Wild Boar in Kent

[Geoff Dann]

If it didn't would we still have them? Boars have been around for a long long time. The habitats are still there, the boars wouldn't be if the habitat wasn't

Your experience only covers a tiny percentage of time. No such observations can be used to say whats good or bad for the forest in the long run. You are also a country boy, and country folk take a dim view on anything which could threaten or damage their livelyhood. Its the same here. But that doesn't mean that which countryfolk dislike, is bad. We cause more damage than anything, the UK was entirely covered by forest 5000 years ago, now look at it. If it was just boars populating our small island, i bet the forests would still be there, the wolves, bears, lions, auroch, beaver etc would still be there.

On the bright side, many species we persecuted into oblivion are now bouncing back strongly. Otters are thriving. Red Kites will eventually reclaim the whole of the British Isles, including the cities. Beavers have been re-introduced and are doing well.

Modern civilisation can't be blamed for the absence of lions in Europe though. They were wiped out by the Romans, who captured them in order to send them to be slaughtered for the entertainment of the masses. The more dangerous the beast, the more highly it was prized by the Romans.

[Geoff Dann]

As myself and others have said in previous posts, "hogs are adaptable." They'll thrive in almost ANY habitat or environment. They can completely devastate a particular habitat then continue to thrive in the habitat that replaces it.

They will only do that if they are limited in space, or nothing is controlling their numbers.

[santaman2000]

At the time, the poor had very little in the way of hunting rights. They weren't even allowed to take rabbits. Access to the royal forests (e.g. the New Forest in Hampshire and the Ashdown Forest in Sussex) was strictly controlled. There was even a giant fence around the whole of the Ashdown Forest (which at the time covered half of the area between London and the South Coast). The fence had about 30 "gates" (for people on horseback) and "hatches" (for those on foot.) The authorities kept very close tabs on what came out of that forest.

Yeah, I actually knew that (although not the details such as the fence) but it's still a difficult concept for me to wrap my head around. I suppose especially as in our early history hogs were treated as the landowners property (still are to a large extent) or as trash game on public land. Now widely considered as vermin on public land.

But then, they aren't native here apart from a smaller species (javelina) in an equally small range in the Southwest.

[santaman2000]

They will only do that if they are limited in space, or nothing is controlling their numbers.

Partl true. But as I said, you no longer have natural predators to control theire numbers. Even with natural predators (and we still have plenty) plus heavy human predation, plus active poisoning programs, they are proving impossible to control. In only 2 decades they have spread from a handful of Southern states to cover the entire lower 48 and ar beginning their invasion of Canada (which has an even larger supply of large predators)

And I said "partly" true because nothing, absolutely nothing, will limit their space. They WILL expand and they WILL overbreed to fill their space.

I suppose I do secretly hope (or really not so secretly) that Their presence in Florida might control the invasive snakes. Unfortunately instead they seem to be wiping out our native species while the large constrictors (also not native) are defeating all efforts to control them and are increasing their range.

The point is: eliminate them BEFORE they re-establish or you won't be able to control them.

[HillBill]

Eliminate? Thats not the way of life my friend

[HillBill]

I've noticed over the last 5 years or so that most of nature is starting to re assert itself in the world of man. Largely unnoticed too.

On the bright side, many species we persecuted into oblivion are now bouncing back strongly. Otters are thriving. Red Kites will eventually reclaim the whole of the British Isles, including the cities. Beavers have been re-introduced and are doing well.

[santaman2000]

Eliminate? Thats not the way of life my friend

Possibly in your case, the boar being a native species originally, this may be true. The possible arguement for their elimination being that they've been gone for so long that they "might" no longer be considerred native and destructive to the current excepted environment. I confess I don't know the right answer.

In our case, hogs being non-native, elimination is indeed the goal; but also impossible it would seem.

[Geoff Dann]

Partl true. But as I said, you no longer have natural predators to control theire numbers. Even with natural predators (and we still have plenty) plus heavy human predation, plus active poisoning programs, they are proving impossible to control. In only 2 decades they have spread from a handful of Southern states to cover the entire lower 48 and ar beginning their invasion of Canada (which has an even larger supply of large predators)

And I said "partly" true because nothing, absolutely nothing, will limit their space. They WILL expand and they WILL overbreed to fill their space.

I suppose I do secretly hope (or really not so secretly) that Their presence in Florida might control the invasive snakes. Unfortunately instead they seem to be wiping out our native species while the large constrictors (also not native) are defeating all efforts to control them and are increasing their range.

The point is: eliminate them BEFORE they re-establish or you won't be able to control them.

In the US, they are an invasive species. In the UK, they are native. As long as their numbers are kept in check, they will not cause a problem. You have to get your head around the difference in scale. In the US there is a vast range of territory for them to potentially invade and upset the existing ecological balance. In the UK their options are severely limited in terms of where they can go, and they aren't likely to upset the ecological balance anyway because they are native to these islands.

Alien invasive species are generally only harmful when they are aliens. In their home territory they are more likely to be in balance, or even rare (e.g. red star thistle, which is a rare, protected native species in the UK but a serious problem weed in various other parts of the world where it is an alien invader.) The same applies to rabbits, which are a destructive invasive species in many places (including arguably the UK) but are close to extinction in their native range of Spain/France. People are trying to re-introduce them so the local cat species have enough food to eat.

