Can anyone recommend me a Canoe?

[marcelxl]

I leave these shores on Friday and I have Jettisoned my 2 fishing kayaks to firstly make room in the container and secondly that my life has changed and I think a "Canadian"(Ironically!)wou ld be much more suitable for my needs.

So could anyone recommend me what to go for/not to go for? or at least recommend me brands/materials to look out for/avoid and suggested lengths

I would like it manageable for one but would take 2+dogs on a day trip or 1+ gear+dog on a camp trip.

I will be kitting it out for fishing - flyfishing and this will likely be its primary use but I am put off certain fishing specific craft as it seems that this is all they are good for (Old Town Predator) and would be pretty awful as paddling experience. But I bow to your experience if you know better. But I would like a green 'un!

It will be primarily for lakes but I will be looking at getting some tuition for river use and I am a reasonably experienced paddler in one form or another.

I will be looking at a second one as well for wifey later down the line with all the above apart from the double crew as I have flogged her 'Yak too!

Thanks in advance

Marc

[gabrielsdad]

Hiya mate. Firstly good luck, im not envious at all. Haha
Ive got a venture prospector. But theyre made over here.
What i really wanted was a nova craft prospector. Sp3 are very reasonable and extremely tough.
If you go on songofthepaddle. There is a chap called lloyd. Hes done reviews on alot of canoes there so isnt hard to find. He lives in canada and will see you right. All the best in your new life. If you ever need a british labourer for a week or 2 let me jnow. Haha

[rancid badger]

If your headed for Canada then you're going to be totally spoiled for choice and what's more, you'll find the prices incredibly low in comparison to the UK.


There are no open canoes made in the UK that are worth even thinking about compared to what's available across the Atlantic.

I'd strongly recommend Nova Craft but you can do a hell of a lot better than an SP3!.They're excellent boats but unless you can hump the thing around safely or you really need the absolute bombproof properties of the SP3, I'd look at Royalex or Royalex lite to give you the advantage of easier handling off the water.

As to actual boat choice, it depends whether you intend to paddle real moving water or slower rivers and lakes etc. But I'd suggest a length of no less than 16ft, simply because of the better balance between tracking(going in a straight line) and actual maneuverability(ease of steering). Don't be fooled into thinking that you don't "need" a longer boat and maybe a 14 or 15 would do.
The shorter the boat, the slower it is and the more difficult it is to keep it in a straight line, not to mention the lack of usable space.



Here's an example of what you can have:
http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Paddling/Boats/PRD~5021-724/nova-craft-pal-royalex-lite-canoe.jsp

1650 CAD = 1042.6736 GBP

compared to; £1399 list price here.

There are other makes like Bell, Wenonah etc etc but regardless of what you end up with, try before you buy and ideally hire a few different boats for at least a day to get a proper idea of what different boats are really like.

I'd advise not bothering at all with Old Town, you can do very much better than that.

Other bits of advice I would offer;

Disregard the apparent cavalier attitude of some of our transatlantic "cousins" to fitting flotation to open canoes and fit a pair of solid blocks to any boat you buy.

Seek out some professional instruction on how to paddle, rather than do what the vast majority over here do and just bumble about till they "get it" or give up. This will enhance your paddling skills and in turn the enjoyment of your trips no end, remember- pretty much any nugget can paddle a kayak to a reasonable standard, it takes significantly more skill to paddle an open canoe well.

Very good luck, I sincerely hope you make a go of it.

I had the chance myself when I was about 19 but couldn't see the point!
ah well, you live and learn!

best wishes

Steve

[santaman2000]

First, There is NO BETTER canoe than Old town!

Second, I've personally witnessed a demonstration by the Boy Scouts where a swamped aluminum canoe (Grunman) with NO flotation added kept 17 scouts afloat.

Third, Length will depend much on what you intend to do with your canoe. If as you say, you intend mostly lakes (and larger streams) then 16 foot is indeed your minimum. However if you intend to explore smaller streams and swamps then anything longer than 11 or 12 feet will get you hung up in the bends and shallows. Maneuverability and tracking are more dependent on aspect ratio (ratio of length to beam) and design (rocker, keel, etc.) than thy are to a simpley length alone.

Fourth, I'd reccomend (If indeed you're going to Canada) you wait until you've been there a bit and taken a few trips with the locals. They'll give you far better advise than any of us ever could.

[mrcharly]

Aluminium canoes usually have flotation tanks built-in.

Royalex can be a foamed-layer construction that is self-bouyant - but if you strap in a bit of luggage (or a person) the canoe will sink.

