Hi-Lux Surf ?

[Roving Rich]

Any one got one ?
I thought I'd finally made my mind up to get one, but then got put off again.
The Hilux pickup is renowned - virtually indestructable by topgears accout ! A great diesel engine, that will easily convert to veggie oil.
I don't really need a pickup, so I figured the "Estate car" version would do nicely.
But chatting to a recovery driver the other day, he had to recover a Rav 4, that had got stuck in a field with 1 wheel in a 1 inch puddle ! and it wouldn't go anywhere - no diff locks -, The recovery driver refused to take his truck in, so the Rav owner phoned his mate with a hilux surf. You guessed it the hilux got stuck too. Recovery driver says that they are utter rubbish off road ? Is it true ? or is he just another biased LR owner ?
Its a shame if they are, as i figured its probably far more reliable, comfortable and economical than a land rover would be....

Cheers
Rich

 

[Ogri the trog]

I have no experience of the Surf, but I can tell you that I killed my Isuzu Troopers off-road ability by fitting cheap tyres. With the right ones on, it can go virtually anywhere. Whatever you get, check that any spotlights or towing hitch will not interfere with the ground clearance, though sump and diff bash plates are a good idea. Driving off-road is not all mud and spray, and driving inapropriately can get you stuck anywhere.
I would have recommended a Trooper as mine has 180K miles on it and is still going strong - my neighbor has had his for 2 years and its spent more time being repaired than it has on the road.

All the best

Ogri the trog

 

[Rob]

Hi Rich

Anything without having some means of locking the diff, or equivalent, will cease to move anywhere if one wheel looses traction.

With that in mind, rubber is an issue and the type of terrain that you are going to travel over.

My L200 does not have a diff lock, but the weight of it and the suspension travel help - it got round Hardwick last winter in the woods. I would say that within sensible limits the Hilux will perform - just think of how many farm boys use them.

If you get one, you will be able to carry something to help you if you do get stuck on your own. Tap Jed up for a manual winching demo - if you did not see it at the BCUK meet earlier in the year - and make sure you have a good recovery point (or 2) front and back.

Learn a few "unbogging skills" and come with me to an off road site to learn exactly what the vehicle can do safely.

 

[richardw]

75% of off road driving is the skill of the driver. Planning ahead and momentum can get you through most things, when lots of welly will not.As mentioned earlier, on most vehicles one wheel slipping will be enough to stop all forward motion.

I have trialled suzukis, toyotas and LRs and they are all much the same. My present Toyota Colorado ( my 4th) has got me through everything and that on standard road tyres. However if you are doing anything serious a change of rubber is obligatory. I have done 30,000 on my BF Goodrich Mud Terrains and they are awesome. However they are useless in the snow when the Toyota will keep on going.

To answer your question - do not be put off either the Surf or the Hilux pickup, both are superb vehicles.

Richard

 

[bambodoggy]

My L200 does not have a diff lock, but the weight of it and the suspension travel help

Doesn't it? I've got the L200 Warrior and it's got an electric powered touch button rear diff lock. Have to say that so far I haven't needed it but I can vouch for the Warriors off road ability (and yes, before there's any giggling at the back; it does have a rather gimic'y artificial horizon on the instrument panel too! lol ).

A mate of mine has the estate bached hilux and loves it.

Bam.

 

[Rob]

My L200 was an import from Malta - and there seems to be a few things that arent the norm.

Saying that, with some different electronics under the bonnet it eats Warriors for breakfast

 

[bambodoggy]

with some different electronics under the bonnet it eats Warriors for breakfast

But not when the back wheels are slipping! lol

Bam.

 

[EdS]

L200, Ford Ranger inc series Land Rovers (either mechanically or electronically) and many more automatically lock the diff when low ratio is selected. Permanent 4x4 have the option as you don't want the diff to lock at road speed.

It may well have a limited slip diff rather than and out and out diff lock though.

If going off road / on tracks get decent tyre. A 4x2 car with correct tyres will get futher than a 4x4 on poor tyres - ground clearance excepted.

