Duke of Edinburgh

[bundubasher]

Howzit!

Read a few of the threads here and there has been universal condemnation of DofE groups and their trainers. After a 3 month expedition with Raleigh I spent a couple of years working in Zimbabwean bush and so feel that my bushcraft skills (hot, arid environments) are pretty good.

Anyway this was a few years ago and now I'm in the UK teaching and leading a few DofE expeditions. I've seen plenty of badly packed sacks, too much kit, all weight on shoulders, crap hanging off etc, and I do my best to correct this, so my question is this:


What major mistakes have you seen groups or leaders commit and what advice would you give these kids?

 

[Shovel]

I've seen instructors tell students to have everything dangling off their pack, not inside or strapped to it. They spent the entire time with mess kits and shoes hitting their knees.

 

[EdS]

too much kit. Slowes them down and tired them out. Better selected kit and less of of it.

 

[Outdoordude]

I did my silver DofE a month ago and my mates took way to many clothes. Like a spare set for each day. When I was on my bronze one guy got told not to have stuff dangling off the side.

 

[robin wood]

I see DofE groups walking past my workshop every day, they carry too much kit but then so did I when I was 16. It's a fantastic award that gets folk doing all sorts of good stuff they would not do otherwise. Most of em do not want to be bushcrafters, mountain leaders or explorers so a bit of mutual suffering with over heavy packs is not the end of the world, hopefully it's all good team building and learning experience.

 

[oldtimer]

I agree about the too much kit. It's not just DofE though. I've seen holiday groups of small children in the Pyrenees overloaded and miserable with too much stuff. I suspect that many of them will be put off for life by the experience and I worry about the safety issue when kids get tired. I really do think leaders have a responsibility to manage the loads that kids carry and ensure a proper ratio between weight and size of pupil and weightand size of pack.
This comes close to home because my wife is only 4'11" and weighs six stone: there is no way she can carry as much as me at 5'8" and 12 stone. We've had 50 years to sort this out. She carried only her own kit and I carried tent, cook kit and food- same as when I'm on my own. Now she's well into her 70's and diagnosed with osteoporosis after a fall in the Pyrenees two years ago, her trekking days are over so we no longer have to squabble about her make-up bag!

 

[nigeltm]

You seem to have the right idea when it comes to their kit and personal admin. The basic rule of pack light and right always applies. So I'll take a different approach to this. From a Mountain Rescue perspective I'd say:

1. everyone carries a map, compass and route card - in some cases groups have become split and the guys without the nav gear/experience become lost
2. share the navigation - if the group relies on one person to do all the nav they won't realise when they guy has made a mistake and is too embarrassed to admit it. Also if they become separated the “new” navigator will need to know where they are and where to go
3. if you get lost STOP WALKING, MAKE A CUPPA AND CALL FOR HELP- it's too easy for a group to get turned around and wander in to a dangerous situation or out of their area. Once out of their area they are much harder to find as they're not where they're expected to be. This applies to a lost group or individual. When they have stopped they should look at protecting themselves from the cold and inaction. Possibly jump into the storm shelter, put up tents, have a hot meal, don’t sit directly on the wet grass …
4. plan ahead - think of the "what if" scenarios. "What if" one of us falls over and twists their ankle? Can we walk them off? Is there a convenient route? Will we make the planned campsite by dark? Anticipate the problems before they actually become a problem.
5. signaling and safety procedures - if things go a bit wrong what should you do? Can you signal a party you can see across the valley or in the mist? They need to know how to use a whistle to signal they’re in distress. They would benefit from something bright and obvious that can clearly been seen from a distance (I assume they’ll have florescent storm shelters). A caylume light stick swung around the head on a length of cord makes a brilliant night time signal to attract the attention of ground and air searchers. Simply put, if it all goes Pete Tong what are the standing instructions.
6. keep your battery charged - communications are vital and everyone should have the DoE leader's phone number as well as each others
7. don't be afraid to call for help - while MR teams joke about DoE getting lost we'd rather 3 or 4 callouts which turn out to be nonevents than have a body recovery or major op on our hands
8. know your limits - this is a difficult one for young adults who don't want to be seen as a wuss but they must be honest when it comes to their physical limitations. If they need a break then the group need to know and they must stop and rest. Exhaustion is a killer even in fine conditions
9. eat/drink little and often - stay hydrated and keep the blood sugar topped up. Not only good for morale but an alert walker is less likely to stumble and injure themselves

To be honest, we expect the DoErs to make mistakes. When they do we hold the instructors responsible. In some cases the instructor may be a member of Mountain Rescue (I can think of a couple off the top of my head). Other times they are someone with a bit of outdoorsy experience who has been shoehorned in to the role. So for you as an instructor I'd suggest:

