Neanderthal diet

[BOD]

Depends what you class as a modern diet Bod, perhaps indiginous native folk when exposed to 'modern' food products eat too much of the wrong stuff, too much sugar, salt and fat etc.

Nothing wrong with fresh food these days if you balance out what you eat. There was a documentary about Tonga and its obesity problems, they eat masses of fat and sugar, things like Lamb flaps (breast of lamb)
http://pacific.scoop.co.nz/2010/09/c...eggs-to-samoa/
Nice rolled and stuffed breast of lamb is fab, but you don't eat it everyday do you.

yes new found wealth and over consumption with less exercise can be as devastating to indigneous and aboriginal peoples as relocation and enforced settlement and a reliance on cheap carbohydrates like white bread, white rice and sugar in place of their forests and its resources.

What's scary is the swift decline in a generation.

We have choice they don't really have

[Swallow]

My local Tesco has a run of shelves about thirty metres long just full of water, small bottles, litre/2l/5l/10l bottles, still water, fizzy water, flavoured water, water from Scotland, water from France, Water from Italy and yet a couple of thousand miles away people are dying because they don't have access to ANY clean water, while others are starving to death; they'd not care if it was a box of sugar loaded doughnuts, a big mac, or a donar kebab...I'm pretty sure they would be more than happy to eat it.

Then we come to threads like this, where people crusade some new diet, blame the big corporations for people stuffing food in people's mouths etc (its never the individuals fault they ended up fat gits, its the coca cola corporation or the Golden Arches fault)... I think we should all shut up for a little bit and think hard on how lucky we are to even be able to self indulge in whatever food takes our fancy.

Ice T took a couple of his friends from South Central Los Angeles a drive round the Star's mansions in Hollywood. The response of them when looking at these houses was "they can probably eat whatever they want". His analysis of that was "in other words I can't eat what I want".

[sandsnakes]

The Paleo diet is not a new concept, it has been with us in published form from1863, the high protein low carb diet was inspired by William Banting (c. December 1796 – 16 March 1878), was a formerly obese English undertaker who was the first to popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting intake of refined and easily digestible carbohydrates. He undertook his dietary changes at the suggestion of Dr. William Harvey, who in turn had learnt of this type of diet, but in the context of diabetes management, from attending lectures in Paris by a Claude Bernard.

Letter on Corpulence, Addressed to the Public

In 1863, Banting wrote a booklet called Letter on Corpulence, Addressed to the Public which contained the particular plan for the diet he followed. It was written in the form of an open letter in the form of a personal testimonial. Banting accounted all of his unsuccessful fasts, diets, spa and exercise regimes in his past, then described the dietary change which finally had worked for him, following the advice of a physician. His own diet was four meals per day, consisting of meat, greens, fruits, and dry wine. The emphasis was on avoiding sugar, saccharine matter, starch, beer, milk and butter. Banting’s pamphlet was popular for years to come, and would be used as a model for modern diets initially, he published the booklet at his personal expense. The self-published edition was so popular that he determined to sell it to the general public. The third and later editions were published by Harrison, London. The pamphlet's popularity was such that the question "do you bant?" referred to his method, and eventually to dieting in general. Banting's booklet remains in print as of 2007.

The Banting process which was devised by his doctor William Harvey, which in turn was based on the works of three French doctors, was the standard medical diet until the 1960’s. In the 1960’s a speculative paper was published on the possibility that fats are turned into fat in the body. This has been disproved several times in sound scientific studies. Unfortunately the speculative idea is now a ‘fact’ and is used as a mass marketing tool for all manner of foods. The paleo diet has a proven medical history so it could be very successfully argued that the ‘fad diet’ is the one we are all living on now. The ‘neopaleo’ diet (my term) has a demonstrable affect on blood sugar levels, cortisone and adrenaline spikes all of these contribute to weight gain and obesity. It has good recorded responses with type 2 diabetes…which takes us back to Banting. What is medically known and recorded is that communities who were not exposed to refined carbohydrates had no diabetes or history of diabetes, alas when western refined foods come along this changes rapidly.

