Gun talk

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Silverback

Full Member
Sep 29, 2006
978
15
England
As rapidboy has already stated it is very much a question of budget but in terms of size I would go for a 20 bore either over and under or a traditional side by side. A 3 shot auto (formerly five until the passing of that stupid damned law :cussing: ) is fine for skeet or squirrel poking but not normally welcomed on pheasant shoots (not my opinion I hasten to add, just a fact). There is then the question of chokes which again is dependant on what you intend to do with it. I would suggest dropping into a reputable gun shop and having a chat with someone who knows their stuff. It is a highly imotive topic that will undoubtedly quickly dissolve into a battle of personal preferences among the shotgun owning subscribers to the forum :D
 

rapidboy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 14, 2004
2,535
27
BB
Silverback said:
It is a highly imotive topic that will undoubtedly quickly dissolve into a battle of personal preferences among the shotgun owning subscribers to the forum :D

Yep :lmao:
 

bushwacker bob

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 22, 2003
3,824
17
STRANGEUS PLACEUS
Due to your age(and stature) Leon,I would start with a 20ga.
I started with a 12ga and finished my shooting career with a 20ga.
It is kinder on your shoulder if you shoot a lot and you can carry 30% more ammo for the same weight and there is little difference in shot pattern.
 
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bluemountaingunworks

Guest
Leon,
I am a licensed firearms dealer in the U.S. and operate a small gunshop/gunsmithing service here in my home town. I have been an avid firearms collector, shooter, hunter, and historian for 19 years. I would like to throw my two cents, or pence, in if I may based on my own experiences and those of my customers.

The first thing I would consider is what gauge you are interested in. While the 20 gauge is perfectly suited to most upland gamebirds and small furry critters, the 12 gauge will give you a wider range of shot choices and killing power for a larger assortment of game. For example, 12 gauge shotguns are used here in the U.S. for everything from quail to Grizzly-it's only a matter of shot size and powder load. I feel that a 12 is a more versatile caliber.

The second thing I would consider is which type of action you prefer. The options are a single-shot break action, double barrel- either OU or SxS, pump-action, and autoloader. Each has is own set of advantages and disadvantages. My personal feelings and the feelings of most of the folks I know is that a pump-action with a 3 " chamber and 24" or 26" barrel is the most ideal. A pump allows you more capacity than a single or double and eliminates the problems/mechanical defects autos are prone to. I seldom have pumps coming into the shop here for repairs, but autoloaders are in all the time for deep cleanings and gas seal replacements.

The next thing to consider is your barrel length and choke combination. A 24" barrel with a modified choke will fit the bill for most game. If you would like to get a little more specific, think about assembling an assortment of various chokes and barrels. A 20" rifled sight barrel loaded with 00 buckshot or rifled slug is a serious deer gun, as-well-as, home invader deterrent. A 28" barrel with a super-full steel choke and # BBB steel shot is a great goose gun. Of course there is a plethora of options in between.

Another thing to think about is the finish. Do you want a flawless, glossy stocked, charcoal blued showpiece or a parkerized, synthetic stocked truck gun. Some manufacturers offer a complete coating of waterproof, camo "plastic" dip. This ensures your gun will be relatively impervious to rain, snow, sleet, mud, etc... although it is still a good idea to dry it thoroughly after each outing. My opinion is that bead-blasted, matte blue metal in a synthetic stock set is the best utilitarian set-up.

Then you have to consider manufacturer. I can personally vouch for both the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500. Both guns are made very well, have been around for decades, offer endless aftermarket add-ons and upgrades, and seldom need repair. Should they ever need repair, there are dozens of vendors who make/stock replacement parts. I can honestly say that the only thing I have ever repaired on either of these models in 19 years is a single firing pin in an 870. Offerings by Browning, Winchester, and Benneli are also good options, although a little more expensive.

