Legalities fo Fishing rods, handlines etc

[Jack Bounder]

Well, I've asked if a hand line is considered legal in the same way that a gill net or night line might be considered illegal. So, if I owned the fishing rights, is there some legislation which would prevent me from using a hand line.

 

[mountainm]

I'd figure a handline is more of a reel than a rod. On a pole you don't wind in line.

 

[Dave]

Which comes back to there is no definition on the minimum, (or maximum even) rod length.

It's perfectly fine and seen as a competitive sport to fish a canal or pond with a 17m long, carbon fibre pole and fishing line, but not ok to fish with a 6 inch 'rod' in the same way.

impeccable logic.......

Maybe there is some historical reason, such as, it was easier for poachers to hide a 6 inch rod, than a full size one?

**Out of interest I did have a read through the gov/EA local byelaws, and there is nothing which states that you cannot fish with something as small as a handline, or 6 inch rod.


But Im 99% sure that you are going to be dissapointed, and the EA will tell you that it is illegal to use a handline.
Its an instrument. Its not 'angling' theres no angle in it.
Its like taking your rod off your reel, and just using your reel, which would be illegal.
Your requests have been upgraded to the fisheries team, of the EA, and after some debate they will come back to you, and tell you that they cannot list everything thats illegal on their website, it would take too long. But a handline in freshwater is illegal.
Sorry.

I reckon that will be the EA final word on the subject.

 

[Crassy84]

Could we move this debate to another thread. Legalities aside.

I value and respect MCQ Bushcraft. Mike seems like a great guy and the bloke pours out knowledge; to folks like us for free! wrong or right aside, I appreciate your work Mike.

 

[Dave]

I'd figure a handline is more of a reel than a rod. On a pole you don't wind in line.

Its an instrument which is still very popular in most countries, and requires a great deal of skill to use. You see kids fishing off shores in greece after mullet with bread using handlines. Which also look like the top of a skipping rope.
And it is also very probably where the notion of todays modern reel was born. So interesting in that regard. There are written records of the romans using fur and feather to catch fish two thousand years ago, in britannia, an early form of fly fishing.

 

[Joonsy]

I have telephoned the environment agency today and spoken to their legal team, they are sending me all the information on rods and handlines, I will post it for members when I get it. I have also earlier emailed them with a photo of a typical handline referred to in this thread (short stick/club with line wrapped around it) asking if it is legal to fish with such an item in freshwater in england and wales, and likewise will post reply when I get it. I reckon an answer directly from them is more conclusive than opinion.

The whole argument stems around what is in legal terms a ''rod'' to fulfil the conditions of a fishing licence. In my opinion a club/stick just a few inches long only with line wrapped around it is not what is recognized as a fishing rod, it is either a reel or a spool or a handline but it’s not a fishing rod as recognized by the vast majority of people. A fishing licence authorises an angler to fish with rod and line, you cannot buy a licence to fish with a handline, you cannot fish legally without a fishing licence, if the conditions of a licence are not met the licence is invalid. A licence states what you ''can'' fish with, which means you ''can’t'' fish with anything other than the licence permits, it permits rod & line anything else is not authorised and the use of such makes the licence invalid and the instrument then becomes an unlicensed instrument, fishing with an unlicensed instrumnet is an offence under the salmon & freshwater fisheries act.

If an EA bailiff saw you fishing with a 6 inch stick/club with line wrapped around it he would not recognize it as a fishing rod, if he/she reported you for fishing with an illegal/unlicensed instrument and you pleaded not guilty then it would be the law court that decides if your implement fits the legal definition of a rod to fulfil the conditions of the licence. First the court would look to see if there is a legal definition of a fishing rod, if no such definition existed then they would look to see if there were any similar previous prosecutions to use as a precedent, if there were then they would have to abide by the outcome of previous cases and treat any other case in a similar way, if no similar previous case existed then it would be a test case to set a precedent where the law court makes a ruling on what is the legal definition of a rod to fulfil the conditions of a fishing licence, the verdict may come down to how good a lawyer was at convincing a judge that a stick/club of only a few inches long, six inches or so, with line wrapped around it resembled a fishing rod in the normal sense and spirit of the law. Personally if I was shown such an item I would not recognize it as a fishing rod and I don’t believe the vast majority of people would either, I would consider it to be a reel or spool or handline but not a fishing rod, and I believe it would be easier to convince a judge that it was a handline, reel or spool than convince him that it was a fishing rod.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I got a reply to the email I sent to DEFRA. Summary: Ask the EA, they deal with this. Which is what you lot told me, but I did say I would tell you what their reply was. I await a reply to the email I sent to EA.

J

 

[Tony]

This is part of the thread conversation derived from the video posted by jack Bounder (MCQBushcraft - Introduction to Bushcraft series video)
It's not all going to make sense as there's reference to the original vid etc but for the most part the conversation is about the legalities of Fishing...

 

[Joonsy]

I'd figure a handline is more of a reel than a rod. On a pole you don't wind in line.

Backed up by the fact that nobody that sells these items actually advertises them as a fishing rod, I have seem them advertised as hobo fishing reels, handlines, poachers reels, but I have never ever seen one advertised as a fishing rod. It would be difficult to convince a judge that such an item was a fishing rod when in fact it was sold as a hobo reel/handline/poachers reel etc particularly as the buyer was well aware of it’s description when it was purchased. I can almost hear a judge or lawyer asking ''why do you think it is a fishing rod when you knowingly bought it as a hobo reel, handline, poachers reel''. Perhaps people should ask themselves why sellers never describe them as fishing rods.

