The Amish as a source

[Charlz9mm]

Actually when their children turn 16 they're sent away to experience the outside world. Usually a few months to a year of almost total debauchery before they choose whether or not to return.

Not all communities do this. The ones here do not.

[santaman2000]

Didn't I read somewhere that some of their stricter members been beating up and beard-shaving some of their members who weren't quite orthodox enough? Big court case in the USA if I remember correctly.

Beard shavings, yes; beatings, no. No violence invilved. They are often the victims of crime because they refuse to fight back or even resist.

[Toddy]

and they learn to be capable adults, they learn to thrive in a community that supports itself, that cares for it's disabled, it's elderly and infirm. No unwanted children, no unwanted, uncared for old folks mouldering with neither respect nor dignity in anonymous care homes.

They make good, able farmers who don't despoil their lands with pollution, they are excellent craftsfolks and if their way of life was so un satisfactory then why do over 80% of their young become full communicants and participants within their traditional lifestyle ? Their youth are allowed, indeed expected, to run wild for a while, so they do get a chance to see what's outside their communities.

There are those who would argue that while our lifestyles are untenable long term, their's certainly is. Population control might become an issue in the future though, but I'm sure they'll manage to address that in due course. Their society isn't static or frozen, it just moves at it's own pace and shuns politics and outside control, and there are shisms and divides among them enough to mean that their choices are current, and not locked in like armed cults.


Okay then, Mod hat on.

We have had complaints about this thread.
I will reiterate the rules, "No politics, no religion, no racism", and ask that we all pay heed.
So far we've been pretty good, but it might be better to concentrate on the OP's idea and maybe focus on the skills they have that might be relevant to 'this' community instead of criticising their social structure.

cheers,
Toddy

[sandbender]

"...I feel sorry for the children. Never get to see the world, experience other cultures, choose their own partner, speak their own mind, discover the infinite wonders of science, see the sea, scuba-dive, sail a boat, ride a motorbike, or otherwise enjoy all this magnificent world and civilisation has to offer..."

That pretty much goes for ninety odd percent of the children on the planet.

However the Amish have a period for 'adolescents' refered to as 'Rumspringa'. Which (and it varies from community to community) will allow a young Amish man or woman to experience all of those things (and more) for several months or even several years eventually either choosing to remain in the world of the 'English' or return to their communities.

[Tengu]

Oh, Im in favour of the Amish

But Im also in favour of this new fangled thing called `Progress`

[santaman2000]

Not all communities do this. The ones here do not.

Would you see it if they did? The ones I know of send their children to big cities out of state.

[rik_uk3]

Oh, Im in favour of the Amish

But Im also in favour of this new fangled thing called `Progress`

They live in a stable community, family support, next to zero crime et al so perhaps they have progressed more than us.

[santaman2000]

They live in a stable community, family support, next to zero crime et al so perhaps they have progressed more than us.

Partly true Rik. They don't COMMIT crimes but their lifestyle often makes them targets of outside criminals. Robbers/rapists love to break into Amish homes because they know they won't resist and have no phone to call police. we always got calls much to late to help actually them; we could only investigate after the fact (not that that's uncommon with the rest of the population)

[Tengu]

Mnn, yes.

Why dont we all aspire to live that way?

[Andy BB]

Beard shavings, yes; beatings, no. No violence invilved. They are often the victims of crime because they refuse to fight back or even resist.

To me, the removal by force of a hugely-important symbol - as I believe the beard is in their culture - is violence by definition. And it wasn't just beards - they also cut the hair of both men and women.

"Several members of the group living in Bergholz carried out the attacks in September, October and November by forcibly cutting the beards and hair of Amish men and women and then taking photos to shame them, authorities have said."

Not violent? I think most would beg to differ....

[Tengu]

But these events are noteworthy because they are so exceptional

[Andy BB]

But these events are noteworthy because they are so exceptional

Agreed. Or should I say, they were exceptional because they were actually reported to the police and made public? From everything I've seen and read about the Amish, they tend to keep their issues within the community, and rarely call in outside help.

I guess I just find it rather interesting that a bushcrafting site like this one - whose members are, on the whole , fiercely independent and protective of their right to do what they want to do without let or hindrance - should find this type of autocratic, limited and stifling way of life so fascinating, however bucolic it might appear on the surface!

[santaman2000]

To me, the removal by force of a hugely-important symbol - as I believe the beard is in their culture - is violence by definition. And it wasn't just beards - they also cut the hair of both men and women.

"Several members of the group living in Bergholz carried out the attacks in September, October and November by forcibly cutting the beards and hair of Amish men and women and then taking photos to shame them, authorities have said."

Not violent? I think most would beg to differ....

Their beards are NOT symbolic. They have them because to shave would require personal vanity and a mirror (which WOULD be symbolic of personal vanity) Both of which are abhored by the Amish.

As to the reports of force, I frankly have serious doubts about their authenticity (merely because it is so out of character for the Amish) but I won't dispute them (merely because I wasn't there) IF!! And I do mean IF!! they are true, then it is unlikely that whoever perpetrated such acts are still allowed within their respective communities.

[Toddy]

Second time of asking folks; please return the thread to the topic, re craft skills of interest to bushcrafters.

