Legal issues uk

[santaman2000]

Have you ever treated a snake bite ?

I've been there when it was done by another. Epi ain't gonna do a thing for a Moccasin bite. Or a Gila Monster. Or any venomous snake. It's not even in the protocols for snake bites (or at least it wasn't the last time I qualified)

[Hawk]

If your referring to a suction type device read the treatment section in link below

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakebite

There is a lot of evidence available about it.

From your profile I see you are in the USA the info I'm posting is uk based.
If you told me something about the USAF I would believe you until proven otherwise as I have no experience of it.

In this case I teach medics and know about the subjects i post about. If you can find some evidence that disproves what I'm saying fair enough but I'm not expecting you can.

[Hawk]

If you check the list anti venom is on it too and was what I was referring too

[santaman2000]

If your referring to a suction type device read the treatment section in link below

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakebite

There is a lot of evidence available about it.

From your profile I see you are in the USA the info I'm posting is uk based.
If you told me something about the USAF I would believe you until proven otherwise as I have no experience of it.

In this case I teach medics and know about the subjects i post about. If you can find some evidence that disproves what I'm saying fair enough but I'm not expecting you can.

Simple enough about the USAF; Among other duties, I was the 1st aid instructor for my last 4 years. I qualified all 21 years (and all 13 years as a cop) Epi has never been on the protocol. Why on Earth would you want to inject adrenaline into someone who's system is already compromised by a chemical (venom) that might easily be a heart stimulant? It's not the same thing as a known mild poison such as bees. Granted you only have one venomous species in the UK so possibly its venom might be the opposite; I don't know.

As to the suction devises, they were once on the protcols but were removed about 20 years ago.

I've got to ask; given your qualifications, why are you citing wiki as a reference? And BTW that reference reccomended using epi to treat anaphylaxis caused by the antivenom, not for treating the snakebite.

[Hawk]

If you check what I posted you will see that I never said to use adrenalin for snakebite what I said was the drugs on the list could be used for treating a variety of conditions including asthma, anaphylaxis and snakebite as the list contains hydrocortisone, anti-histamine, adrenalin and snake venom.

As to wiki it was the first reference I found I'm using a phone not a computer so prolonged multi screen searching isn't an option. and the basic facts stated are correct unless you can present some medical evidence to the contrary.

It was you that said you would like a snake bite kit I was just showing its not current practice. If you know they are out of fashion why did you say you wanted one.

In any case we are off topic now. The original post was meant to highlight two things.

It's not illegal in the uk for a lay person to be in possession of any POM unless it's a controlled drug.

And the original list can be administered legally by anyone in a life saving emergency.

Both are law and fact

As to what else you might want in your first aid / medical kit that's a different topic.

[rik_uk3]

So your diabetics don't self administer their drugs? Seems a lot of trouble (not to mention expensive) to find a medic or rescue staff 4 times a day. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Diabetics self administer santamen.

I read somewhere last week that you will be able to buy Ventolin Evohalers 'over the counter' and Supermarkets will be selling them at about £7 each.

[xylaria]

In any case we are off topic now. The original post was meant to highlight two things.

It's not illegal in the uk for a lay person to be in possession of any POM unless it's a controlled drug.

And the original list can be administered legally by anyone in a life saving emergency.

Both are law and fact

As to what else you might want in your first aid / medical kit that's a different topic.

It is what can be adminstered safely is the bigger issue. anaphylaxis and asthma are far more likely for layman to find out walking somewhere remote than a nerve agent attack, vertually everyone that knowingly has these conditions carries their own meds. I cant see how adminstering atropine and adrenaline can be safe for anyone without medical training.

[Toddy]

I know that epi-pens are the last resort. Everytime my allergic reaction is assessed the Doctors tell me this.
Even if I presented at hospital with anaphylactic shock they'll try the anti-histamine tablets (or injection of such) first.

Not naysaying your information Hawk; and I agree that in the UK we don't have many poisonous snakes outside the folks who keep them as pets or in zoos, the adder is pretty much it, yes ?; but sometimes we of this bushcraft community need it kept simple.
It would be appreciated if we didn't leave folk with the impression that any allergic reaction and it's safe and allowable to find anybody's epi-pen, or even one in a first aid kit, and administer it.
Adrenaline administered like that is a horrendous shock to the body; first aid courses make a point of saying that the aftermath can be worse than the cause, and first aid is first do no harm.

