Neanderthals - more sophisticated than previously thought?

[Bravo4]

The folktale theory is interesting but not really tenable, most people came into europe long after the last neandertal died.

The last neandertal. What a lonesome thing to be the last of a species, noble somehow too, or so I imagine.

So what did the neandertals in, or is that still(always be) somewhat in question? Did there larger bodies and need for more energy stress them more in some way during lean times, compared to H.sapien, or possibly have nothing or little to do with it?

I would be very interested in a "Folktale Theory" thread. I am still hunting about for Ghillie Dubh info; though I did find an interesting description of (a) Tengu.
"While human myth attributes all sorts of magical intervention in their lives to the Tengu - both good and bad - the vast majority of these incidents are nothing more than imagination run amok. While Tengu certainly do possess vast magical powers, they have little or no interest in using these gifts to either aid or harm humans. Though they do sometimes intervene to return lost children to their parents, they do so out of a wish for privacy, as wandering humans in their forest detract from their single-minded practice of intellectual discipline. "

 

[HillBill]

No lizards, alien or otherwise were mentioned or used in the making of this youtube

 

[HillBill]

So what did the neandertals in, or is that still(always be) somewhat in question? Did there larger bodies and need for more energy stress them more in some way during lean times, compared to H.sapien, or possibly have nothing or little to do with it?
"

My thoughts on this would be agressive expansion of H.Sapien probably driving neanderthal from their roaming grounds. Once in unfamiliar territory the knowledge they had of their previous land would not really help them and the slow decline would start.

 

[gregorach]

Yeah, there's a fair bit about that in the article linked from the OP:

Over recent years the perception of Neanderthals has significantly altered, with strong indications that they may have been just as adept at survival as their anatomically modern counterparts, with one or two key differences that may have caused their downfall.

As mentioned in the paper, Neanderthals weren’t capable of throwing spears, which meant that big game had to be tackled close up, increasing the risks of injury and death over someone launching a spear from a relatively safe distance, but the energy expenditure would also have been considerably greater. This might not have been to detrimental in the absence of competition, but once that competition arrived in the guise of anatomically modern humans (AMH), it’s likely that the balance tipped in favour of the moderns.

Not only would AMH have had to spend less energy hunting, but it would also have been relatively easy for AMH to rob Neanderthals of their own food. [...]

Greater problems may well have arisen with the advent of AMH at the same time as climate change as Upper Palaeolithic cooling kicked in, meaning that not only would Neanderthals have been obliged to alter their own hunting strategies, but they found themselves in competition with AMH for the prime sites. We can imagine how the somewhat rigid strategies of Neanderthals would have made them vulnerable to being out-hunted by AMH, and at risk of ambush when guarding or transporting freshly killed meat. The fact that AMH could have thrown spears not only at prey but Neanderthals too would have given them a doubly competitive edge, and although such events may have been rare at first, over the course of about 15,000 years that AMH and Neanderthals shared Eurasia, deteriorating climate and AMH populations which were increasing, could between them have been major contributory causes in the downfall of Neanderthals.

There is another paper by Professor Sørensen referenced, which I haven't read yet, but goes into greater details about this: Demography and the Extinction of the European Neanderthals [PDF - 948 kB]

 

[locum76]

interesting stuff.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

Er, I thought the neanderthals were alive and well and can be found drinking in Rhyl on any Saturday during the summer season, or am I barking down the wrong evolutionary trouser leg here?

 

[Bravo4]

Maybe neandertals were actually too peaceful, overly thoughtfull and un-warlike...

My knowledge on the subject comes mostly from the movie "Quest for Fire": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Fire_(film)

So I am playing catch-up on alot of this and found this link useful:
Neanderthals and mtDNA http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/neanderthals/mtdna.html

...and found this link to be......well, I'm not sure, have not read it entirely but is this a possibility or just a twisting of available info into someone's pet theory?
The Neanderthal theory of autism, Asperger, and ADHD
http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm#Music

 

[gregorach]

Hmmmm... It would take quite a while to assess it properly, but it seems to be leaping to some rather extreme conclusions based on very weak evidence. The one or two references I've checked so far don't seem to support the interpretations... Then there's the completely unsupported statements such as "Matriarchal societies are a prime indicator of Neanderthal genes", which set off this klaxon in my head...

