First firesteel experience + compass question

[user24]

Hey guys,

Just got back from a weekend near Ivinghoe (stayed at town farm campsite, it's very good), and had the opportunity to use a firesteel (the campsite rents out fire pits).

They provided little bundles of impregnated tinder but I wanted to try something a bit more natural, so I had a wander and picked up some dry grass and then saw the motherlode - a lovely patch of thistles with fluffy dead heads - and I thought "they'll be perfect".

On the first attempt I lit the thistle, which lit the grass, which.... didn't light the kindling. It was too thick. So we broke the supplied kindling down a bit and added some dry twigs and tried again - this time it worked excellently! The key was building the fire in stages - the thistle lit the grass which lit the twigs which lit the larger bits broken off the kindling, which lit the kindling which lit the logs. Just going from the thistle to the grass to the inch-square kindling was never going to work.

Massive learning experience, and I'm really glad that I didn't read anywhere that thistle heads were good, I just discovered it for myself

So yeah, hugely rewarding. Want to try out flint and steel next time

Camping was really fun, we saw kestrels, discovered that my partner has a natural talent for spotting prints - she followed deer tracks to a spot that was full of stripped bark. Quite a few times she'd see a track long before I could make it out. We'd earlier seen about 8 or 9 muntjac sitting watching us quietly from about 15 meters off. And I got re-acquainted with mapreading. It's amazing how rich an experience you can have in just a few days

One question: what do you guys think about taking compass readings off the path you're on? I did it a few times to check we were heading in the right direction, but I got a niggling feeling it was a bad idea for some reason? So in other words I'd point the direction arrow on the compass down the path, rotate the dial so it lines up with the needle, then take the compass to the map and rotate the frame until the arrow on the dial points north on the map, and then check that the direction arrow points the same way as the path on the map. Effectively using the path 10 meters ahead as you would use a landmark like a church. Is this bad practice?

Cheers!

 

[Retired Member southey]

Great stuff matey its all about the learning by doing for me, with regards to your compass question, if your just wanting to see if your heading in roughly the right direction along a well defined path the yeah no probs, but pathes marked on maps can move on the ground, say through felled woodland, over boggy ground, sandy ground, it would be better to do a resection with prominant fetures to see exactly where you are walk a bit then repeat if you want to make sure your on the right path on the map and heading in the right direction, then take your DOM bearing and crack on, check when ever you feel unsure, then gradually your confidence will grow, than take bearings from the path,

 

[monkey spanner]

using your compass & checking your map, is never bad practice.
Where I go wrong is not checking enough, I think that I know the way then spend time re-checking my navigation.

Nice find with the thistle's, especially when you found out about it your self.

Good job.

 

[ged]

... One question: what do you guys think about taking compass readings off the path you're on? ... Effectively using the path 10 meters ahead as you would use a landmark like a church. Is this bad practice?

Certainly you've been paying attention to your situation, so I wouldn't call it bad practice at all, but I wouldn't necessarily say it couldn't be improved on.

Your path is good in that it might be a useful improvisation in the event that nothing else is handy. It might not be so good for several reasons. Firstly for example it's likely not to be perfectly straight, it's likely to meander a bit. Secondly it's much more likely than something like a church not to be in the same place that it was in when the map was drawn. Thirdly the bit that you've described looking at wasn't very far away. Fourthly you've described only one reference.

Whenever you make a measurement you need to understand what problems there are likely to be with it and how that might affect your use of it. So firstly, the bit of path that you're measuring might happen not to lie in the same direction as the line on the map even if it is in fact the same path. Secondly it might not be the same path at all. Thirdly even if it is the same path and it's in the right direction, it's perhaps on the wide side compared with the distance to the point you're using to take the bearing, so there's a small element of uncertainty there which could be reduced if the distance were greater. But fourthly and probably most importantly, the prudent navigator never relies on one single aid to navigation. He checks and double checks, so that there's at least some redundancy in the measurements. That way a mistake quickly becomes apparent. Did you estimate the distance along the path to the point where you'd be able to see the next clearly identifiable feature for another position fix? Did you note where the sun was? Was the wind a useful indicator of direction at the time? There are all kinds of other clues and cues and you need to develop a kind of thirst for them. It's great fun.

Oh, and you didn't mention the differences between magnetic north, true north and grid north...