Now for a summary of all of the above mentioned. I feel that for utilitarian use and not for collectibility and/or beauty you can not go wrong with an 12 gauge, 3" chambered pump-action, matte/synthetic, American-made shotgun. I feel that it can ,and has, killed just about everything on the North American continent from dove to moose. The parts are cheap, the ammo is available most anywhere, the reliability is unsurpassed, and they make a sweet sound when you chamber a round. Now for my personal favorite-for both nostalgia, collectibility, reliability, and just plain good looks is the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck in 12 gauge! Please realize that these are just personal feelings and the most important thing is what works for you and suits your particular need. I hope this helps and good luck with your decision. God Bless! Jerry
 

leon-b

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 31, 2006
3,390
22
Who knows
thanks very much guys, im looking at spending in the lower region and buying second hand, it will be used for pheseants,pidgeon and the odd fox
me and my uncle will go to the gun shop but i was hoping i could also get some info on here
hope this helps
leon
 

ArkAngel

Native
May 16, 2006
1,201
22
50
North Yorkshire
When i went with my uncle to get his shotgun we got him a "gentlemans gun" (a side by side) 50 rounds of ammo and a gun slip for £195.

The gun finish wasn't the best but the working parts and barrels were 100%. In fact it looked like it had just been dug up out of a field but the barrels are straight and it goes bang when you pull the trigger.....that's all you need IMO Shiney stuff comes later :D
 
Hi Leon,
most important thing is to make sure the gun fits!
You should be able to get a cheap Spanish double for a reasonable price (I paid about £120 or so for my first gun), or if you'd prefer a 12 bore, a Baikal for even less.
Buy it from a reputable gunsmith, of which there are loads in Suffolk, & get them to check the fit. You may need the stock either shortened (by cutting a bit off) or lengthened (by adding a thicker recoil pad). A decent gunsmith won't want to "take you for a ride" as he will always be looking towards repeat custom, recommendations etc.
After you've got it, invest in a lesson or two from a reputable shooting school before the next season opens, take some time during the summer to shoot some pigeons & perhaps check out your local wildfowling clubs, they often have junior sections & will teach you loads about shooting (Alde & Ore W/F & Anglia W/F on the Deben are close to you).
 

leon-b

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 31, 2006
3,390
22
Who knows
i am looking to pay about £150 to £200, what would you say side by side or under over, i like the look of side by sides
also what calibre 12 or 20 ? what kicks less ?
leon
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
I've no problem with hunting an animal, so long as you use what you kill, eat the flesh, use the fur/skins etc. Shooting more that you can use is pointless to me

Just my two pennies worth ;)
 

leon-b

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 31, 2006
3,390
22
Who knows
yes on our shoot whoever shoots the bird takes it home unless he gives it to someone else on the shoot. i sometimes get a brace from my uncle
leon
 

Doc

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 29, 2003
2,109
10
Perthshire
The experts will say that most people shoot better with an over and under compared to a side by side. I agreed with the standard wisdom, but one day borrowed a Side-by-side Holland&Holland (very expensive game gun) and hit everything I aimed at. Normally I am a mediocre shotgun shot at best.

So I would get what fits you.

Leon- I have a copy of 'The Shotgun Book' which has a lot of info on gun fit, pros and cons of different designs and calibres, cartridges, different marques and safety.
If you want it, it is yours, post free.
 
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British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,715
1,962
Mercia
I need to step in briefly here to add a word of caution on bluemountaingunworks post. The first important point is that everything he has posted is correct. In the USA.

In the UK, two important laws apply to this.

The Wildlife and Countryside act 1981 limits the use of high capacity shotguns in hunting


http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/deer1.htm


Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and comply accordingly. Particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5, which makes it an offence to use an automatic or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semiautomatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semiautomatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) - 0117 372 8903 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control.

Notwithstanding this, the Secretary of State for the Environment issues an official decree every two years which amounts to an exemption from the usual prohibitions placed on the killing of specific species of wild birds with Section 1 shotguns. The following thirteen species are at the moment included in this exemption:

Canada Goose
Crow
Collared Dove
Great Black-backed Gull
Lesser Black-backed Gull
Herring Gull
Jackdaw
Jay
Magpie
Feral Pigeon
Rook
Wood Pigeon


The Firearms Amendment Act 1988 saw the removal of pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns - both of which have a magazine capable of holding more than two cartridges - from shotgun certificates.