[Wook]

Well for breakfast this morning my wife baked me a loaf made from only flour, sourdough and kefir. No other ingredients at all. Certainly not "paleo", but people have been eating this for 1000s of years.

According to the Paleo diet this was unhealthy and "evil".

I diagree, and it was yummy Bread is the stuff of life and I could never adopt a diet that prohibited it.

The first human ever to eat bread obviously thought the experience worth repeating......

The Paleo diet just strikes me as marketing one-upmanship.

For years people have been coming out with diets with themes like "the 1950's diet", the traditional Scottish diet etc. etc.

It's as if someone thought "How can I blow all these traditional diets out of the water? I know, I'll go back 10,000 years! No one can go older than that! I win!".

[Swallow]

Well for breakfast this morning my wife baked me a loaf made from only flour, sourdough and kefir. No other ingredients at all. Certainly not "paleo", but people have been eating this for 1000s of years.

According to the Paleo diet this was unhealthy and "evil".

I diagree, and it was yummy Bread is the stuff of life and I could never adopt a diet that prohibited it.

The first human ever to eat bread obviously thought the experience worth repeating......

The Paleo diet just strikes me as marketing one-upmanship.

For years people have been coming out with diets with themes like "the 1950's diet", the traditional Scottish diet etc. etc.

It's as if someone thought "How can I blow all these traditional diets out of the water? I know, I'll go back 10,000 years! No one can go older than that! I win!".

Is that in any way based on this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nourishing-T...4337723&sr=1-1

[Wook]

Can't say I've seen that before Swallow.

[Swallow]

Can't say I've seen that before Swallow.

It's covers a lot about fermentation of grains to make them more edible and reckons we've been doing that for a long time, so when you said sourdough and Keifer that all sounded familar to the stuff Ms Swift has been doing since she got this.

[santaman2000]

I've glanced through the OP's article, looked through the wiki entry for the paleo-diet and I don't doubt that it might offer a healthy option for some, especially the bit about cutting out all the over processed sugary stuff, but really, no dairy? No cheese and presumably no wine and no beer.....A bit boring isn't it?

And no cornbread; no buttermilk cathead bisquits with butter and fig preserves or molasses; no hush puppies; no hoe-cakes; no breaded and fried pork chops or chicken fried steak. In other words, no "people food" that people of various continents and cultures have been eating for centuries.

[xylaria]

And no cornbread; no buttermilk cathead bisquits with butter and fig preserves or molasses; no hush puppies; no hoe-cakes; no breaded and fried pork chops or chicken fried steak. In other words, no "people food" that people of various continents and cultures have been eating for centuries.

So what is a hoe-cake? Butter milk cathead biscuits sound interesting and hush puppies are brand of comfortable shoes. UMMM molasses, it has some serious amounts of minerals in as well as been stupidly sweet and really delicious addition to food. i love chewing raw cane but it is very hard to come by in the uk, there is a grass that grows on the salt marshes that has a really sweet stalk, but you only get one chew as it is small.
I had nettle and plantian seeds fried in ghee tonight with soya sauce for tea, served with a bit of chicken liver. Previous to the iron age [there was a change of quern design] it was common for teeth to be ground flat by the grain they were eating. We wouldnt of cultivated grain unless we like eating it. How much pre agricultural societies ate is up to debate. We ate a far wider spectrum of seeds in the past than we did now. Sprouting grain makes them sofer and more digestable, it can also make them sweeter.

[Mikey P]

There seems to be a confusion between the paleo diet and the diet our ancestors ate. un processed seeds, the freshest fruit and veg and lean wild meat is a very healthy diet, and is pretty much with regional variations what our species has spent most of it history eating. A fad diet that produces ketosis isnt natural or normal.

Couldn't agree more. Paleo will come and go like Atkins, Cambridge, etc, diets which all had their evangelists. People will latch onto the next 'big thing'. See it all the time at the gym and the clinic.

