Indoor fire?

[Shizhe'e]

Hi All, Is it possible to demonstrate fire lighting indoors? Thinking more school environment ie. classroom or hall so smoke detectors about. Any ideas appreciated.

[Colin.W]

I think you will have to check with each school, I had to change some of my tricks when I did a kids magic party at a school. among the list of things they were not allowed to permit was naked flames except in areas of the school designed and equiped for their use. bottom line was if I wanted to use flash paper of any tricks using fire I'd have to do it in the science or the cookery class rooms

[Perrari]

Why dont you do it outdoors ??

[Shizhe'e]

The weather?

[southey]

The weather?

A Tarp maybe?

[ged]

Don't light fires in school buildings, that would be silly.

[susi]

Don't light fires in school buildings, that would be silly.

+1 Totally agree. Apart from the obvious fire risk, it's important to educate young naive minds that "fire" and "indoors" don't mix.

(Didn't you guys recently have some youngsters die of CO poisoning after bringing a BBQ inside a tent?)

[John Fenna]

+1 Totally agree. Apart from the obvious fire risk, it's important to educate young naive minds that "fire" and "indoors" don't mix.

(Didn't you guys recently have some youngsters die of CO poisoning after bringing a BBQ inside a tent?)

Most of the houses I have lived in have indoor fires - so it aint so naive to link "fire" and "indoors"!
It is "Fire" and " inapropriate" that should not be mixed

[southey]

Do the D&T workshops have a forge or a vapour area for welding, or does the chem lab have a vapour tank for experiments, are there no covered out door areas?

[susi]

Most of the houses I have lived in have indoor fires - so it aint so naive to link "fire" and "indoors"!

Yes we have indoor fires in houses* here too. But wasn't this thread about schools?


*It is also a legal requirement here that all houses must be built with an indoor fire, even if you use oil/ground-source heat pump/electricity as your main heating source.

[Wayland]

Don't light fires in school buildings, that would be silly.

I do it very frequently in schools as part of my presentations.

First thing to check is whether they have a smoke alarm, not all schools do.

If they do, they are usually supplied with plastic caps that can be put on to temporarily isolate them. If they look fairly new, the caretaker may well still know where they are, although some may have wondered what they are for and thrown them away. In their absence, a rubber glove stretched over the sensor makes a good substitute. It is usual to get permission from the Head before isolating a sensor as such decisions need to be made at high levels and at the very least they should be aware of them.

In some schools the alarms can be taken "off watch" temporarily from the main panel and if all these options are not available then I take the kids outside for a short while if weather allows.

Needless to say this should all be properly risk assessed and managed.

In my case I have a metal cauldron to drop flaming tinder into and a cup of water to pour over any loose embers if necessary. This is in addition to knowing where the fire extinguishers are and familiarising myself with evacuation procedures and exits of course.

In a dozen or more years of almost daily practice I have not had an accident yet but always had the contingency plans in place.

Oh.. and make sure your liability insurance will stretch to the rebuilding of a school raised to the ground by fire, just in case...


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[georann]

Did this with my scouts in our village hall the other week during the torrential rain! Took some outside to show them wet fire lighting and finding fuel when wet under a tarp, and had others making feather sticks indoors, and the third group were lighting fires with flint and steel and ferro rod etc on baking trays indoors (it was only a small flame so no real danger and water was on hand).

As long as you take precautions and are sensible about it I see no reason why you can't demo small fires indoors.

[susi]

Wow. Have to step back and say I'm shocked. Not in a bad way, but in a surprised way

[ged]

This is just nuts.

Nobody is doubting the ability of a responsible adult to make a risk assessment and light fires in the strangest of places without losing what remains of his hair.

But I'm concerned about the children. Firecraft chat here on the forum is almost invariably about lighting the fire. Very little is about controlling it. Keeping it going well and preventing it from getting out of control are at least as important as lighting it, and the skills to do those things need to be acquired just as much as the skills needed to light the fire. Apart from the fact that you really can't sensibly do justice to the subject indoors, I believe you need to think about what impression you're giving to the kids.

One of the most important things that children need to learn is that fire can be dangerous. They need to know that it has to be controlled, and that if it isn't kept under a very watchful eye at all times then it can get out of control very quickly. When that happens, as unfortunately it does distressingly often, the results can be devastating.

Giving children the subliminal message that it's just fine and dandy to light fires indoors as long as you don't set the alarms off is just asking for one of them, later on, to tell the officer investigating the deaths of her family that she saw the man in funny clothes put a rubber glove over the fire alarm at school so she thought that it would be OK at home. But she forgot to take it off again.

Heaven forbid that I ever should go into a school to show kids some firecraft, but if I did, the first thing I'd say is "right kids, this is too dangerous to do inside so let's all go out onto the playing field and put up a tarp". If the little darlings aren't allowed to get wet when it rains on your parade, do something else.

I simply do not believe in the "Don't do this at home" idea. They WILL do what they see others do. Lead by example.

