Wild Boar in Kent

[Geoff Dann]

Fair enough but in those few centuries the landscape has changed a good bit hasn't it? Do you think it could survive re-introduction.

It hasn't changed that much, no. The cities have grown, and a network of motorways has been built (blocking animals paths), but the there just isn't enough land in the UK for it to have changed that much since wild boar were wiped out in the 16th century. Most of the bits of the UK that were farmed or forested then are still farmed and forested now. And most of the other flora and fauna is also the same, albeit with a few notable destructive invaders like mink and japanese knotweed.

I think the natural habitat of wild boar in the UK would see a net benefit from their re-establishment, for reasons already explained by other posters.

A bit more extreme an example would be could the Earth as we know it survive re-introduction of sabre tooth cats? Mammoths? Dinosaurs? After all, they were all once "native" species.

Sabre tooth cats and mammoths would pose no danger whatsover to the rest of the ecosystem. It is them who would be in peril, which is why they aren't here now.

Dinosaurs would have even more trouble. Their immune systems would be 65 million years out of date and their biology would be adapted to a world with a significantly shorter day length. T. rex, which was a scavenger, would starve to death quite quickly unless there was a decent supply of giant vegetarian dinosaurs, and there simply isn't enough vegetation on the Earth at the moment to sustain a population of giant vegetarian dinosaurs.

Also...when we talk about "native British species" we are specifically referring to the flora and fauna which re-populated these islands after they were covered with an ice sheet which obliterated everything in its paths. The ecosystem of the UK started almost from scratch 10,000 years ago. Anything that was here before the ice came cannot be considered native.

[multi]

Ithink some places here have culling seasons on wild boar

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-16630895

An example

Also read this

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/our.../wildboar.aspx

[Geoff Dann]

True enough but you get my point. Especially when talking about pigs. As has been pointed out by others, they're highly adaptive and inteligent; they'll outcompete most anything else; rather like the Grey squirrel is doing (only as I said they'll also take down unrelated species) I'm not sure the locals really want to see that happen on a large scale.

There isn't much for them to outcompete, apart from badgers, which survived quite happily with them before the boar were wiped out.

[santaman2000]

There isn't much for them to outcompete, apart from badgers, which survived quite happily with them before the boar were wiped out.

I wasn't speaking neccessarily of "direct" competion. Rather the species they'd decimate by consuming them; snakes, other reptiles, ground dwelling birds. They may have co-existed before but I expect not in the numbers you currently have. At any rate aren't some of these species (I believe the adder is one?) currently facing problems enough without re-introducing another threat?

[santaman2000]

It hasn't changed that much, no. The cities have grown, and a network of motorways has been built (blocking animals paths), but the there just isn't enough land in the UK for it to have changed that much since wild boar were wiped out in the 16th century. Most of the bits of the UK that were farmed or forested then are still farmed and forested now. And most of the other flora and fauna is also the same, albeit with a few notable destructive invaders like mink and japanese knotweed.

I think the natural habitat of wild boar in the UK would see a net benefit from their re-establishment, for reasons already explained by other posters....

You might well be right. I had thought that some of the current habitat (heaths and heathers for example) were newer than that.

[multi]

I wasn't speaking neccessarily of "direct" competion. Rather the species they'd decimate by consuming them; snakes, other reptiles, ground dwelling birds. They may have co-existed before but I expect not in the numbers you currently have. At any rate aren't some of these species (I believe the adder is one?) currently facing problems enough without re-introducing another threat?

Everything is buggered in england. Introduce boar, not humans I say.

[santaman2000]

...Dinosaurs would have even more trouble. Their immune systems would be 65 million years out of date and their biology would be adapted to a world with a significantly shorter day length. T. rex, which was a scavenger, would starve to death quite quickly unless there was a decent supply of giant vegetarian dinosaurs, and there simply isn't enough vegetation on the Earth at the moment to sustain a population of giant vegetarian dinosaurs.

Also...when we talk about "native British species" we are specifically referring to the flora and fauna which re-populated these islands after they were covered with an ice sheet which obliterated everything in its paths. The ecosystem of the UK started almost from scratch 10,000 years ago. Anything that was here before the ice came cannot be considered native.

True enough. It was meant to be an extreme example of bringing back successful predators to a world no longer equipped to co-exist.