It's best to fit floatation.

Old Town are good make, but they make rubbish as well as good stuff. Wenonah are a bit more specialized, but of superior quality. One is a mass-manufacturer, the other a specialist.

[edit]
Just read your requirements.

Ok, if you are going fly-fishing with dogs, you need some size to the canoe. I'd say look at 16-17ft. A double-seated canoe usually paddles well for one person if they sit in the 'front' seat but facing the other way.

With a bit of skill, a 17ft boat can be handled down narrow streams. I used to take a 17'6" flatwater kayak through flooding rivers filled with trees, boulders and debris.

Old Town do a good range of suitable canoes for this sort of work, I think the Prospector is the gold standard. But look for something 2nd-hand when you are over there. After a bit you might change your mind about the size and style.

If you are going on open lakes, you'll need something with a lowish hull and a bit of fill to the ends - too much hull depth creates a lot of windage, which is hell out on the open water. Conversely if you are running rivers, a deep hull with fine ends can be easier to handle down rough waters. Not manouverable, but quicker and easier to keep to a line.

Practice your switching. Canoe snobs used to say that real canoeists always paddled on one side, using a J stroke to keep the boat inline. Then a redneck father and son who didn't know better hit the marathon racing scene and cleaned up. They switched sides in a gloriously smooth athletic display (with fags hanging out corner of the mouth), destroying the competition.

[santaman2000]

Fair enough in that my Old Town experience was limited to a couple of models but they definitely weren't the more expensive models. The Grunmans I remember from the 1970s (unfortunately trhey don't make them anymore and the used ones command premium prices) when I saw the demo didn't have flotation. As far as I recall, it wasn't even heard of back then.

[mrcharly]

I think they will have had flotation, you might not have realised it. In some it was a little triangular tank in the bow and stern, in others it was the seats.

aluminum is heavier than water and if an aluminium canoe is filled with water, it will sink without flotation. Just a fact of physics.

Apart from the horrible 'bong' noise they make when hit with a paddle, they were excellent boats; durable, not too heavy and a decent hull shape. Bloody freezing in winter, of course.

[santaman2000]

I think they will have had flotation, you might not have realised it. In some it was a little triangular tank in the bow and stern, in others it was the seats.

aluminum is heavier than water and if an aluminium canoe is filled with water, it will sink without flotation. Just a fact of physics...

Apart from the horrible 'bong' noise they make when hit with a paddle, they were excellent boats; durable, not too heavy and a decent hull shape. Bloody freezing in winter, of course.

LOL. Cain't argue that logic. Another plus for the aluminum canoes was the price (at least back then while they were still being made)

[gabrielsdad]

Like i said. The sp3 woukd have been my choice. It wasnt a recommendation. I recommend you get intouch with lloyd on songofthepaddle. Hes over there and knows what hes in about. The guy practically lives in a canoe from what i see.

[santaman2000]

...Old Town do a good range of suitable canoes for this sort of work, I think the Prospector is the gold standard...

Unfortunately this hasn't been in their catalog for some years now (before I ever started looking for themdecades ago in fact) now.

I'll try to post a link to a thread on them Hopefully it will link) www.bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67157

[Shewie]

I'd have a look round the outfitters when you get out there Marc, you should be able to pick up a nice used kevlar Wenonah for a good price.

Failing that I'd recommend Nova Craft if you're buying new, I went for a Bob Special in Royalex Lite as it suited my flat water paddling, if you're thinking about doing some white water at some point then you'll want more freeboard than the Bob, the Pal, Prospector or Cronje are worth a look.

[Jinsin456]

I'll be following this thread closely as I'm in the same boat (although ironically we don't have a boat ) and I have been looking at the Prospector SP3 as it suits my budget.

[santaman2000]

...With a bit of skill, a 17ft boat can be handled down narrow streams. I used to take a 17'6" flatwater kayak through flooding rivers filled with trees, boulders and debris...

Depends on your definition of "narrow." I've explored streams and inlets narrower than 5 feet. You can go in one direction (IF the bends aren't too sharp) but you won't be able to turn a 17 foot canoe around in less than a 17 foot stream.

[Baggy]

Plenty of advice available here,
http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/
and there are some Canadians there

[Prawnster]

If I was thinking of replacing my Wenonah Aurora to do the kind of paddling you're describing ie solo trips with kit and dogs then I'd get myself a Nova Craft Bob Special or a Pal. Beautiful boats the both of them and they'll take a bow paddler should you want company occasionally.


Sent from my phone.