 

[bowji john]

If I use a telescopic fishing rod - at what point or length does it become illegal?

 

[David LaFerney]

I challenge any sane person to legitimately claim the image below is a fishing rod.

I'm pretty sure that there are lots of rods that are not even as long as that one.

But for the sake of discussion lets say that a rod must be at least 36 inches long. Does that in any way protect the public interest? Or is it just arbitrary - or worse discriminatory? If so, one could argue that you have a civil responsibility to break such an unjust law.

 

[Toddy]

Well, thoroughly fed up trying to keep an eye on this thread, I contacted Natural England and they courteously replied,
"As licences for fishing are issued by the Environment Agency I have
included them in this reply to advise you."

and Lo! and Behold the Enviroment Agency wrote to me too and their Advisor courteously replied,
"A technical colleague has provided the following response to your enquiry:

Fishing with an hand line is illegal.

It is an offence to fish for freshwater fish in England, by any means, without permission from the Environment Agency (s27B Salmon & Freshwater Fisheries Act)

We only issue licences for fishing with a rod and line, or various nets for salmon and sea trout. We also authorise certain nets and traps for eel, lamprey and smelt fishing.
Any other method (including removing fish by hand line) would be subject to a bespoke authorisation, and we would only issue such authorisations for fishing with hand lines under special circumstances (e.g. scientific research).

If you have any further questions, you are welcome to contact us on …… "

So, there you have it.
It's illegal.

M

 

[peaks]

Thanks Toddy - thats a definitive answer..........

 

[Mesquite]

Thanks Toddy - thats a definitive answer..........

But I bet there will be some people who will dispute it

 

[Joonsy]

Well, thoroughly fed up trying to keep an eye on this thread, I contacted Natural England and they courteously replied,
"As licences for fishing are issued by the Environment Agency I have
included them in this reply to advise you."

and Lo! and Behold the Enviroment Agency wrote to me too and their Advisor courteously replied,
"A technical colleague has provided the following response to your enquiry:

Fishing with an hand line is illegal.

It is an offence to fish for freshwater fish in England, by any means, without permission from the Environment Agency (s27B Salmon & Freshwater Fisheries Act)

We only issue licences for fishing with a rod and line, or various nets for salmon and sea trout. We also authorise certain nets and traps for eel, lamprey and smelt fishing.
Any other method (including removing fish by hand line) would be subject to a bespoke authorisation, and we would only issue such authorisations for fishing with hand lines under special circumstances (e.g. scientific research).

If you have any further questions, you are welcome to contact us on …… "

So, there you have it.
It's illegal.

M

''It's Illegal'' --- ''Fishing with a hand line is illegal''

Which is what i have been saying all along, the implement in the video that started this converstaion was a handline confirmed by the fact that the person using it actually called it a handline himself, therefore he was fishing illegally, which is why i criticised the video for not making it clear that the method was against the law and illegal therefore anyone found using it could be prosecuted, fined and get a criminal record. At least if people know it's illegal then they can decide for themselves whether to adopt the method or not in the clear knowlegde of the consequences shoud they get caught. And to the sarcastic remark aimed at me by member copper_head to quote ''somebody think of the children'' then yes that is excactly what i was doing and couldnt care less for being mocked in doing so. Thankyou for the input Toddy and for taking the time and trouble to contact Natural England. ATB.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Did the EA give you any details on minimum lengths for a rod so that there can be no dispute between a rod and a handreel?

Great to have this clarified.

Julia

 

[copper_head]

''It's Illegal'' --- ''Fishing with a hand line is illegal''

Which is what i have been saying all along, the implement in the video that started this converstaion was a handline confirmed by the fact that the person using it actually called it a handline himself, therefore he was fishing illegally, which is why i criticised the video for not making it clear that the method was against the law and illegal therefore anyone found using it could be prosecuted, fined and get a criminal record. At least if people know it's illegal then they can decide for themselves whether to adopt the method or not in the clear knowlegde of the consequences shoud they get caught. And to the sarcastic remark aimed at me by member copper_head to quote ''somebody think of the children'' then yes that is excactly what i was doing and couldnt care less for being mocked in doing so. Thankyou for the input Toddy and for taking the time and trouble to contact Natural England. ATB.

Fair enough, wasn't particularly aimed at you but the hysteria that often arises when law is debated in the context of our hobby. I see it time and time again whether it's wild camping law or knife laws. In this case I'm pleased there is a definitive answer. Sadly it normally boils down to the same grey area it begins with and tbh I generally keep my nose well out. I this case I thought the accusations of hypocrisy towards MCQ were a little rich and I do get sick of seeing people getting slated when they should be praised for passing on the knowledge.

 

[wingstoo]

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56632&p=690332#post690332

 

[mountainm]

Did the EA give you any details on minimum lengths for a rod so that there can be no dispute between a rod and a handreel?

Great to have this clarified.

Julia

Does it look like a rod with a real? Or a pole and line? If so you're safe.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Does it look like a rod with a real? Or a pole and line? If so you're safe.

Damn, I was hoping for something more definitive than that.

J