I could be wrong though - like I said, it would take a good while to study properly, and I'm pretty well out of my depth. Looks pretty tenuous though, and I don't see any discussion of it in the peer-reviewed literature.

 

[Tadpole]

Hmmmm... It would take quite a while to assess it properly, but it seems to be leaping to some rather extreme conclusions based on very weak evidence. The one or two references I've checked so far don't seem to support the interpretations... Then there's the completely unsupported statements such as "Matriarchal societies are a prime indicator of Neanderthal genes", which set off this klaxon in my head...

I could be wrong though - like I said, it would take a good while to study properly, and I'm pretty well out of my depth. Looks pretty tenuous though, and I don't see any discussion of it in the peer-reviewed literature.

I'm going to look dumb, but how can you tell the "type of society" from a few bone fragments?
I'm clearly missing something deep and meaningful

 

[gregorach]

Well, that's the point - you can't. The writer seems to have made a bunch of dodgy assumptions about Neanderthals and then drawn some iffy comparisons with various symptoms of autistic spectrum disorders (based on self-reporting via an online quiz).

I've also noticed that most of the references cited to support AMH / Neanderthal interbreeding (a) don't actually mention Neanderthals specifically, and (b) pre-date the most recent DNA work, which I believe indicates no interbreeding, as discussed up-thread.

I'm not going to expect to see this paper appearing in the scientific literature - I think any reviewer would shred it. It seems to be a "cargo cult" paper - something that looks like a scientific paper (it's got the right sections, it's got references, etc.) but is actually just a bunch of dressed up handwaving.

Still, I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time...

 

[Bravo4]

I guess this statement doesn't really seem correct now either:
" There is no compelling evidence for artificial warming with fires or tailormade clothes in Neanderthals."
Thanks for your take on that. Not my area AT ALL but reading more, seems pretty thin, bordering nonsense.

"Cargo Cult", have not heard that in years. Mondo Cane?
Anyway there are some neandertal links in the reference section, the flute page is interesting, but again too many words for this simple brain to discern. If they had music, neandertals were certainly more sophisticated than I was previously aware. So to answer the question in the title of this thread, yes.

 

[gregorach]

"Cargo cult science" was a term coined by Richard Feynman...

 

[Toddy]

It could be something as simple as the social situation re pregnancies.
Chimps and other great apes usually have even spaced ones, we don't.

Gorillas only reproduce every six to eight years, chimps every three to six years, and orangutans every six or seven years.

Given sufficient food and energy within the family group, human females are quite capable of producing healthy babies every two years for nearly thirty years. I know of many families where ten to fifteen children was common, and each child then went on to similarly reproduce such numbers. Contrary to common belief, breast feeding does not significantly inhibit further pregnancy.
If HSN simply spaced out their pregnancies, say every five years or so, then humans would outnumber them in a couple of generations.
Add that to a changing climate and they lost out.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Bravo4]

"Cargo cult science" was a term coined by Richard Feynman...

Feynman used to hang out just up the hill from where I had my little Rio Grande trip a few weeks ago. Birthplace of the you know what. From Clovis points to fat man and little boy......I've become lost in thought:yikes: ....most of which has just been deleted from text.....you're welcome

thanks for the thread

 

[Nyayo]

Have a look at 'The Inheritors' by William Golding - what happens when 'we' meet the Neanderthals...
N

 

[Tengu]

But thats just a story.

There is one big area in which we are very different from the Neandertals...our legs.

Our legs are adapted for long distance walking...or running. (as were H Erectus, you will note, a more successful and less localised person) the Neandertals were not so well specialised and though they were very strong, and had good endurance, were probably not suited to entrance in a marathon.

So I suspect they found a good all round resource and sat upon it, while their neighbours were more nomadic. This would have eventualy resulted in a fragmentation of population, also one criticaly vunerable to infectious dieseases. (imagine what an outbreak of measles would have done to them)

Where did you get the quote on Tengu, Bravo4? I have not seen it before. De Visser has a lot to say on Tengu but he merely reports, doesnt speculate
I rather suspect its something to do with extreeme shamanism mixed up with the Shugendo (who were also rather odd.) Certainly the Tengu do not seem to be memories of a lost race, even though they take the place of our elves.