Care when travelling to America.

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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
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Florida
.......What a sensible approach but that last sentence?!!!"Prove I smuggled cocaine!" Answer is "We got it from your @rse after you flew into the country!" Not comparable to something that is legal or not legal.....

Actually that's exactly what it is. Ivory has been made illegal to own. They have written in certain exemptions to the law. All they have to do is prove you've broken the law (owning ivory) If you claim to qualify for an exemption (in this case the exemption is for pre 1947 ivory?) then you are responsible to prove you qualify for said exemption.

Much the same as being stopped there with a shotgun while on the way to a shoot and the officer asking to see your license.
 

TarHeelBrit

Full Member
Mar 13, 2014
687
3
62
Alone now.
That's outrageous! Essentially legalised theft.

Yeah tell me about it. Over here the coppers can confiscate your money and belongings even if the owner hasn't commited a crime it's called "civil asset forfeiture". There's articles online about how police depts and town halls draw up wish lists of desired cars, tv, jewelry, etc and split the proceeds

Also the supreme court has upheld a traffic stop even though no law was broken. Here in NC a trooper (I beleive) pulled a car for a broken taillight even though state law only requires one working brake light. During a search of the vehicle drugs were found and he was charged with posession-intent-to-supply. His lawyer tried to get it dismissed because it was the result of illegal stop and search. The courts siding with the establishment released a statement that a police office can stop any vehicle if he/she thinks there's an infraction. Effiectivily giving cops carte blanche to stop anyone they feel like.

Sorry if this offends any American members but it has to be said America no longer land of the free.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Yeah tell me about it. Over here the coppers can confiscate your money and belongings even if the owner hasn't commited a crime it's called "civil asset forfeiture". There's articles online about how police depts and town halls draw up wish lists of desired cars, tv, jewelry, etc and split the proceeds......

It'd be one thing if it were true. It ain't.

What we confiscate becomes the property of the state (regardless of what department confiscates it) Some of it can be reused by state or lower offices if it fits with needs (cash, weapons, autos, vessels) but the vast majority is either auctioned off or destroyed.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
.......Also the supreme court has upheld a traffic stop even though no law was broken. Here in NC a trooper (I beleive) pulled a car for a broken taillight even though state law only requires one working brake light. During a search of the vehicle drugs were found and he was charged with posession-intent-to-supply. His lawyer tried to get it dismissed because it was the result of illegal stop and search. The courts siding with the establishment released a statement that a police office can stop any vehicle if he/she thinks there's an infraction. Effiectivily giving cops carte blanche to stop anyone they feel like.....

Not exactly. The court held that although no law was broken, the cop's stop was legal (and thus the search as well) because he "reasonably believed" that one had been broken.

Admittedly he was wrong and as a traffic cop should have known better. Are you sure it was a state trooper as opposed to a local cop?
 
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TarHeelBrit

Full Member
Mar 13, 2014
687
3
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Alone now.
Not exactly. The court held that although no law was broken, the cop's stop was legal (and thus the search as well) because he "reasonably believed" that one had been broken.

Admittedly he was wrong and as a traffic cop should have known better. Are you sure it was a state trooper as opposed to a local cop?

No not 100% sure. I tried to find the article on channel 5 but had no luck, it could well have been a local cop. I have a problem with "reasonably beleived" as to me that opens up a whole new can of worms. Although I must add in the cops defense it is nigh on impossible to memorize every law, particularly today with all these new fangaled laws coming out.
 

Laurentius

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 13, 2009
2,437
631
Knowhere
What kind of documentation would one need to convince an ignorant customs official that a musical instrument was antique? I have an antique flute with Ivory parts, dating from the early 1800's an expert can date it from the makers mark, but would I need something like an official valuation certificate to prove it when travelling abroad?
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
I was speaking to a friend of his last night and the pipes were dated and obviously old. But the customs official stated that he had the right to seize them as they'd been brought in and no matter what the date ivory was to be considered forfeit if brought in.
 

Laurentius

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 13, 2009
2,437
631
Knowhere
Whilst on the subject, I wonder if anyone ever encounters difficulties with countries that have strict laws on the import of alien species and organic materials whether an antler handled wooden walking stick would give them the heebie jeebies?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
No not 100% sure. I tried to find the article on channel 5 but had no luck, it could well have been a local cop. I have a problem with "reasonably beleived" as to me that opens up a whole new can of worms. Although I must add in the cops defense it is nigh on impossible to memorize every law, particularly today with all these new fangaled laws coming out.

That's why I asked. As you know by now, most State Troopers are first and foremost traffic cops. They would be the most likely to best trained and familiar with auto and traffic laws. Whereas local cops are more trained on broader subjects (and generally even that training is only what their departments can afford)

What kind of documentation would one need to convince an ignorant customs official that a musical instrument was antique? I have an antique flute with Ivory parts, dating from the early 1800's an expert can date it from the makers mark, but would I need something like an official valuation certificate to prove it when travelling abroad?

To ba honest, if I had something that valuable I'd have such a certificate anyway. If for no other reason than insurance purposes. Think how disappointed you'd be if an airline lost it enroute or damaged it and the only recompense they'd pay was for "depreciated a secondhand musical instrument?" (like the depreciation on a used car?) And were I a customs agent I would care less about makers' marks or owners statement about antiquity. I'd certainly require whatever legal documentation the regs specify.

I was speaking to a friend of his last night and the pipes were dated and obviously old. But the customs official stated that he had the right to seize them as they'd been brought in and no matter what the date ivory was to be considered forfeit if brought in.

Was it a customs agent? I ask because your OP implied it was due to NY state law. Like you, I find it incredulous that Federal law wouldn't exempt antiques.

Whilst on the subject, I wonder if anyone ever encounters difficulties with countries that have strict laws on the import of alien species and organic materials whether an antler handled wooden walking stick would give them the heebie jeebies?

Wood can be difficult here if it's in a raw form; not so much for something painted or treated (such as a walking stick) I've also heard that Australia can be hard on wood imports but I have no 1st hand knowledge.
 
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Jul 30, 2012
3,570
224
westmidlands
I do not believe narwahl, walrus or spermwhale teeth type ivory is exempt, so it's a bit hairspring isn't it. like a thread I was reading yesterday, you have to have the law clarified as coppers are just people in uniform and you get ones that know the law (cid) and beat coppers who a large proportion where about the same as you and me a few years ago. some are full of themselves and empty of knowledge or even reason. I can hardly see any antique ivory being banned in the us as the ruling elite have a fair few bob themselves.
 

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