[santaman2000]

So what is a hoe-cake? Butter milk cathead biscuits sound interesting and hush puppies are brand of comfortable shoes. UMMM molasses, it has some serious amounts of minerals in as well as been stupidly sweet and really delicious addition to food. i love chewing raw cane but it is very hard to come by in the uk, there is a grass that grows on the salt marshes that has a really sweet stalk, but you only get one chew as it is small...

-Hoe-cakes are another version of cornbread. They were made with either regular cornbread batter or occassionally with just water and cornmeal (as they were originall made in the fields by field-hands) They were called hoe-cakes because the batter was poured onto a garden hoe and cooked over a fire.

-Hush-puppies are also another form of cornbread where the batter is dropped by spoonfulls (about an inch to and inch and a half in diameter) into hot oil or grease to deep fry, then served as a side dish with fried fiesh (also coated with cornmeal)

-American biquits are a quick bread (similar in make-up to Irish soda bread but not identical) Thedough includes flour, milk (or buttermilk) and baking powder. Once mixed, the batter is formed into individual biscuits about 2 inches in diameter and a half an inch or so thick. They're then placed on a baking sheet and baked about 12-20 minutes and then eaten in one of several ways:
1. Just as they are
2. Cut them open and fill the inside with 1 or a combination of the following items; butter, fruit preserves or jams(my favorite is fig preserves), or breakfast meats
3. Cut open, laid on a plate and covered with either molsses or gravy (either sausage gravy or tomato gravy)

"Cathead" bisquits refers to the size of extra large ones.

All of these items are Southern comfort foods with the exception of the bisquits which are country comfort food (there's actually quite an overlap between Suthern, country, and soul foods)

[Swallow]

Would anyone be willing to explain why a paleo diet would produce ketosis? If it's an HG diet surely it contains roots & fruits?

[Geoff Dann]

That phrase -- "cutting out" -- assumes that the current diet is "normal" ... which it is not. It's a highly artificial construct, which could not have existed even 30 years ago, let alone before the advent of agriculture. IOW, not for almost all of the past 2.5 million years of our existence.

Anyone who knows even schoolboy-level evolutionary biology realises that we are shaped by our environmental conditions, and you can't eat a particular type of diet for hundreds of millions of years without being adjusted to it.

The real question is whether our species can continue to add a higher and higher percentage of foods that we're really not "designed" for to the human diet without virtually killing ourselves off. And I mean that literally.

The current diet has brought about a worldwide epidemic of obesity and diabetes. There are obese five-year olds with plaqued arteries in the States, and there are now children being born already insulin-resistant, owing to the mothers' diets. And obesity and diabetes are only a part of it. Auto-immune diseases are the number three killer in industrialised countries. Anthropologists and medical-missionaries, like Schweitzer, reported not seeing a single case of cancer among primitive peoples eating their traditional diets. It began to appear as they became westernised. There is a whole cluster of these diseases that were long known by anthropologists as "the diseases of civilisation".

The current diet benefits almost no-one except the supermarkets and the argicultural interests that lie behind the absurd dietary recommendations of the United States Department of Agriculture -- which seem to be taken as a worldwide standard by the ignorant despite the fact that leading scientists have said that they "ignore the science" and "fly in the face of the evidence":

http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article...02893/fulltext

The epidemic of diet-related illnesses in the western world is likely to be a temporary problem which solves itself in the years ahead of us. It has only been possible because of the general resource-glut which has allowed the human population to get totally out of control. Now we've passed peak oil, and we are facing a multi-faceted crisis of civilisation which is going to lead to much higher fuel and food prices, and probably the complete breakdown of the globalised economic/trade system.

We are going to have to completely rethink our food systems in the future. The future isn't going to look much like the past, but I'm willing to bet that our future diet will be more like our past diet than our present diet. We will waste a lot less, and we will eat what is available.

[Geoff Dann]

-As I remember our species (homo sapiens) evolved in the tropics (tropical Africa was the last theory I recall) so what do you mean, "except for a few in the tropics?"

