Knives, catapults, air guns and bows

[British Red]

I believe that you would not have a good reason and certainly not have lawful authority to have a bow on private land (without permission) - you don't have permission to use the bow there so you have no good reason to have it with you. Given the arrows are pointed, it could well be a S139 offense.

 

[ateallthepies]

That's the issue I'm so unsure of, does having no permission to be in a place trump any 'reasonable excuse' you may think you have and nullifying the excuse thus making whatever you are doing some sort of offence?

I know I may not get a definite answer to this as the law can be tricky to navigate and am unsure where to go for an answer but this issue is really bugging me at the moment.

Also if I had land I too would not like strangers wandering around with Knives, bows, catties or airguns either but until I know how I would stand in law what can you do?


Steve.

 

[dwardo]

I believe that you would not have a good reason and certainly not have lawful authority to have a bow on private land (without permission) - you don't have permission to use the bow there so you have no good reason to have it with you. Given the arrows are pointed, it could well be a S139 offense.

If the public have right to access the land then there is no reason he can not use a bow there providing he takes appropriate safetly considerations. If its private land he should not be there in the first place without permission??
The arrows being pointed is a weak argument.,

 

[bikething]

Another example,

Say a person were to wild camp in a privately owned wood(not that this forum would ever condone such a thing). They respect the place and are not being offensive per-say but the owner spots them and calls the police. They have the full bushcraft array of tools with them fixed knife, saw, axe etc...

What would the person wild camping be charged with? Just trespass? Seeing as though all the tools they have are legal to use as they have a 'reasonable excuse'?

Or does being somewhere you don't have permission trump everything and the law will find a way to clobber a person with a charge of being in possession of an offensive weapon.... even though you are not acting offensively?

Steve.

So you're in a wood, without permission... you've cut some wood, had a fire, done a bit of whittling??

you can add criminal damage and theft (of firewood) to trespassing making it a criminal offence, I believe ?

 

[ateallthepies]

So you're in a wood, without permission... you've cut some wood, had a fire, done a bit of whittling??

you can add criminal damage and theft (of firewood) to trespassing making it a criminal offence, I believe ?

Yes in a wood without permission but not had a fire or chopped living wood and not left the premiss with anything I did not bring so still have only committed just 'trespass' no?

Steve

 

[British Red]

If the public have right to access the land then there is no reason he can not use a bow there providing he takes appropriate safetly considerations. If its private land he should not be there in the first place without permission??
The arrows being pointed is a weak argument.,

Merely observing that I believe the police would take notice of someone shooting a bow where the person shooting it was a trespasser. I'm sure there are all manner of offenses they could choose to use to cover it.

ETA - weak argument or not "pointed articles" are specifically covered by S139 of the CJA which the OP brought up. To the letter of the law, there is no difference between a fixed blade knife and an arrow (unless its got a blunt on it). The onus is on the person carrying it to provide "good reason"

 

[ateallthepies]

Merely observing that I believe the police would take notice of someone shooting a bow where the person shooting it was a trespasser. I'm sure there are all manner of offenses they could choose to use to cover it.

Seeing as though armed trespass only deals with firearms I can't see what offence is being committed apart from just trespass? I believe there are offences of disturbing the peace and such like or being in possession of an offensive weapon but if you are not disturbing the peace or acting in an offensive manner I don't know what the charge could be?

Are there any serving police on here that could shed some light with their perspective?

Steve.

 

[bikething]

Yes in a wood without permission but not had a fire or chopped living wood and not left the premiss with anything I did not bring so still have only committed just 'trespass' no?

Steve

Living or dead, the wood is still the property of the landowner...

 

[ateallthepies]

Living or dead, the wood is still the property of the landowner...

Yes I agree but it's not theft until I leave their property with it. If whittling dead wood is an offence then what hope is there for mankind!

steve

 

[boatman]

Many places have bye-laws restricting use of catapults and bows, I believe Epping Forest is one of them. Now, if it is necessary to create such a bye-law for a public open space then logic suggests that where there is no bye-law then roving in some form is legal. Personally I would tend to use blunts as being safer and less likely to cause complications or damage to trees.

Forget about all that GNAS stuff unless you are running a have-a-go archery stand or similar. Today we went to Rough Tor on Bodmin Moor which is part of an access area and there is a list of activities which are prohibited without permission. Camping and lighting fires are no nos but archery and kite flying, for example are not.

Just checked and they no longer list catties and bows in the Epping Forest bye-laws but maybe might be caught with the gun one. Interestingly they issue permits to camp.

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/NR/r...A-45FD-8D40-94CAD0A25449/0/Byelawscancopy.pdf

 

[ateallthepies]

Very interesting stuff Boatman, It seems from a quick look on Wiki that breaching a by-law can be a criminal offence. More research on my part is needed!

