again, this is just speculation on my part) I suspect that when overtly supernatural tales fell out of favour in Scotland due to the Reformation (which was a lot more abrupt and thorough up here than elsewhere in Britain), many of the old tales simply swapped the word "Pict" for "Fae" (or "Sidh", or whatever the local term was). Hey presto, the tale is no longer heretical superstition, it's just about a mysterious but undoubtedly real "lost" culture.
The stealthy aspect is one of the things that I see as being a very close parallel to how Europeans saw both the Native Americans and the Australian Aborigines. There are loads of references to both being able to "magically" appear and disappear in natural environments - it even turns up in Crocodile Dundee. Exactly what you'd expect when a bunch of loud, clumsy, heavy-booted foreigners meet local hunter-gatherers... Or when a bunch of dayglo Gortex-clad townies meet canny OG Ventile-clad bushcrafters - just step off the path, and they think you've vanished!
The stealthy aspect is one of the things that I see as being a very close parallel to how Europeans saw both the Native Americans and the Australian Aborigines. There are loads of references to both being able to "magically" appear and disappear in natural environments - it even turns up in Crocodile Dundee. Exactly what you'd expect when a bunch of loud, clumsy, heavy-booted foreigners meet local hunter-gatherers... Or when a bunch of dayglo Gortex-clad townies meet canny OG Ventile-clad bushcrafters - just step off the path, and they think you've vanished!
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