-As for Neandethals, what does their diet have to do with ours anyway? They were a separate species that we replaced; partly because of their inability to adapt.

Homo neanderthalensis is now considered to be a subspecies of H. sapiens. We did not actually replace them. We absorbed them. Their genes live on in modern humans.

[Geoff Dann]

As has been pointed out we as Homo Sapiens are the sum total of many differing strains of 'human'. We are basically a genetic mongrel, all dogs are dogs some are genetically 97% wolf, others are in the 40%. Neanderthals are a very small part of your genetic make up, though in there own time line they were very successful. So we cannot actually compare life expectancy as they are (or are possibly not) one very small fragment of our gene strain.

I would also say that it was the Victorians with the advent of clean water and sewers that have given us longevity. Take that away and refridgeration and we will be back to the 14-20 year life span pretty dam quickly.

Sandsnakes

I think this "14-20" thing is misleading. I don't know where the figure came from, but it looks like an average. That average is being skewed by the fact that a large proportion of individuals did not survive childhood. Of those that did survive into adulthood, they would have averaged at least 30 and some individuals would have lived a lot longer. Even today, in places like the remote Amazon forest or the middle of the Congo, some people make it into their 70s even without the benefit of modern medicine.

[santaman2000]

I think this "14-20" thing is misleading. I don't know where the figure came from, but it looks like an average...

That figure came from the last documentary I saw on Neanderthals. It was last year (although I'm sure the research was probably about 5-10 years old) It did state that the estimates varied from 14-20 years at the low end up to 25-28 years at the upper end. That's the same documentary that stated we basicly replaced them (although it did leave open some possibility for very minute interbreeding) This seems likely to me as it's been our normal pattern throughout history whenever we encounter aboriginal peoples.

True enough aboriginal tribes have a longer lifespan but they also aren't as low on the food chain as Neaderthals were. I suspect Neanderthals rarely (is ever) died of "old age" but were more likely either killed by predators or by large prey animals or accidents when they lost their speed and agility due to age.

It's possible your info comes from newer research but it's also possible it just comes from a researcher with a different point of view. In any case we'll never really know which is correct (if either)

[rik_uk3]

Would anyone be willing to explain why a paleo diet would produce ketosis? If it's an HG diet surely it contains roots & fruits?

Something to do with high protein + low carbs = ketosis

"Ketosis is a condition that occurs when you don’t have enough glucose in your body. Your body begins to break down fat, causing ketones to build up in your body. Side effects of ketosis include nausea and abdominal pain. Other side effects are headaches, bad breath, fatigue, weakness and vomiting. According to Vanderbilt University, ketosis may also lead to dehydration and an imbalance in electrolytes

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/545989-the-paleo-diet-and-stomach-aches/#ixzz22yPy5uuv"

Found on the web, lost the link, can't be bothered to find it again, its on google somewhere

[santaman2000]

www.livestrong.com/article/545989-the-paleo-diet-and-stomach-aches/#ixzz22yPy5uuv" Fixed the link for you Rik.

[Swallow]

Something to do with high protein + low carbs = ketosis

Sorry, I picked up that much from Wikipedia but made assumptions that paleo wasn't that low carbs so went back to the link showing the diet. Includes yams, sweet potatoes, squash but only twice a week. That's suspicious given the Aussie Aboriginals liberal(?) use of the digging stick.

www.livestrong.com/article/545989-the-paleo-diet-and-stomach-aches/#ixzz22yPy5uuv" Fixed the link for you Rik.

Thanks that's a bit easier to read than the Wikipedia version, though a bit concerning given how many of symptoms I have.

[rik_uk3]

"yams, sweet potatoes, squash" never come across any when foraging in Wales, did they die off in the UK during the Ice Age?

[Swallow]

"yams, sweet potatoes, squash" never come across any when foraging in Wales, did they die off in the UK during the Ice Age?

The mammoths ate 'em all because they were so yummy and then died out from starvation.

[xylaria]

"yams, sweet potatoes, squash" never come across any when foraging in Wales, did they die off in the UK during the Ice Age?