[lannyman8]

we had wild bore down Worcester way when i lived near there, the biggest was almost the size of a chest freezer until the snipers put a 50. cal round through it, it was living on the range woods destroying the range most nights... it was a good shot from around 1000m with NVTS....

wild bore for ages in the freezer.....nom nom nom....

[Geoff Dann]

I wasn't speaking neccessarily of "direct" competion. Rather the species they'd decimate by consuming them; snakes, other reptiles, ground dwelling birds. They may have co-existed before but I expect not in the numbers you currently have. At any rate aren't some of these species (I believe the adder is one?) currently facing problems enough without re-introducing another threat?

You can count the native British reptiles without running out of fingers. There just aren't enough of them around for wild boar to have a serious impact on their numbers. There may be a problem with some ground-nesting birds, but none that I'm aware of.

The biggest ecological problem we have in the UK (apart from those directly caused by humans) is the lack of predators, resulting in a deer and rabbit population that is pretty much out of control. The deer strip the woodland of vegetation. The rabbits (which aren't native to the UK - brought here by the Romans, native to the Pyrenees) undermine whole hillsides.

[Geoff Dann]

You might well be right. I had thought that some of the current habitat (heaths and heathers for example) were newer than that.

The heather landscape of Scotland is largely man-made, rather than natural. I think that is what you are referring to. Without continued human intervention, most of it would revert to forest. We tend to incorrectly think of the highlands as natural wilderness. It has also been shaped by some pretty nasty politics and big money. There is very little pre-human-arrival natural habitat remaining anywhere in the UK.

[squishy]

There are wild boar in the New Forest, not seen one myself but my grandparents have. I have seen plenty of pot bellied pigs there though

[santaman2000]

The heather landscape of Scotland is largely man-made, rather than natural. I think that is what you are referring to. Without continued human intervention, most of it would revert to forest. We tend to incorrectly think of the highlands as natural wilderness. It has also been shaped by some pretty nasty politics and big money. There is very little pre-human-arrival natural habitat remaining anywhere in the UK.

Thanks. That's exactly what I was referring to; man-made habitat that has been around long enough to be taken for granted. i just don't know which happened first; the man-made habitat or the elimination of wild boars? Whatever man does (be it the elimination of a species or its re-introduction) there's always unintended consequenses.

[Elen Sentier]

A friend (Ray Harris) just up the road is an expert on keeping pigs in woodland. He doesn't keep wild boar although we have them down in the Dene; Ray keeps Tamworths and they do a grand job in the woods. Pigs were one of our ative woodland species and, as HillBill says, nature (unlike humans) never creates something without a reason. Pigs (like everything else on the planet) are far older than us and fit far better into the environment :-).

[Geoff Dann]

Thanks. That's exactly what I was referring to; man-made habitat that has been around long enough to be taken for granted. i just don't know which happened first; the man-made habitat or the elimination of wild boars?

Well...the last strongholds of the boar before we wiped them out were probably the "Royal hunting forests", which were deliberately kept "wild" by very rich men for their personal amusement.

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Question here; are they true wild boars? The one in the picture looked more like a feral (several generations ago) feral hog. If they are feral, They are indeed not particularly dangerous unless threatened.

It might have been answered already but -

My understanding is - They are not really wild bore they are just escaped pig's that have gone feral, apparently pig's can go very feral very quickly. And in a generation or two look just like a true wild bore.
I would not go near one in the wild but when they are "Re-Domesticated" they are quite friendly, one of the lad's I went to collage with is a keeper down south and has seen one or two in his wood's, and the shoot owner is happy to have them around as they keep undesirables of the shoot.

[Geoff Dann]

It might have been answered already but -

My understanding is - They are not really wild bore they are just escaped pig's that have gone feral, apparently pig's can go very feral very quickly. And in a generation or two look just like a true wild bore.
I would not go near one in the wild but when they are "Re-Domesticated" they are quite friendly, one of the lad's I went to collage with is a keeper down south and has seen one or two in his wood's, and the shoot owner is happy to have them around as they keep undesirables of the shoot.

No, they are descended from genuine wild stock that was being kept for breeding purposes, and escaped or were set free by animal liberationists (pigs are accomplished escape artists.) They are not feral pigs descended from domesticated breeds.

There is no reason for a wild pig to see humans either as a threat or as food, and they are intelligent enough to avoid getting into a fight for no reason. You are probably more likely to be attacked by a domesticated ram or billygoat.