These weapons are now classed as section 1 firearms and can only be held on a firearms certificate.

Many shotgun certificate holders had to either dispose of these weapons or have them restricted.

What is restriction?
Restriction adapts the shotgun magazine, allowing it to hold no more than two conventional cartridges. A third cartridge can still be legally held in the breech.

Restriction must be carried out in a manner approved by the Secretary of State and carried out by a fully qualified gunsmith. The shotgun must be proof marked and certified by a proof house.

What if I want to acquire a restricted shotgun?
If you plan to acquire a pump-action or semi automatic shotgun on a shotgun certificate, you must ensure that the magazine cannot hold more than two cartridges. Adapted weapons must be proof marked and carry a certificate from a proof house. The magazine must also be non-removable.

Failure to ensure these points may expose you to being in unlawful possession of section 1 firearms.


http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/about/departm/firearms/faqs.htm#12

In a nutshell - holding a semi auto or pump action shotgun with a magazine capacity of more than 2 shots (plus one chambered round) - known as 2+1 configuration will mean that you have to hold it on a Full section 1 firearms certificate as opposed to a sectiion 2 (shotgun) certificate. I addition you will only be allowed to shoot a limited number of "vermin" species of bird - you will be prohibited in law from shooting "game" birds.

Sorry if that was a "heavy" post - important to know where you stand though.

I would suggest a 20 bore as you are a "light framed" 14 year old and graduate to a 12 bore as you fill out (keep the 20 bore though - its a lovely round). In 20 bore configuration, you will have a wider choice in over and under. Go for one with removable chokes if you get the choice and then you can use more choke on clays and about 1/4 and improved cylinder for game

Red
 
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bluemountaingunworks

Guest
Thanks for the info Red! I did not even think about the restrictions on certain firearms in the UK. My apologies to all if the info I gave does not apply; think of it more as entertaining banter. Take care and God Bless! Jerry
 
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bluemountaingunworks

Guest
I re-read the law you posted Red. Does the magazine restiction, 2+1, mean that simply installing a removable plug into the mag tube would or would not comply? Here in the States most hunting regulations require the same 2+1 rule. However, it is an easy and legal fix to simply drop-in a plug(dowel or similar object) into the mag tube that limits it's capacity to 2. The plug is easily removed so you can load to full capacity for home defense or hunting that does not have capacity restrictions, such as most fur-bearers(coyote, fox, bobcat, etc...) It should also be noted that unless the quarry is a migratory species, game laws/bag limits are regulated by the individual states. There are several states in the Eastern U.S. that have limited big game hunting to shotgun only due to population density. Thanks again! Jerry
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
My favorite knock about rifle is a 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) Mauser fitted with a 3-9x32mm scope, a Timney trigger, and a new Israeli 7.62mm barrel.

I've had both .50 cal muzzleloaders and I had a semi-automatic .50BMG Pauza rifle before. Both were a blast (literally) to shoot, but unless the world went Mad Max or you need to go hunting sperm whales, the .50 muzzleloader was more practical.

I've had at various times a couple of dozen assault rifles. The AR-15 is a very accurate rifle, and it has a kit that drops into the receiver in place of the bolt carrier that converts the rifle to .22 Long Rifle. Anyone who says that a .223 (5.56mm) won't drop a deer has never shot a deer with a .223 caliber rifle. One of the best all around one-gun foraging combos on Earth is a 16" barrel 5.56mm CAR-15 carbine with a .22LR drop in kit.

The H&K 91 (civilian G3) is a pig to shoot but accurate and reliable. I think that tthe M-14 (M1A) is a nice rifle but overrated. Of the 7.62mm NATO caliber automatics, the FAL and the AR-10 are probably the best shooting.

I like shooting AK's, but to get an accurate 7.62x39mm AK, you have to be a tad picky. The 5.56mm AK's tend to be a lot more accurate. I've found the Polytechs to be a lot more accurate than the Norincos. If I had to buy one right now, I'd get a Robarms Vepr, which is made in Russia on an RPK machinegun receiver.