Steve.

 

[dwardo]

Merely observing that I believe the police would take notice of someone shooting a bow where the person shooting it was a trespasser. I'm sure there are all manner of offenses they could choose to use to cover it.

ETA - weak argument or not "pointed articles" are specifically covered by S139 of the CJA which the OP brought up. To the letter of the law, there is no difference between a fixed blade knife and an arrow (unless its got a blunt on it). The onus is on the person carrying it to provide "good reason"

Well aware of the law so I can stay on the right side of it. But come on, seriously my field points are no sharper than a pen, pencil, car keys, pointy stick, tent peg. Interpretation is the key rather than scare mongering. There is still no law that anyone has come up with yet in regards to bow or catty use. Trespass on the other hand is very clear.

 

[mrcharly]

" A police officer must believe an item is going to be or is being used to harm for it to be an offensive weapon "

If you're carrying a 3 foot Katana in a public place with absolutely no intention of using it..or causing harm..you'll be arrested. It is an offensive weapon, whether you intend using it or not.. A 3 foot Katana or a 4 inch sheath knife it doesn't matter..they are offensive weapons and unless you can satisfy a cop as to why you are carrying it (them) for a legitimate purpose, you commit an offence. "I don't intend harming anyone officer, I always walk up the high street/ across the park/ over farmer Giles field with this"...not good enough.

A 4" sheaf knife isn't an 'offensive weapon'. This has been done to death on this forum and others.

You also won't automatically get arrested for carrying around swords, spears, axes, etc.

I have several friends who take part in European Historical Combat events and reinactment. They often travel by train, carrying swords, polearms etc. Never once been arrested.

J***, who is irish, was stopped at Birmingham New Street station by two police officers, wanting to know what he was carrying. He had a rucksack containing a sword, hilt sticking out of the top, and a couple of axes. In his hand was an 8foot polearm. He described what they were and where he was going, and the police sent him on his way.

Now if a young man with an Irish accent, a shaved head and doc martins laced up to the knee can get away with it, anyone can.

Justifiable reason for carrying, reasonable attitude. That's all you need.

 

[FGYT]

If the public have right to access the land then there is no reason he can not use a bow there providing he takes appropriate safetly considerations. If its private land he should not be there in the first place without permission??
The arrows being pointed is a weak argument.,

Not if its public land covered by the CROW Act 2000 this has been blanket applied to a lot of public areas including all registered public common land it removes rights to do anything except walk on the land and stop for a picnic
so all the CWA1981 right to forage have been over written if CROW is on the land and pretty much every activity except Rambling is ruled out ( really hate ramblers for pushing this one thro just so they can walk on a little more land while trampling over every body elses rights on a lot of other lands )

permission to do anything else has to be granted by the land owner and can be withdraw at any time etc

 

[FGYT]

Well aware of the law so I can stay on the right side of it. But come on, seriously my field points are no sharper than a pen, pencil, car keys, pointy stick, tent peg. Interpretation is the key rather than scare mongering. There is still no law that anyone has come up with yet in regards to bow or catty use. Trespass on the other hand is very clear.

yes it is interpretation but its already been interpreted that a Butter knife that has no point and no real cutting edge is still covered by S139

but No, a 4" sheath Knife is not automatically an offensive weapon if you carry with no reason its a S139 offence which tho serious isn't as serious as an offensive weapon charge
one you have to prove you had good reason the other the police have to prove its been made adapted or intended to be used as an offensive

ie if you say you carry a tent peg to defend your self then becomes an offensive weapon in the eyes of the law

if you have your 4" sheath knife in your car boot because you forgot to take it out after the weekend bushcrafting and a copper sees it when you load your shopping on tuesday you can be charged under S139

 

[dwardo]

yes it is interpretation but its already been interpreted that a Butter knife that has no point and no real cutting edge is still covered by S139

but No, a 4" sheath Knife is not automatically an offensive weapon if you carry with no reason its a S139 offence which tho serious isn't as serious as an offensive weapon charge
one you have to prove you had good reason the other the police have to prove its been made adapted or intended to be used as an offensive

ie if you say you carry a tent peg to defend your self then becomes an offensive weapon in the eyes of the law

if you have your 4" sheath knife in your car boot because you forgot to take it out after the weekend bushcrafting and a copper sees it when you load your shopping on tuesday you can be charged under S139

Completely agree with everything you said. My point was that an arrow is not an offensive weapon because it is pointy at one end. The reason i have the arrows is for archery not for jabbing people, same goes for the keys and tent pegs, opening my car door and securing a guy string. Simply to say because i have something pointy on me does not a weapon make.
Did now know about the "CROW Act 2000" will have a read thanks.

 

[boatman]

Point is that CROW lists the things prohibited and I do not think archery is in there. Huge shame about the loss of foraging on these areas.