The problem with many 4x4 is they've become to fashionable and so have been taylored to the bulk marked. This is common of crew cab vehicles: Hiluxs surf, L200 etc where they are been bought as 1st cars. It is even happening on Defenders, I know of a number of Dales farmers how are complaining the the gearing is to high (set for road bias rather) and the TD5 has to much turbo lack. As a result they are having to drop in to low ratio to pull trailler where 1 & 2 high ratio used to do it.

 

[havingagiraffe]

L200, Ford Ranger inc series Land Rovers (either mechanically or electronically) and many more automatically lock the diff when low ratio is selected. Permanent 4x4 have the option as you don't want the diff to lock at road speed.

Most 4x4s with permanent four wheel drive (Range Rover, Defender, Discovery, Niva, late Landcruiser) have an open centre differential which can be temporarily locked to equally distribute power to the front and rear axles when traversing difficult terrain. When the centre diff is unlocked for road use the power is free to follow the path of least resistance. ie, if one wheel out of four is on a slippery surface, this wheel will get all of the drive and the other three wheels will remain stationary.

Most 4x4s with selectable four wheel drive (L200, Hi Lux, Series Land Rover, SJ410, early Landcruiser) don't have a centre differential at all. When two wheel drive is selected all of the drive goes to the rear axle. When four wheel drive is selected the power is equally distributed to both axles, regardless of ground conditions.

Serious off road vehicles (some late Landcruisers, some late Japanese pick ups, all Unimogs, Pinzgauers, Gelderwagens and Halflingers) have cross axle diff locks as standard.

Cross axle diff locks are available as an aftermarket accessory for most older Toyotas - the UK's the only place where Landies are taken seriously, the rest of the world prefers the reliability and spares back up (might have contradicted this in my next post ) offered by the Japanese manufacturers and has developed off road equipment to suit local conditions.

Tyres are probably just as influential as diff locks. My mate has a Discovery with centre and cross axle diff locks but Michelin road tyres. On wet grass it just sits with four wheels spinning where my old Series IIA Landy on mud tyres sails through in two wheel drive. We were both quite surprised when we discovered this - we though that diff locks would make his Discovery unstoppable. They don't.

For some reason Land Rovers do seen to cross terrain which floors other 4WDs, even though on paper Defenders are not that much better than the competition. I think this is because Landy drivers (farmers, soldiers, tree surgeons, plant fitters etc) tend to be more experienced in off road driving than owners of shiny Japanese 4x4s.

Basically, what I'm saying is : don't hesitate to get a Hi Lux, it's just as good as a Land Rover in most situations, and a lot better in many.

 

[havingagiraffe]

Any one got one ?
I thought I'd finally made my mind up to get one, but then got put off again.
The Hilux pickup is renowned - virtually indestructable by topgears accout ! A great diesel engine, that will easily convert to veggie oil.
I don't really need a pickup, so I figured the "Estate car" version would do nicely.

Cheers
Rich

A friend of mine nearly bought a Hi Lux Surf to tow his caravan. (Yes, I know caravans are an anti social eyesore and everyone should stick to a hammock and basha )He was advised by the local Toyota dealer that parts could be a problem as all Hi Lux Surf estate's are Japanese spec with many minor differences to the official UK spec Hi Lux 4-Runner estate. I suspect that this was a scare tactic to persuade customers to spend 30% more on a UK dealer supplied Hi Lux estate rather than a cheap Jap spec grey import. There seem to be more unofficial Surfs than official 4-Runners in the UK so I can't see parts being that much of an issue.

Anyone know anything about parts availability / interchangeability for imported Surfs/Prados?

 

[pumbaa]

Apparently the 2.4td engine has a problem with insuficent sized oil ways to no. 4 cylinder !
I have seen quite a few seized by overheating of said cylinder . Apparently you can sort the problem by changing the oil very regulary , but the slightest bit of gunk and your on a bad road !