[mrcharly]

Depends on your definition of "narrow." I've explored streams and inlets narrower than 5 feet. You can go in one direction (IF the bends aren't too sharp) but you won't be able to turn a 17 foot canoe around in less than a 17 foot stream.

sure you can!

Stand up. Turn around.
lol

[santaman2000]

sure you can!

Stand up. Turn around.
lol

LOL. I suppose. But the ballast would be wrong then and you'd have to straddle the seat back.

[mrcharly]

Seat back?

I don't agree with canoe seats with backs. Prevents many of the strokes.

[santaman2000]

Seat back?

I don't agree with canoe seats with backs. Prevents many of the strokes.

Perhaps. But I only use the one instintive stroke anyway, and the backs also prevent (or lessen) my backaches at my age. That said, I've never owned on with seats yet. However my next one will likely have them for 2 reasons:
1. The above mentioned backaches
2. It seems to be the only option in many of the models I like (canoe design is evolving with market demands)

[Native Nathan]

Does it have to float, and if so which way?

[Filterhoose]

I cannae see past Old Towns. Great vfm.

[marcelxl]

Thanks guys, much to go on with!

For now I am watching kijiji and craigslist like a hawk, so trying the second hand market first.

Cheers!

[rancid badger]

I cannae see past Old Towns. Great vfm.

I'm sorry but you need to look at what you actually get for your money;

Old Towns are not cheap by anyone's standard yet the basic Old Town boats come with heavy, moulded plastic seats as standard-these are not ideal for prolonged use particularly in hot weather, assuming of course you are not trying to paddle the boat from a kneeling position.
The standard carrying or centre yoke/thwart on all Old Town boats I've paddled or seen is poorly designed and is extremely uncomfortable in use, digging into neck and shoulders-they're so bad that people fit padding foam, often buying specially made shoulder pads to counter this problem.

Nova Craft's basic boats come with very good quality webbing seats as standard and their yokes are of a deep dish design, actually made to make carrying the boat on your shoulders very much easier and far more comfortable.

If you wanted to fit out a basic Old Town to the same standard as a basic NovaCraft, you'd be looking at spending apx £55 each for a pair of Old Town webbing seats and another £70 for a deep dish yoke, so that's an extra £180 you're looking at. You'd probably have to buy different seat fittings/bolts etc as well.

No doubt you could shop around and do it a bit cheaper of course.

Here's how Nova Craft and Old Town's basic boats actually compare price wise:
http://www.canoesandkayaks.co.uk/pro...tic_Prospector

http://www.canoesandkayaks.co.uk/pro...Canoe_Old_Town

If you actually want plastic seats with backrests etc then the choice is obvious.




best wishes

Steve

[santaman2000]

I'm sorry but you need to look at what you actually get for your money;

Old Towns are not cheap by anyone's standard yet the basic Old Town boats come with heavy, moulded plastic seats as standard-these are not ideal for prolonged use particularly in hot weather, assuming of course you are not trying to paddle the boat from a kneeling position.
The standard carrying or centre yoke/thwart on all Old Town boats I've paddled or seen is poorly designed and is extremely uncomfortable in use, digging into neck and shoulders-they're so bad that people fit padding foam, often buying specially made shoulder pads to counter this problem.

Nova Craft's basic boats come with very good quality webbing seats as standard and their yokes are of a deep dish design, actually made to make carrying the boat on your shoulders very much easier and far more comfortable.

If you wanted to fit out a basic Old Town to the same standard as a basic NovaCraft, you'd be looking at spending apx £55 each for a pair of Old Town webbing seats and another £70 for a deep dish yoke, so that's an extra £180 you're looking at. You'd probably have to buy different seat fittings/bolts etc as well.

No doubt you could shop around and do it a bit cheaper of course.

Here's how Nova Craft and Old Town's basic boats actually compare price wise:
http://www.canoesandkayaks.co.uk/pro...tic_Prospector

http://www.canoesandkayaks.co.uk/pro...Canoe_Old_Town

If you actually want plastic seats with backrests etc then the choice is obvious.




best wishes

Steve

Cain't argue your logic on the other points, but here in Florida it gets VERY hot (today's high will be over 100f and that's pretty much normal) The only pepole who use wicker seats are doing so for astetics, They're very uncomfortable in the heat and have a tendencie to rot away every year or so.

[rancid badger]

I might have missed something here but who mentioned wicker seats?

[santaman2000]

I might have missed something here but who mentioned wicker seats?

Sorry. WEBBING seats. I tend to think of then interchangeably as far as comfor; but it's true that only wicker is usually preferred for astectics.