Interesting to read the 'legalities' of the situation though, and I'm pretty sure that in a survival situation somewhere remote from modern medical facilities, knowing how and when to administer such things as an epi-pen, or snake bite anti-venom would be a crucial skillset.

cheers,
M

[Hawk]

Hi rik, how are you doing?

I saw the inhaler post on first aid cafe forum. I think its £7 for two inhalers. You need to speak to pharmacist and complete a questionnaire.

Off course having training is important and also knowing the difference between an allergic reaction and true anaphylaxis which is a medical emergency for which adrenalin is the first line treatment. Sadly people die that have epipens as relatives are afraid to use them.

This is a bushcraft community which makes me think at some point they will be in a remote situation.

Do your own research or buy a book on the subject and learn more about it as one day you may be able to save someone's life

[rik_uk3]

Doing OK, the TB has left me short of breath though

Thankfully in Wales my inhalers are free

They do worry me a little being sold over the counter, I've seen more than one person admitted who's been over doing Ventolin and this could be more common if they start buying over the counter instead of relying on a regular prescription off the GP.

Yep, two for £7

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...scription.html

[Hawk]

Very true, I like where I am but miss Wales

[Toddy]

Part of carrying the epi-pen is to explain it's function, and when to use it, to nearest and dearest (and usual camping companions ) and work colleagues. That's written on the guidelines in the pack.
The guidelines are very, very, clear.
Intentionally so, since in need, no one needs panic or inability to administer the thing effectively.

Is this not the same with inhalers ? or the necessary medication for diabetes ?

cheers,
M

[santaman2000]

Part of carrying the epi-pen is to explain it's function, and when to use it, to nearest and dearest (and usual camping companions ) and work colleagues. That's written on the guidelines in the pack.
The guidelines are very, very, clear.
Intentionally so, since in need, no one needs panic or inability to administer the thing effectively.

Is this not the same with inhalers ? or the necessary medication for diabetes ?

cheers,
M

Not with injectable diabetes meds Mary. They're generally not an emergency thing (Insulin, Victoza, Byetta) They're a regular thing taken on a schedule to keep your glucose levels under control.

The emergency procedures are for when either you under-eat after taking them or if (while on a new regime of meds) they work overly well and your glucose levels crash. In that case the the procedure is to eat or drink something sweet immediately or get immediate medical attention. There are no self administered (or 1st aider allowed) glucose shots allowed here. Not sure about para-medics though.

I think we may be unfairly hounding Hawk in that respect. I cain't tell from his profile what his profession is; if he's a para-medic, he may well have more authority to administer drugs than we; my mother was an RN and kept a corresponding stock of supplies at home for emergencies (we lived in the country about 20 miles from the nearest DR. or ER) That said, I don't think it's a good idea to advise the majority of us (who don't have that authority) to plan and stock to do so.

[santaman2000]

Diabetics self administer santamen.

I read somewhere last week that you will be able to buy Ventolin Evohalers 'over the counter' and Supermarkets will be selling them at about £7 each.

Thanks Rik. That's good news, I hope to be able will be able to return to visit the UK sometime without breaking any laws.

[santaman2000]

...It was you that said you would like a snake bite kit I was just showing its not current practice. If you know they are out of fashion why did you say you wanted one...

I said I wanted a "snakebit kit," not that I wanted the 20 year old version.

[boatman]

The emergency procedures are for when either you under-eat after taking them or if (while on a new regime of meds) they work overly well and your glucose levels crash. In that case the the procedure is to eat or drink something sweet immediately or get immediate medical attention. There are no self administered (or 1st aider allowed) glucose shots allowed here. Not sure about para-medics though.

That was one of my points. It is nonsense to elaborate on what you might be allowed to possess or administer and real first aid. Anti-venom, dramatic, elevate the limb and resting not mentioned and far more practical, hmmmm.

[santaman2000]

That was one of my points. It is nonsense to elaborate on what you might be allowed to possess or administer and real first aid. Anti-venom, dramatic, elevate the limb and resting not mentioned and far more practical, hmmmm.