A lot of the American survivalist crowd is in love with the rugged looking, survivalist looking, spartan M-6 Scout survival rifle, but I've found it to be something of an overrated, heavy little pig. I'd much rather have just an ordinary 2 pound, single shot .22 Long Rifle caliber child's rifle like a Chimpmunk or Crickett for a survival gun than an M-6. The Chipmunk is great in that you can also get it in .22mag and .17HMR.

All in all, if you really want to be able to live off the land over a long term period in North America, you should have at least one, accurate, centerfire rifle. In other words, something you can reliably drop a deer with at typical North American game killing ranges. Most deer in the USA are killed within 200 yards (180m) or less.

You can buy a lever action Marlin 336, .30-30 caliber, at Walmart brand new and walk out with it that day for $200 (roughly 100 British pounds) - and it's a really good rifle. If you are a good shot and a good hunter, that will suffice plenty. I'd put a scope on it, and, unlike a Winchester, Marlins are built for that.

It's estimated that about 1/2 the deer in the USA that are shot each year are killed with a .30-30. The wonderful thing about .30-30 is that not only is it a capable cartridge, but you can get it at any store that sells ammo, and in many rural areas it's common to find boxes of .30-30 ammo for sale at local gas stations.

Another thing about a lever action .30-30 that is important over here is that not only is it a good hunting weapon and legal everywhere, but it can put out rapid followup shots, and if you get into a fight, espcially if the social situation turns bad (like in New Orleans after Katrina), you can defend yourself with it.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,715
1,962
Mercia
bluemountaingunworks said:
I re-read the law you posted Red. Does the magazine restiction, 2+1, mean that simply installing a removable plug into the mag tube would or would not comply? Here in the States most hunting regulations require the same 2+1 rule. However, it is an easy and legal fix to simply drop-in a plug(dowel or similar object) into the mag tube that limits it's capacity to 2. The plug is easily removed so you can load to full capacity for home defense or hunting that does not have capacity restrictions, such as most fur-bearers(coyote, fox, bobcat, etc...) It should also be noted that unless the quarry is a migratory species, game laws/bag limits are regulated by the individual states. There are several states in the Eastern U.S. that have limited big game hunting to shotgun only due to population density. Thanks again! Jerry
Jerry,

If the gun is capable of ever holding more than 2 rounds then it is a section 1 firearm over here - even if a temporarary plug has been fitted. As such its covered by both laws so no, you can't get around it. Interestingly it is never legal to take large quarry over here with a shotgun - rifles only. I won't go into that law as its not relevant to Leons thread but basically its a minimum of .243 except Scotland which allows .223 for Roe.

Nothing to be sorry about by the way mate - just that the laws here are slightly different on what qualifies as a hunting gun!

Red
 

leon-b

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 31, 2006
3,390
22
Who knows
thanks for all the info guys, i have taken doc up on that offer so hopefully the book will give me some info, what are the laws regarding carrying your gun on foot and in car ??
i think i will go for the 20 bore, what is this good at shooting ? does it kick more than the 12 bore ?
leon
 

rapidboy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 14, 2004
2,535
27
BB
Try and have with a 20 and a 12 by going to your local clay club.
Ask around and show some interest and im sure you will get a few shots and loads of advice, it's also a good place to pick up a gun from someone leaving the sport or moving on.
A lot of people start with game guns and then want to move on to a trap gun.
Also check price of 20 ammo against 12 as it's quite a bit more expensive here.
 

Mikey P

Full Member
Nov 22, 2003
2,257
12
53
Glasgow, Scotland
demographic said:
I know this might sound a daft question but what use is something like a .50 cal, other that to say to yer mates, "Look what I have".

Barrett .50 cals were commissioned as anti-material weapons. Ie, designed to damage equipment. No use for hunting unless you want instant mincemeat.

Yet another rifle surrounded by urban myth and legend and too many videos on 'YouTube' and 'Ogrish.com'.

No idea why we are having this discussion on a UK bushcraft site. Makes me nervous.
 

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