[daveO]

I saw a boar with piglets up at the Forest of Dean at the end of April this year. It took one look at us with the dog and ran squealing off in the other direction. They're doing quite a lot of damage up there though, everywhere you go theres big areas that have been rooted up as they look for food, even in the picnic areas. I don't know if it actually counts as damage in the big scheme of a forest though.

[Geoff Dann]

Pigs root things up. That's what they do. The forest will recover.

[spandit]

I remember being on stag on Ex in Germany ...I gave it a good 1/2 mag from ye olde LMG (7.62)

Had you tabbed there with your Bergen? How many clicks was it?

[santaman2000]

Pigs root things up. That's what they do. The forest will recover.

Yes; if given time. But will it recover faster than they can root.

[santaman2000]

Well...the last strongholds of the boar before we wiped them out were probably the "Royal hunting forests", which were deliberately kept "wild" by very rich men for their personal amusement.

Interesting. Generally only the poor hunted boar here originally. Now it's pretty much everybody.

[santaman2000]

A friend (Ray Harris) just up the road is an expert on keeping pigs in woodland. He doesn't keep wild boar although we have them down in the Dene; Ray keeps Tamworths and they do a grand job in the woods. Pigs were one of our ative woodland species and, as HillBill says, nature (unlike humans) never creates something without a reason. Pigs (like everything else on the planet) are far older than us and fit far better into the environment :-).

Maybe. But does your environment still have any natural predators to keep them balanced? I thought you also wiped out the wolves and bears?

We still have coyotes, bears, pathers (and a very limted population of wolves in the South) added to the very liberal human hunting alloted (there's NO limit on the number of boars taken and NO closed season) Yet they still increase their numbers and range exponentially.

BTW, are you certain swine are older than primates?

[Wayland]

Snip>Any tips on spotting them, habitat, feeding habits what to do/not do etc.

thanks

Rub yourself down with truffle oil and wait up in a debris shelter...

[HillBill]

They always have

Yes; if given time. But will it recover faster than they can root.

[santaman2000]

They always have

Not in my experience.

[HillBill]

If it didn't would we still have them? Boars have been around for a long long time. The habitats are still there, the boars wouldn't be if the habitat wasn't

Your experience only covers a tiny percentage of time. No such observations can be used to say whats good or bad for the forest in the long run. You are also a country boy, and country folk take a dim view on anything which could threaten or damage their livelyhood. Its the same here. But that doesn't mean that which countryfolk dislike, is bad. We cause more damage than anything, the UK was entirely covered by forest 5000 years ago, now look at it. If it was just boars populating our small island, i bet the forests would still be there, the wolves, bears, lions, auroch, beaver etc would still be there.

[Geoff Dann]

Interesting. Generally only the poor hunted boar here originally. Now it's pretty much everybody.

At the time, the poor had very little in the way of hunting rights. They weren't even allowed to take rabbits. Access to the royal forests (e.g. the New Forest in Hampshire and the Ashdown Forest in Sussex) was strictly controlled. There was even a giant fence around the whole of the Ashdown Forest (which at the time covered half of the area between London and the South Coast). The fence had about 30 "gates" (for people on horseback) and "hatches" (for those on foot.) The authorities kept very close tabs on what came out of that forest.

[Geoff Dann]

Maybe. But does your environment still have any natural predators to keep them balanced? I thought you also wiped out the wolves and bears?

We still have coyotes, bears, pathers (and a very limted population of wolves in the South) added to the very liberal human hunting alloted (there's NO limit on the number of boars taken and NO closed season) Yet they still increase their numbers and range exponentially.

They would have to have their numbers controlled eventually, because of the lack of apex predators.

[santaman2000]

If it didn't would we still have them? Boars have been around for a long long time. The habitats are still there, the boars wouldn't be if the habitat wasn't ...

As myself and others have said in previous posts, "hogs are adaptable." They'll thrive in almost ANY habitat or environment. They can completely devastate a particular habitat then continue to thrive in the habitat that replaces it.

[santaman2000]

...Your experience only covers a tiny percentage of time. No such observations can be used to say whats good or bad for the forest in the long run. You are also a country boy, and country folk take a dim view on anything which could threaten or damage their livelyhood. Its the same here...

That's a large part of my point; it's the same there.