Elevate the limb is for bleeding; with a snakebite you want to do the opposite. The idea is to SLOW or PREVENT venom from getting to the organs.

[boatman]

Elevate the limb is for bleeding; with a snakebite you want to do the opposite. The idea is to SLOW or PREVENT venom from getting to the organs.

Oops, thought that as soon as I posted. SO DO NOT TAKE MEDICAL ADVICE FROM THE INTERNET would seem the best plan.

[Toddy]

Sorry Hawk, we've rather taken your thread on a side road

Snake bites though......there's only really adders in the UK (we need Jon to chip in on this thread), and as far as I know you really need to be unlucky to react badly to a bite from one. I don't even recall snake bite being mentioned in first aid courses here.
Off the top of my head I'd keep the victim as still and calm as I could and get medical assistance as quickly as possible, but what if the incident happened out on the moor or hill ? to one of us ? We'd probably try to walk out. Should we ?

cheers,
M

p.s Hawk, if you'd prefer I can tidy up this thread and start another with the removed bits, but the conversation is interesting and informative.
M

[Hawk]

That's fine Im sure our American colleagues know more about snake bites than me.

I'm interested in what kinds of snake bite kits are available, what they contain and how effective they are. Other than anti-venom that is.

So carry on

[carabao]

For snake bite I was taught compression bandage and raise the limb, and case vac as soon as. Is that correct

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Hawk, we are taught quite clearly on first aid courses that administering an epi pen must only be done with an epi pen prescribed for that individual.
They aren't a common component of workplace first aid kits. School nurses don't hold them in store for children or staff; the individual carries their own.

This is why I queried what you had written.

Toddy

Depends on the work place tbh, I work for a Car Manufacturer and we have a fully Medical Unit on site with a fully qualified doctor per shift and nursing staff but all areas have a first aid kit on the line every 3/4 stantions apart and I do belive they have pens but only some members of staff are trained to administer them, In schools it's a whole other kettle of fish.

My Mum was a Teacher and also a first-aider, and they where told cut's etc plaster anything else call the nurse and ambulance if needed. Teachers live in a legal limbo they are guardians upto a point and then after that they are in trouble unless it's proved that it was fully in the best interests of the child or the parent or guardian can not be reached. And again there is a exemption to that I believe it stems from a situation like this:

Child on a school trip has a accident, and needs a blood transfusion to live while the parent or guardian is out of reach. Teacher says yes and the transfusion is performed and the child survives while legally the Teacher was doing there lawful duty in protecting a child's welfare they might have broken the faith of the student / students parents by doing so, they are unhappy about this and talk to a solicitor who knows that legally from a child protection standpoint you are fine but from a Ethical (read anti-discrimination law) you could be in hot water. This can lead to Civil court action that could cripple you or the local education authority.

To the OP, that is a good list and good basic grounding.

[Toddy]

Do you think you could actually check those first aid kits ?

As I said earlier, the epi pen is the last resort. I could see the Doctor having access to one, but not in a standard factory FAkit.

I have good reason to ask; the pharmacy who do an automatic delivery of my repeat prescription got well and truly confused. Right now I have five, in date, epi-pens................and a new pharmacy

Parental religious sensibilites can be difficult to negotiate for teachers. I believe such details are clearly described/constrained on permission forms before every outing. They certainly are with any school I have worked with.
I don't know how the medical profession would deal with such an incident but I can't see them demanding that the teacher take responsibility in a full blown emergency.

cheers,
Toddy

[santaman2000]

For snake bite I was taught compression bandage and raise the limb, and case vac as soon as. Is that correct

No on the first 2 points.

1.Do NOT raise the limb; it should be kept lower than the organs to slow or prevent venom reaching said organs. Raising the limb is to control bleeding and has nothing to do with snakebites.
2. A compression strap (between the bite and the organs) yes but not a compression bandage on the bite per se.
3. Evac ASAP, yes
4. Cleanse the bite with soapy water.

* Not neccessarily in the order given.

[santaman2000]

That's fine Im sure our American colleagues know more about snake bites than me.