Parsnips for breakfast
parsnips for dinner
good old parsnips for tea
If I ate nothing but parsnips
how happy i would be.

Ok there is wild carrot but the roots are scrawny, sea kale, sea beet not a lot but really sweet, same with sweet grass, burdock and reedmace for winter, plus various grass seeds and pollens such reed mace and pine. a starch can be made from pine bark but there not evedance of it been used in britian. Our hunter gather knew more than we do and could probably find food sources alot easyier than we can. It is part of human nature to be bone idle why dig down 2 feet for burdock when you can just live off parnsips.

[sandsnakes]

Swallow old chap. A real paleo diet would probably include about a cupful of hard fought for roots and other carbs a day of which about 30% would be inedible fibre, nuts, seeds berries when in season. When you are compeating against the birds, the season will be very short. . A properly balanced neo-paleo(TM) diet while it would be body triming should not cause ketosis.

Diet has to be measured against exercise, think of the effort required to use a digging stick compared to a spade. Main slow burn calories would come from fats and main meal would be at the beging of the day as it would be stewed over night. lots of stuff even though you cook would be eaten raw.

S

[Everything Mac]

Theres a real growing movement advocating the paleo (Paleolithic) diet
Some studies have thrown up some very interesting results.

Have a dig about here for more info:
http://robbwolf.com/

I had a look at the articles. Some are very interesting.
The one suggesting that grilling food was linked to cancer was interesting particularly. I would have thought that grilled food would have played quite a large part in human history as a whole, surely it can't be that bad?

Lub0, you don't seriously think ye olde man lived longer than us?

A quick google suggests that 40 was a 'good age'.

When the film Saving Private Ryan was made the hunt was on for uniforms. As luck would have it a load were found but...the soldiers of 60 years ago were shorter and lighter than the modern soldier so uniforms had to be made to fill the gaps.

I've nursed a woman of 105, bright as a button (came in with a broken hip) and on one ward out of eight beds three were occupied by women who were 100 (one was 101). While many moan about the modern diet we are healthier now than ever in many respects. Don't blame the range and diversity of food available for all the medical problems, blame the individuals who over indulge.


Sandbender, great photo and the picture is very typical of a lunch I'll take with me when on a day bimble, I joke not and lovely it is too

A very valid point, but I these women will have grown up in a time when the country was in general quite considerably more active, and healthier as a whole and probably maintained a predominantly healthy diet throughout their lives.

How many of the fat wee kids you see these days will live to that age do you think? Let alone the heiffers that seem to dominate our streets today?

Like it or not the shear amount of fatty and sugary foods available these days are having a serious effect on people's health.

This is not helped by the fact that ready meals, and such like are CHEAPER than fresh fruit and veg. Compounded by the the poor culinary skills of your average Brit.

Just my 2p
Edit: that sounds like I'm trying to stir things up, I'm not, I just wanted to make the comment.

As for the op, I think as has been said, the wild food series demonstrated that records of such things would be near impossible. I see no reason to think they wouldn't have made use of any edible plant material they could.
Andy

[Mikey P]

Grilling/roasting any food over an open flame/embers will produce carcinogens on the surface of the food where it scorches/burns. Unavoidable. However, this is also what makes it taste so good! Alas...

Ultimately, if you really want to reduce your cancer risk, see WCRF 2nd expert report recommendations (http://www.wcrf.org/cancer_research/...mendations.php). They will all have a far bigger impact on your cancer risk than not bbqing your dinner.

[Everything Mac]

Grilling/roasting any food over an open flame/embers will produce carcinogens on the surface of the food where it scorches/burns. Unavoidable. However, this is also what makes it taste so good! Alas...

So very true.

[santaman2000]

Grilling/roasting any food over an open flamerisk vs benefits./embers will produce carcinogens on the surface of the food where it scorches/burns. Unavoidable. However, this is also what makes it taste so good! Alas...

+1 on adding the tatse. And while it may raise the risk ok some cancers it lowers the fat content so all in all it's a trade off on the health risks vs benefits.