 

[udamiano]

sounds like your doing OK, navigation comes with practice practice, and more practice.. The best way of taking any being is to choose a prominent static land feature, Like Southy said, Roads can change over time, Also check the dates on your maps before you go, and make sure you've got the latest version (the OS site will give you the information on versions, etc)
Also remember that your compass points to Magnetic North, which is different to North on your map (Grid north), in your map key on the side of your map, a reference will give you the amount of difference between the two (declination). When teaching navigation, one of the first thing I teach is to measure the amount of paces you take over a given distance (say 100 metres), students are then given a counting line (a piece of cord with beads on). So for instance you walk 70 steps to cover 100metres, as you walk, count to 70, and move a bead along the cord, check your being often with local land features noting that the number of beads you've moved, as this equates to the approximate distance you've traveled from your last bearing.
After a while you tend to do it automatically, Its lots of fun, and if you have Children you can turn it into a game.

 

[user24]

Great point about the path moving southey, hadn't really thought of that.

Thanks ged for the advice, I was checking my position against two reference points when I could see out of the wood, but inside the wood I often had nothing else I could check against. And yes I would say to myself things like "right, if this is the right path it should turn south a little way ahead and there'll be a field on the right". Managed to avoid taking a path which doubled back to where we'd just been by doing that. If you check the map frequently you do start to get feelings about your path like "hang on, this isn't right" Yeah I didn't do any compensation for grid north vs magnetic north. I didn't think it made that much difference to short distances, but it's something I do want to learn how to compensate for.

And great idea about marking distance with knots and paces udamiano. Knowing how far something is, or what a kilometer feels like on the ground is something I do need to pick up. (also getting used to thinking in km not miles is a bit strange).

Forgot to mention, at night we practiced finding the pole star via the plough and cassiopeia, and we saw cephus and the top half of andromeda too. Would be fun to try a night hike navigating by the stars one day (well, one night...)

Cheers fellas

 

[Retired Member southey]

A good thing to do is to walk the route on the map when you plan it, but put your self on the route looking out, you'll find you mostly look and the line of your proposed track and pick out stops and big things of interest, in addition to this see yourself looking at all the features you will see along the route, like the corner of a copse, some buildings, hills and the general lay of the land along your route this last one is the best way of triggering a "hang on" moment for me, should you be going up down flat, should that hill be east or west of me, if its a clear day, where should the sun be in relation to you at points along your route, navigation is fun and once you crack your own techniques its very liberating as it means you can see your self heading further out than the marked trails allow, have fun dude!

 

[user24]

yeah I see, walk through it in your mind when you plan so you know what to expect navigation-wise. Good idea. Agree about the lay of the land, that's one thing I was aware I wasn't paying enough attention to. I paid a lot of attention to which direction the path was going, but not so much attention to whether it should be uphill, flat or downhill. Something to work on for next time.

 

[eel28]

regarding firelighting, might be worthwhile 'turning' your kindling into feather sticks, that should take the flame from your tinder quite easily therefore burning your kindling and into your logs etc a bit quicker.

Didn't realise there was a campsite in that area (and I grew up not too far away) wil have to google it

 

[walshy155]

I don't use firesteel it is to easy, and not very hard to do.

 

[Shewie]

A good thing to do is to walk the route on the map when you plan it, but put your self on the route looking out

That's a great tip Dave, I'll have to try that.

One thing I foul up on is not looking at the bigger picture and end up micro navigating my way round, taking too many bearings and not seeing how the route pans out over a distance. If I get into an area where there's a cluster of options like gate/stiles, boundaries and walls etc, I'll end up checking the map every two minutes instead of seeing how it goes and then remembering the route. very annoying sometimes.

I was doing it again just this weekend on a route in the Lakes, nothing difficult just a 14 mile loop taking in Catbells, Maiden Moor and High Spy. I knew the high point I was heading for but we got to an area near civilisation and I had to double check my route every time we got to a stile or gate. That's just me being dumb though rather than poor navigation I think.