[santaman2000]

In the US, they are an invasive species. In the UK, they are native. As long as their numbers are kept in check, they will not cause a problem. You have to get your head around the difference in scale. In the US there is a vast range of territory for them to potentially invade and upset the existing ecological balance. In the UK their options are severely limited in terms of where they can go, and they aren't likely to upset the ecological balance anyway because they are native to these islands.

Alien invasive species are generally only harmful when they are aliens. In their home territory they are more likely to be in balance, or even rare (e.g. red star thistle, which is a rare, protected native species in the UK but a serious problem weed in various other parts of the world where it is an alien invader.)

On the point of them being native there, I partly agree (see post 67)

As to the more limited range in GB that's likely to be more of a problem than a help; they'll overun it much faster if allowed simply because it's more limited.

As to controlling them; well frankly I don't believe it's possible once they're established. If they were eliminated in the 16th century (IIRC from a previous post) then you haven't dealt with them in over 100 generations and don't understand just how persistant they are. But of course we're both making some unproven assumptions. It "might" be quite a diferent matter if yours are truly wild boar rather than feral hogs. I'm assuming from the previous posts that there may be populations of both and you're assuming that IF they are indeed wild boar they "will" be different.

And as I said, you no longer have the natural predators to keep them in balance.

[Wayland]

We'll swap our hogs for your grey squirrels mate.

But you might have to come and collect the blighters yourselves.

[santaman2000]

LOL. I wish I could help you with that Wayland.

[Geoff Dann]

On the point of them being native there, I partly agree (see post 67)

As to the more limited range in GB that's likely to be more of a problem than a help; they'll overun it much faster if allowed simply because it's more limited.

As to controlling them; well frankly I don't believe it's possible once they're established.

Then how did people manage to eliminate them in the 16th century?

If they were eliminated in the 16th century (IIRC from a previous post) then you haven't dealt with them in over 100 generations and don't understand just how persistant they are.

It is not difficult to control their numbers. All you need is a decent rifle. We might have trouble wiping them out completely, but why would we want to do that? They were not previously exterminated because they were a pest. They were exterminated because they are tasty, and because they are a challenge to hunt.

I think you still don't quite appreciate how small and densely-populated the UK is. We do not have any true wilderness left. It's not like they can just disappear into the blue yonder like they can in most of North America.

And as I said, you no longer have the natural predators to keep them in balance.

We have lost the wolves and most of the large birds of prey that would take the piglets. Because of this, their numbers would have to be controlled eventually. But controlling their numbers is not the same as trying to wipe them out. I am fully aware of the dangers of invasive animals that need to be wiped out, rather than controlled. North American mink have that status in the UK. We only have 24 native land mammals in the UK, and the presence of mink is threatening the future of several of them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12323300

[Geoff Dann]

Possibly in your case, the boar being a native species originally, this may be true. The possible arguement for their elimination being that they've been gone for so long that they "might" no longer be considerred native and destructive to the current excepted environment. I confess I don't know the right answer.

You are the first person I've heard arguing that it is the case. Some people are claiming they are dangerous, but I'm yet to hear anybody claim that wild boar are causing long-term ecological damage in the UK. The native flora, and the other animals, are adapted to share their environment with boar.

In our case, hogs being non-native, elimination is indeed the goal; but also impossible it would seem.

That sounds fair enough.

[santaman2000]

Then how did people manage to eliminate them in the 16th century?



It is not difficult to control their numbers. All you need is a decent rifle. We might have trouble wiping them out completely, but why would we want to do that? They were not previously exterminated because they were a pest. They were exterminated because they are tasty, and because they are a challenge to hunt....

We have several million good rifles. I personally have 2 centerfire rifles, 1 50 caliber Hawkin muzzle-loader, and several handguns; all suitable for the job. And actually they're quite easy to hunt not really much of a challenge. The rifles, poisons, and large natural predators not only don't eliminate them, they cain't even stop them from growing in numbers and spreading.

[HillBill]

Perhaps you government should offer a bounty on their tails? We have one with grey squirrels 10p a tail i think it was It pays for ammo if nothing else

[santaman2000]

...I think you still don't quite appreciate how small and densely-populated the UK is. We do not have any true wilderness left. It's not like they can just disappear into the blue yonder like they can in most of North America....

Yes I understand how densely populated the UK is. But it's irrelevant; they don't "disapper into the wild blue yonder." They invade and populate suburbs, parks farms, and in some cases towns. They're so bad that now there are companies making a very good profit removing them from peoples homes (back yards, sheds, garages, under the house, etc. afetr they've eaten the puppy) The really sad part is they get so much "repeat" business.

[santaman2000]

Perhaps you government should offer a bounty on their tails? We have one with grey squirrels 10p a tail i think it was It pays for ammo if nothing else

I believe some states do. I know they do for beavers and coyotes.

[santaman2000]

You are the first person I've heard arguing that it is the case. Some people are claiming they are dangerous, but I'm yet to hear anybody claim that wild boar are causing long-term ecological damage in the UK. The native flora, and the other animals, are adapted to share their environment with boar...

As I said, I'm not absolutely convinced they are a long term threat there; particularly if they are indeed true wild boar rather than feral. But the potential is there. Especially if there is a population of feral hogs.

[Bowlander]

Did the mini ice age in the 1600's coincide with the extinction of boar in the UK?

They only had pointy sticks and dogs to control them then.

Edit - Wiki reckons they'd gone by the 1300's before the cold period depicted in the Breughel painting - no wonder the dogs looked hungry!

[pastymuncher]

Wow, from wild boar to alien species control to climate change with a bit of history thrown in....
all very interesting though.