[torc]

This paleo-diet bloke is in a spot of bother,
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us...buke.html?_r=1
Happy trails...torc.

[sandsnakes]

Rather ironically the low fat issue/high fat issue does not apply. People with lower than normal cholesterol levels are statistically more prone to strokes. There is no conclusive evidence that high cholesterol levels cause cardiovascular disease either. Low fat diets have been indicated in some form of cancer..

What has been discovered by studies is that high fat (not a pure fat diet), high fiber and low refined carb/sugar is actually statistically more likely to prolong life. The devil would seem to be refined carbohydrates which are found alongside fats in prepared foods. Thing is refined carbs are highly addictive and give the brain all sorts of chemical 'hits' as our endocrine system adjusts to it absorption and storage.

So in all likelihood some paleo's lived a long time and suffered no strokes, cancer, diabetes, heart disease (incidentally the stats have not risen on cvd, we have just got more sophisticated on diagnosis). The old polyunsaturated myth has been proven wrong a thousand times as has the 'eggs and cholesterol' myth.

The fundamental problem with neo-paleo diets is primitive man ate all of the fatty bits first, heart, lungs, brains, kidneys, marrow etc. the offal is more nutritious than the 'meat'. The red meat (bulk protein) was not consumed till the really good bits were eaten. Alpha hunters wolves, lions etc still get the 'ikky bits' first the bulk meat is left for the rest of the pack.

our current dietary view of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' was formed by epidemiologists who were applying unproven data to national health programs in the 40/50/60’s. They were trying to save that one person in 600 who ‘may be’ affected. The food companies read the literature (unsupported by proper and conclusive studies) and went with it. Now we are in a situation where it is impossible to do a public u-turn, so it’s a gradual change. Notice margarine no longer says rich in polyunsaturated oils.. now they say high in omega 3.

Smoke, mirrors, poor science and poor data interpretation has got us into the ‘healthiest bunch of fat b######’ in the last 1000 years.

Now where is that pork chop?!

[Swallow]

Rather ironically the low fat issue/high fat issue does not apply. People with lower than normal cholesterol levels are statistically more prone to strokes. There is no conclusive evidence that high cholesterol levels cause cardiovascular disease either. Low fat diets have been indicated in some form of cancer..

What has been discovered by studies is that high fat (not a pure fat diet), high fiber and low refined carb/sugar is actually statistically more likely to prolong life. The devil would seem to be refined carbohydrates which are found alongside fats in prepared foods. Thing is refined carbs are highly addictive and give the brain all sorts of chemical 'hits' as our endocrine system adjusts to it absorption and storage.

So in all likelihood some paleo's lived a long time and suffered no strokes, cancer, diabetes, heart disease (incidentally the stats have not risen on cvd, we have just got more sophisticated on diagnosis). The old polyunsaturated myth has been proven wrong a thousand times as has the 'eggs and cholesterol' myth.

The fundamental problem with neo-paleo diets is primitive man ate all of the fatty bits first, heart, lungs, brains, kidneys, marrow etc. the offal is more nutritious than the 'meat'. The red meat (bulk protein) was not consumed till the really good bits were eaten. Alpha hunters wolves, lions etc still get the 'ikky bits' first the bulk meat is left for the rest of the pack.

our current dietary view of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' was formed by epidemiologists who were applying unproven data to national health programs in the 40/50/60’s. They were trying to save that one person in 600 who ‘may be’ affected. The food companies read the literature (unsupported by proper and conclusive studies) and went with it. Now we are in a situation where it is impossible to do a public u-turn, so it’s a gradual change. Notice margarine no longer says rich in polyunsaturated oils.. now they say high in omega 3.

Smoke, mirrors, poor science and poor data interpretation has got us into the ‘healthiest bunch of fat b######’ in the last 1000 years.

Now where is that pork chop?!

I was also under the impression that it was established that Diet Colesterol and Blood Colesterol were unrelated. I.e. that a high colesterol diet does not lead to high colesterol in the blood.