Pumbaa

 

[MartiniDave]

Remember the weakest links in any 4x4 are the choice of tyre & the nut that holds the steering wheel!
At a recent 4x4 club play day my 1976 series 3 landy saw off a lot of much more expensive machines by all manufacturers.
The keeper on the shoot where I beat has a battered Hi-lux that has to be seen to be beleived, mechanically it just won't die, but the tin-worm is getting it.

Dave

 

[richardw]

Apparently the 2.4td engine has a problem with insuficent sized oil ways to no. 4 cylinder !
I have seen quite a few seized by overheating of said cylinder . Apparently you can sort the problem by changing the oil very regulary , but the slightest bit of gunk and your on a bad road !

Pumbaa

This was only the older engines - any Surf dealer worth his salt will not stock these models any more. The newer models will happily do 200,000 miles with only regular oil changes.

Richard

 

[EdS]

But axle lockers are no good if you don't have the articulations as you still need enough wheels on the ground. This is where LRs scores over Gwagons Land Cruisers etc.

They main reason Jap motors Toyota especially took over was reliability, build quality and deal back up. Not the vehicle ability. Although if you go into the deep bush you'll see a lot of abandond Toyota as where they do go wrong it aint easy to fix. Mind you they're all going that way. I know of some trekking companies that still run Series 3 and 1970s LCs as they can be fixed in the field.

 

[Roving Rich]

RichardW - when you say newer vehicles, what sort of vintage ? I can only afford old bangers ! certainly not a brand spanking one.
I have driven series 3 landrovers, but found the driving position quite ridiculous for my long legs. I certainly wouldn't want to take one any distance.
I have also taken some 2 wheel drive vehicles to some very unlikely locations, but certainly wouldn't consider myself an expert off road driver.
Yup - tyres I'll bear that in mind. Which leads to another question - Tyre pressures. What sort of pressure should you run on mud ?

Thanks for your advice
Rich

 

[richardw]

RichardW - when you say newer vehicles, what sort of vintage ? I can only afford old bangers ! certainly not a brand spanking one.
I have driven series 3 landrovers, but found the driving position quite ridiculous for my long legs. I certainly wouldn't want to take one any distance.
I have also taken some 2 wheel drive vehicles to some very unlikely locations, but certainly wouldn't consider myself an expert off road driver.
Yup - tyres I'll bear that in mind. Which leads to another question - Tyre pressures. What sort of pressure should you run on mud ?

Thanks for your advice
Rich

Not sure about the year, but I have an article at home about it (if the wife hasn't chucked it out). If you want to PM me your address I can post you a copy.

Tyre pressures are a personal thing. I have seen too many people roll them off the rims through running them too low. As long as you get a good footprint I don't think it makes a huge difference. Personally I never drop below 20 psi on my BFG Mud Terrains.

Richard

 

[bambodoggy]

Yup - tyres I'll bear that in mind. Which leads to another question - Tyre pressures. What sort of pressure should you run on mud ?

Rich,

It also depends what tyres you have, if they are big wide knobbly type ones then you need them softer to spread the weight, however if you have thinner tyres then you want them fairly hard so that they cut through the mud and reach the harder ground under neath..... so again there's no definative answer really....depends what tyres you have, what 4x4 you have and how deep the mud is

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[Rob]

But not when the back wheels are slipping! lol

Bam.

Thats half the fun of driving it

 

[MikeS]

This is always a very contensious issue in the 4x4 community. (I'll own up to being a GLASS member "Green Lane Association") In my experience most 4x4 are capable when taken off the tarmac. Vehicles with independant front suspensions are weaker in ruts due to less ground clearance, but in mud it is down to driver skill and tyres. I run a 1999 L200 (import) which has a LSD in the back and run on BFG All Terrains and have never been stuck in mud. I am a strong believer in the addage if you need very aggressive tyres on a RoW you should not be there.

I have no experience of the Surf etc but would have not worries about buying one. The parts will be more expensive than a Landy but you will most likely need a lot less.

One useful website for parts is Milner Off Road in Derbyshire

http://www.milneroffroad.com/index.html

Best of luck.

Mike

 

[EdS]

Mike S

Spot on- that is why I only run the Grizzlies on pay & play / private land. I'll also admit to been a GLASS member.