 

[Retired Member southey]

I don't use firesteel it is to easy, and not very hard to do.

but very helpful for chap learning what are good tinder's and what aren't, they may then choose to try a flint and steel with the same good tinder's and see how much processing it takes to make them work with that, then maybe on to iron pyrites and quartz, but i guess there to easy too, i like to mash Honey badgers together till the fur rubbing is enough to create an ember to light my unicorn tails tinder,

 

[walshy155]

but very helpful for chap learning what are good tinder's and what aren't, they may then choose to try a flint and steel with the same good tinder's and see how much processing it takes to make them work with that, then maybe on to iron pyrites and quartz, but i guess there to easy too, i like to mash Honey badgers together till the fur rubbing is enough to create an ember to light my unicorn tails tinder,

Yes, you are right. I will buy a firesteel soon as a back up to my real flint.

 

[ged]

I don't use firesteel it is to easy, and not very hard to do.

Have you tried it standing up in a hammock?

 

[lannyman8]

but very helpful for chap learning what are good tinder's and what aren't, they may then choose to try a flint and steel with the same good tinder's and see how much processing it takes to make them work with that, then maybe on to iron pyrites and quartz, but i guess there to easy too, i like to mash Honey badgers together till the fur rubbing is enough to create an ember to light my unicorn tails tinder,

ahhhhh, Southy, where did you find your unicorn tails????? im all out..... i have been told rocking horse Poop is very good though, think i still have some knocking around in the shed some place, we could do a swop if you like.....

 

[Retired Member southey]

I found one weighing down a list of pass papers for Army broilers!

 

[Paul_B]

All good advice on the compass question given so far. I can only add that compass work is only a part of navigation. Can I suggest learning handrails, bearing off and other simple techniques. Also if you really want to learn navigation try orienteering. That is how I got the feel for navigation. All self taught using common sense with a few inventive techniques I read about.

One technique I like is taking the bearing straight downhill from your position. If you are on a hill it can often allow you to work out which bit of the hillside you are on if you are traversing it.

Always better to take bearings off prominent features clearly seen on the map. Like forks in streams on hillsides or cairns shown on the map or trig points or clearly identified high points or houses you can identify, etc.

However am I right in saying you are in woods on that path? I always struggle a bit myself in woods as I'm more of an open fell walker really.

Another little thing I do is not to over-navigate. Might not sound wise but sometimes it is just best to look at the map and keep the map in your mind and just stride off. In my case the orienteering gave me a good visual memory for maps. I can go to an area look at the map before I set off and I rarely need to look at it again. In fact it often puts me off route if I do look at it and it is only lack of confidence in myself that makes me look at the map in many cases. Learnt to trust yourself and the micro navigation is not as important in most situations I think. Just my opinion.

If you want to learn I can recommend the navigation courses starting with bronze and going up to gold. Heard they are supposed to be good. National Navigation Awards I think they are called. Better to learn from experts than any of us I think. Also Langmuirs book on leadership is an old faithful or old standard in outdoors education. It is kind of the MLTE text book I think. I got one of the later editions and I regularly dip into it when bored. You learn a bit at a time and everytime you struggle on something then a quick dip into that section again when you are home is a great help I find. Navigation is common sense with a few neat techniques thrown in I think. If you have common sense it is easy if not go on a course and practise a lot more. I also learnt maps at school in geology by doing loads of sections. Might sound a bit daft but learn how to take a section or elevation of a straight line across your map. If you haven't got good spatial awareness from the map then doing this might help you to "see" the 2D map in 3D. This I think is a very important skill.

 

[walshy155]

Have you tried it standing up in a hammock?

Haha, no mate, no.

 

[Opal]

Originally Posted by ged
Have you tried it standing up in a hammock?

Haha, no mate, no.

ged forgot to tell yer that he done it after eight cans of Guinness, gets harder after 12 cans.

 

[user24]

However am I right in saying you are in woods on that path? I always struggle a bit myself in woods as I'm more of an open fell walker really.

yeah it was in woodland, hence the lack of distant landmarks. When I reached a clearing I had lovely views and could take bearings from a number of different things, but inside the woods it was more tricky. Nice idea about taking a bearing straight down the hill too.

Another little thing I do is not to over-navigate.

One thing I foul up on is not looking at the bigger picture and end up micro navigating my way round, taking too many bearings and not seeing how the route pans out over a distance. If I get into an area where there's a cluster of options like gate/stiles, boundaries and walls etc, I'll end up checking the map every two minutes instead of seeing how it goes and then remembering the route. very annoying sometimes.

Yeah me too, I was almost checking every time we hit a turn. I kept thinking "I've only just looked at this, I should be remembering it!". Got better on the second day though.

Opal: Guinness out of a can? What sacrilege is this?!