1. know your kids - plan the routes so you can keep a close eye on the trouble maker / egotist / plonkers. Also take in to account their physical and emotional limitations
2. know YOUR limits - plan everything so that they have suitable supervision and checkpoints enroute
3. know the terrain - even in the summer Dartmoor or the Beacons can be deadly. You should be familiar with the area so you can properly manage their routes and you know enough to be helpful to MR if there is a problem
4. get qualified/experienced - consider getting MLTB summer/winter certification
5. document important info - for example, make sure you have a good medical history for each DoEr. You hope not to need it but if you do … Also what kit does each group have available
6. call for help before it becomes a major situation - sometimes instructors are reluctant to call for help as they’re afraid they’ll look like plonkers
7. if it goes Pete Tong - THINK don’t panic - too often the instructor will go in to headless chicken mode, do the wrong thing and forget important things. For example, in one case a lost group were carrying a SPOT emergency beacon which could have given us their GPS coordinates but he didn’t mention this until hours in to the search.
8. stop them before they become a problem - if at a checkpoint someone in the group is starting to struggle think about pulling them out before they become a casualty.
9. check their equipment - don’t be afraid to stop them going out if they don’t have the right kit. Some instructors will let groups go out even if they’re not dressed or equipped appropriately. I can think of one case where a girl was allowed out wearing denim hotpants! At the end of the day if they have not followed instructions and the kit list it is their fault but your responsibility!

Hopefully this isn’t too long winded and maybe a bit helpful. Finally I’d suggest trying to get your local Mountain Rescue / Search and Rescue Team in to give a presentation to the groups. Most teams will be happy to spend a little time with groups giving advice and instruction on how to handle the bad situations.

Nigel.

 

[ged]

When we did DoE at school we rarely saw our teachers outdoors. They just gave us a few lessons in the classroom and sent us off into the hills. We had a great time, even if we did sometimes get wet and cold.

Mistakes are a necessary part of the education process, and very effective they are too. I can still remember sleeping in soggy bedding that stank of paraffin and that was nearly fifty years ago.

The trick will be to let the kids make mistakes without putting themselves in danger, or at least without getting fired for letting that happen.

 

[Bonzo Frog]

Sorry duplicate post

 

[Bonzo Frog]

I used to teach Dof E for the Air Cadets and I found a lot of parents thought that their little darlings should be taking all sorts of stuff that the kids didn't need no matter how much we as instructors tried to challange their ideas. This was particularly true of those doing Bronze and the parewnts weren't keen to spend a lot of money in case the child decided it wasn't for them which I can understand. We used to have a "pool" of kit on the Squadron that we used to issue but being ex forces kit it didn't fit half the kids espacially the smaller girls. Hopefully they will all learn from the mistakes they make on practise expeditions prior to spending 2 to 4 nights out on the likes of Dartmoor by themselves.
I fully endorse what Nigel has said as well. Having been a member of a search and rescue team in Worcestershire and having close contact with MR teams in the Lakes Dof E groups can learn an awlful lot from their experiences.

 

[EdS]

think Nigel sms it up nicely. Ones I've been involved looking for tend to be main due to:
a) getting lost - either due to weather on lack of skills. Maybe worth more sessions on map and compass first

b) exhaustion - too much is part of the issue some times. It is also worth noting that kids ar egenerally not as fit as they where 20 years ago. MAybe there should be some work on their fitness levels before letting them loose in the "wild"

c) group dynamcs - basically fall outs and the groups splitting. Difficult as teenages wit hbe teenages

 

[santaman2000]

...It is also worth noting that kids ar egenerally not as fit as they where 20 years ago. MAybe there should be some work on their fitness levels before letting them loose in the "wild"....

I don't really know anything about DofE but this statement sums up a big disparity in public opinion in general. We are advised by our Drs, and healthcare professionals to get some excersize and get into better shape; then when we decide on a specific type of excersize (in this case hiking) we're told we're not fit enough and need to get into better shape first?

 

[nigeltm]

I don't really know anything about DofE but this statement sums up a big disparity in public opinion in general. We are advised by our Drs, and healthcare professionals to get some excersize and get into better shape; then when we decide on a specific type of excersize (in this case hiking) we're told we're not fit enough and need to get into better shape first?

The problem is DofE isn't just a bit of a hike for most of the participants.

The basic Bronze award is typically a 2 day hike of around 20 miles in reasonable lowland terrain, carrying your whole kit for the weekend. While for many of the outdoor enthusiasts on here that isn’t a big deal, the kids who take part in DofE may not even know what a rucksack is, let alone take part in any regular exercise other than walking 100m to the nearest McDonalds!

By the time you get to the Gold award you're looking at a multi day hike in "wild country". Hopefully by then they should be fitter and more clued in but at the end of the day many are still teens who have more important things in their lives like checking FarceBook for the latest X Factor results.