[Wayland]

This is just nuts.

Nobody is doubting the ability of a responsible adult to make a risk assessment and light fires in the strangest of places without losing what remains of his hair.

But I'm concerned about the children. Firecraft chat here on the forum is almost invariably about lighting the fire. Very little is about controlling it. Keeping it going well and preventing it from getting out of control are at least as important as lighting it, and the skills to do those things need to be acquired just as much as the skills needed to light the fire. Apart from the fact that you really can't sensibly do justice to the subject indoors, I believe you need to think about what impression you're giving to the kids.

One of the most important things that children need to learn is that fire can be dangerous. They need to know that it has to be controlled, and that if it isn't kept under a very watchful eye at all times then it can get out of control very quickly. When that happens, as unfortunately it does distressingly often, the results can be devastating.

Giving children the subliminal message that it's just fine and dandy to light fires indoors as long as you don't set the alarms off is just asking for one of them, later on, to tell the officer investigating the deaths of her family that she saw the man in funny clothes put a rubber glove over the fire alarm at school so she thought that it would be OK at home. But she forgot to take it off again.

Heaven forbid that I ever should go into a school to show kids some firecraft, but if I did, the first thing I'd say is "right kids, this is too dangerous to do inside so let's all go out onto the playing field and put up a tarp". If the little darlings aren't allowed to get wet when it rains on your parade, do something else.

I simply do not believe in the "Don't do this at home" idea. They WILL do what they see others do. Lead by example.

It might surprise you to hear that I do actually think about the impression I'm giving to the kids. I work with over 6000 of them a year and I never waste an opportunity to teach them in a responsible way.

I also think about the impression I give to their teachers who are perfectly situated and well qualified to judge the effect it may have on them. For your information over 90% of them book again and are keen to do things just the same way.

A child that has only ever seen fire on the TV is not going to learn that it can be dangerous and unless they know what smoke smells like how will they recognise it when it is drifting into their bedroom.

Shizhe'e asked for perfectly reasonable advice about dealing with the practicalities of working in schools. A quick look at his posts indicates that he is likely to be sensible about such advice so I'd appreciate it if you let me pass on a small amount of my extensive experience in this area without making ill informed judgements about it.

[calgarychef]

Go ahead and do what you think is best, but if you need to ask advice maybe you ought to do it outdoors. We start small fires indoors with flint and steel to show it works then snuff them out right away, but it's mostly adults in our groups. I'd think a kid would try it indoors himself if they had been demonstrated to indoors...could lead to a nasty accident.

[John Fenna]

Yes we have indoor fires in houses* here too. But wasn't this thread about schools?


*It is also a legal requirement here that all houses must be built with an indoor fire, even if you use oil/ground-source heat pump/electricity as your main heating source.

Erm.... wasn't it you who mentioned tents?
Indoors is indoors ...schools around here sometimes have open fireplaces or have vapour closets (or whatever) for chemistry lessons .....
I see nothing wrong with indoor fires as long as the environment is suitable and the lesson taught responsibly.
They gave firelighting demos and practice sessions at the Outdoor show in the NEC a few years ago with kids lighting bits of cotton wool with fire steels - with no issues arising.
Burning cotton wool is the best use for it when it comes to educating kids!

[Perrari]

I always thought Bushcraft was an outdoor activity, are we now branching in to indoor Bushcraft ?? By all means show them the kit & the tools indoors, and talk about safety & responsibility, even show som videos relating to firelighting, but take them outside for the demo. If the weather is bad leave it until another day or improvise with a tarp or cheap gazebo. Do schools have bikesheds nowadays ? When I was a kid I would rather be in the playground in any weather than be in a classroom.

[John Fenna]

I will be spending a day at a primary school next week teaching bushcraft skills (inc fire lighting )to 11 year olds.
I have visitted the school in advance and picked an area in their extensive grounds with a spot by their adventure plaground to pitch a tarp if it rains.... but not all schools have these facilities.
For six months my school in Belgium was housed on (I think) the third floor of an office block in the commercial district of Brussels.
Schools have a range of facilities, some good, some restricted ... so - if it is apropriate -why not teach fire lighting indoors ... I often taught fire lighting and even open flame cooking to my ScoutsINSIDE the Scout hut when it was not reasonable to get the little beggars to go outside (the grounds often flooded)

[TomBartlett]

I do a lot of work with schools, mainly primary schools. I teach recycling, so don't tend to start fires (unless things go terribly wrong), but I second what Wayland has said. Most schools will be happy to let you do things that are a bit different so long as you show that you've properly risk assessed the activity. I think the best thing to do would be to talk to the school you'll be teaching at. I'm sure you're able to light a fire outdoors without it raging out of control, so there's no reason to believe you won't be able to do it indoors. I think if young learners are shown how to responsibly carry out tasks like fire lighting then they're less likely to make dangerous mistakes that might occur if they decided to just try it for themselves without such prior guidance.