I'm interested in what kinds of snake bite kits are available, what they contain and how effective they are. Other than anti-venom that is.

So carry on

What's available varies widely (there are still some of the obsolete kits we discussed on the market) but the better ones (and you can make your own) include wet-wipes to cleanse the bite and surgical tubing or similar to make a constrictor band (NOT a tournequit)

Anti-venom is not in kits but will be at certain medical facilities (not all) Unfortunately it is also somewhat rare. It is expensive and has a short shelf life and difficult to predict which species a victim will be bitten by, so stockpiling it is dificult; even more so than blood. As snakebites aren't anywhere near as common as accidents requiring blood, it's usually unavailable or has to be brought from a distant location. I suppose that might not be the case in the UK as you only need stock anti-venom for a single species? And likely even MORE dificult for countries such as Australia?

I vaguely remember reading a few years ago that sombody was working on a synthetic antivenom that might solve some of these issues.

[santaman2000]

Do you think you could actually check those first aid kits ?

As I said earlier, the epi pen is the last resort. I could see the Doctor having access to one, but not in a standard factory FAkit.

I have good reason to ask; the pharmacy who do an automatic delivery of my repeat prescription got well and truly confused. Right now I have five, in date, epi-pens................and a new pharmacy

Parental religious sensibilites can be difficult to negotiate for teachers. I believe such details are clearly described/constrained on permission forms before every outing. They certainly are with any school I have worked with.
I don't know how the medical profession would deal with such an incident but I can't see them demanding that the teacher take responsibility in a full blown emergency.

cheers,
Toddy

Over here the teacher's responsibility ends when the child is delivered to medical professionals. If the parent or guardians cain't be reached for permission (or if there isn't a presigned form) then the responsibility to decide falls on the medical staff.

[Toddy]

That strikes me as eminently practical.

cheers,
M

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Do you think you could actually check those first aid kits ?

As I said earlier, the epi pen is the last resort. I could see the Doctor having access to one, but not in a standard factory FAkit.

I have good reason to ask; the pharmacy who do an automatic delivery of my repeat prescription got well and truly confused. Right now I have five, in date, epi-pens................and a new pharmacy

Parental religious sensibilites can be difficult to negotiate for teachers. I believe such details are clearly described/constrained on permission forms before every outing. They certainly are with any school I have worked with.
I don't know how the medical profession would deal with such an incident but I can't see them demanding that the teacher take responsibility in a full blown emergency.

cheers,
Toddy

Not a problem, I will check as I have my yearly medical next week but I am going off the 574 page site handbook that has the info in it. My GF is a Doctor so I will ask her too if you like, infact i'll txt her the thread now.

Having said that I do know last year a dude on the fluid fill line had a reaction to a spill and the GL gave him a eppy pen (I was there when it happened), so unless they changed the law or rules I am going to go with give it if you have the training.

[Native Nathan]

Not with injectable diabetes meds Mary. They're generally not an emergency thing (Insulin, Victoza, Byetta) They're a regular thing taken on a schedule to keep your glucose levels under control.

The emergency procedures are for when either you under-eat after taking them or if (while on a new regime of meds) they work overly well and your glucose levels crash. In that case the the procedure is to eat or drink something sweet immediately or get immediate medical attention. There are no self administered (or 1st aider allowed) glucose shots allowed here. Not sure about para-medics though.

So to clarify would it be OK to give a diabetic Glucose tablets like Dextrose or locosade tablets both of which can be bought in ASDA
I am asking because thi is what I was taught, but that was a while ago, and as some one else stated one of the aims of first aid is to do no harm?

[santaman2000]

So to clarify would it be OK to give a diabetic Glucose tablets like Dextrose or locosade tablets both of which can be bought in ASDA
I am asking because thi is what I was taught, but that was a while ago, and as some one else stated one of the aims of first aid is to do no harm?

Yes, If you have them. Technically they're not drugs, they're a food (sugar in pill form) In my experience though, not many people carry them unles they are diabetic. That said, sweet liquids work better (quicker) than solid foods or glucose tablets. I try to keep a juice box or three nearby (the type you'd pack in a child's lunch; apple or orange juice) Only needed any of it once since I was diagnosed about 15 years ago.