Many of these kids need to build up to the DofE hikes. I hope that their instructors would encourage them to take more exercise and prepare and most do. Unfortunately you do see some on the hill who should not be there.

http://www.dofe.org/

 

[EdS]

Dof E do over night backpacking trips with big sacks rather than short day hikes. Most of the kids, especially the inner city ones, really walk more than a mile or two per day these days - let alone with a sack on.

There is a lot less of the generally running around, cycling and the like than when I was of an age to start D of E. Hmmm, damn that was more like 30 than 20 years.

 

[nigeltm]

c) group dynamcs - basically fall outs and the groups splitting. Difficult as teenages wit hbe teenages

This is possibly the biggest risk!

When my daughter did her Bronze in her group there was her, another girl and 4 boys. The boys were overly confident and full of themselves. Walking through some fields they decided to wind up some cows. Cows being cows they came trotting over and the kids ran thinking they were about to be trampled! Unfortunately the boys went one way, the girls another. The boys had the route card and teacher's contact details. As the advice on the DofE website was that for Bronze maps were optional this could have been a big issue as the group had split. Luckily it was a easy area, I'd insisted my daughter took a map and I'd taken her out a couple of times on simple nav exercises. Not having the routecard she ended up working out their location and planning a route back to the campsite.

If this had been in more difficult terrain or the weather had been poor it could have been a diffrent story.

When I picked her up the next day I had a few choice words with her teacher regarding the prep and instruction given to his groups!

 

[santaman2000]

nigeltm and Eds: That's my point. Our society has become so sedate that what should be no big deal has become a big deal. Not just the short 20 miler (in 2 days!) but almost any form of real excersize.

-Kids cain't participate in school sports without first having a medical exam
-Don't take up jogging without first consulting your Dr.
-warnings not to get on certain carnival rides

In other words we now just assume that it's normal to be unfit. I'm not disputing that, sadly, that assumption is usually true; rather I'm lamenting it.

 

[nigeltm]

nigeltm and Eds: That's my point. Our society has become so sedate that what should be no big deal has become a big deal. Not just the short 20 miler (in 2 days!) but almost any form of real excersize.

-Kids cain't participate in school sports without first having a medical exam
-Don't take up jogging without first consulting your Dr.
-warnings not to get on certain carnival rides

In other words we now just assume that it's normal to be unfit. I'm not disputing that, sadly, that assumption is usually true; rather I'm lamenting it.

Can we have a "Like" button on here? I couldn't agree more!

As a society we're "normalising" ill health. I think it's more to do with the compensation culture than anything else. Organisations are covering their backsides by showing they have taken "reasonable" precautions to prevent harm or injury to their customers/members. Unfortunately their definition of "reasonable" is over the top and discourages exercise.

bundubasher - sorry for going off topic. Normal service will be resumed!

 

[Bowlander]

They need to be taught to respect other countryside users. Back in July a group came past ours - they had taken a shortcut across three hay fields with standing grass, left 2 gates open letting cattle into a sssi haymeadow, and knocked 2 walls down while climbing them. There was no sign of supervisors while this was occuring. When I asked them what they were doing they just said DoE and carried on. The landowner hadn't been informed or shown any risk assessment before the 3 minibus loads of louts got dropped off.

Not sure what Phil would have to say about it!!

 

[bundubasher]

No problem Nigel - all contributions gratefully received. (Thanks for your long first post - all read, marked, learnt and inwardly digested.)

I esp. understand the fitness thing - I was shocked by my own poor fitness and I have gained quite a paunch to work off. I haven't taught many boys but a couple of girls' schools - DofE pool kit is always big and so I've had a shocking time fitting packs on really lightweight girls with no hips or shoulders. Another thing has been kit failure - especially waist belt clasps/fittings.

The school is in charge of packing/navigation etc but I always have to stop groups 15mins out to repack bags, tighten straps and explain that weight should be carried on the hips not shoulders. Luckily once these things are sorted out then students can concentrate on the Nav etc and start to enjoy the day rather than suffer it.

Teams are between 4 and 7 and they carry all food and tents etc needed for the night camp. On assessment expeditions we monitor them remotely, so they are "independent" and carrying decent loads - I will have to say that well meaning parents can be a pain in the ****: just because you used a berghus cyclops all over europe does not mean it is the appropriate bag for your skinny 15yrold daughter!

 

[Firelite]

My daughter and son did this(or doing - son is out this week in wales doing his final bit for the gold) . I remember laughing like a drain a few years ago when my daughter told me that when she arrived on site to do her bronze there were some of the little princesses getting out of mummy's 4x4 clutching carrier bags....with hair straighteners sticking out the top! As she said to me afterwards, "...they weren't even gas powered - where did they think they'd plug them in?"
On that basis, a little bit of realism would go a long way. I believe they call it "Expectation Management" nowadays.