M

[ReamviThantos]

No community is perfect however some are more perfect than others and given the balance of consideration, on what I have seen of several "communities" albeit in a limited sense, theirs is considerably more towards the better end of the scale than the one I currently find myself a part of. Perhaps this says more about myself than them.

[sandbender]

"...should find this type of autocratic..."

Perhaps part of the appeal is that it isn't autocratic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnung

[Laurentius]

I feel sorry for the children. Never get to see the world, experience other cultures, choose their own partner, speak their own mind, discover the infinite wonders of science, see the sea, scuba-dive, sail a boat, ride a motorbike, or otherwise enjoy all this magnificent world and civilisation has to offer.

But they make pretty quilts, so thats ok then......

Rumspringa notwithstanding?

[Charlz9mm]

When walking through their shops I am amazed at what handy work they take for granted.

[robin wood]

Oh, Im in favour of the Amish

But Im also in favour of this new fangled thing called `Progress`

I have little personal experience of the Amish so am loath to comment but....
Back in the 80s a friend and I led a Student Conservation Association program trail building on the Appalachian Trail. 8 kids 16-18 living up the hill in a camp for 5 weeks and working on a section of trail. It was quite an experience for all of us. We had one Amish lad with us and he gave me a fair insight into both the pros and the cons of the life. Maybe he was at that stage of deciding whether it was the right life for him or not as most of us question the life we have been brought up with when we are that age.
He told me that with regard to technology when any new invention came along the elders met and talked long and hard about whether this development was actually beneficial to society or not. Now it may or may not work in practice but I find the thought of a group of wise old souls taking that decision interesting, as against our system that says, does it pay? and is it against any current law, no? then we will do it.
The lad concerned was the only one of our group that came to us with basic skills, could light and maintain a fire and cook on it, basic camp hygiene, use tools, build structures, get on with people etc. In fact so much so that my co-leader ended up giving him a job.

I do find the use of the word cult rather loaded.

[Charlz9mm]

To put the cultural issues to bed I would say that one must look at the Amish the same way we look at tribes in the Amazon. There is much to learn, much is strange but they have a culture that must be respected (barring law breaking). They neither need nor asked for our approval. Their skills are priceless if the grid went down as are Amazonian tribal skills if lost in the rainforest.

[Andy T]

I know very little about the Amish and so i've found this thread very interesting. One small point, if they shun all modern technology what did they use to take the photographs of the members they had shaved ?

[sandbender]

I know very little about the Amish and so i've found this thread very interesting. One small point, if they shun all modern technology what did they use to take the photographs of the members they had shaved ?

I don't know.

However they do not shun all modern technology, you can read the 'Ordnung' link above for more details, new technologies or devices are subject to a 'review process' to ascertain whether or they might encourage the wrong kind of outlook, thoughts and actions.

So a phone in your house - no

A phone in an unlocked outbuilding or barn - yes

An electricity supply from the 'outside' world - no

Gas bottles to heat an animal barn or workshop - yes

All very odd to us, but it works for them, mostly.

[Biker]

Gotta say I love the whole concept of taking a certain pride in something you've made for its form and function. I'm not a big fan of unecessary embelishing or decoration. Saying that though carvings are a whole different ballgame. Another style I like is the Shaker style furniture, clean and smiple lines on that too, whereas Baroque furniture is the other end of the scale. Pig ugly. Clever, but just too much. Gothic style is nicer but in a way another example of the maker just showing off.

Seeing that the Amish ethic seems to be form and function yeah we could learn a lot from them, and in some respect their whole lifestyle. There's a lot of positives about being in a community that actually cares for it's own.

Interesting post. Thanks.

[demographic]

Some Amish do some very nice woodworking.
Plus I don't know about anyone else here but there's something I like about using handtools to make things.
I suppose it depends on pricing and so on as productivity is (or at least can be in the right hands) far higher with powertools but I remember an old joiner who lived close to us having a waterwheel powered workshop. I went round his workshop as a kid and was fascinated by all the belts across the place and the water powered tools. He managed just fine.

Can't remember him carving any spoons though...

[bronskimac]

At first glance a simple community lifestyle is very attractive. But realistically, for me, there would need to be several modern gadgets to survive:
Electricity (locally generated)
Internet, probably (still need my hit of BCUK)
Tractor and ploughs or at least a rotavator
Locally produced fuel for the tractor/rotavator

For farming it would be nice to use a horse or horses to plough, harrow, haul trees etc. Not sure at what scale horse power gives way to tractor in terms of time for tasks, acreage in a given time and cost of running. As a kid I remember a plank saw running with belts from a tractor. Perhaps the tractor could be used for electricity generation too?

Wind and Ground source heat pumps (my favourite) could also be used for electricity.

The first year would only be practical if there was money/stocks of foods and fuel to keep the community going until crops come to harvest. If we have a season like this one the security of our crops would be in grave danger. If the woodland is large enough to sustain harvesting for our needs and provide a surplus, then logs sales will bring in cash.

A sustainable woodland is probably the best solution for fuel.

Ideally we will have a collection of artisans why can shoe the horse(s), beat metal into usable shapes, build our beds, tables and chairs. More likely in the early days we will either have to muddle through or use money to buy in the skills/products.

My gut feeling is that a self sustaining community has a minimum number of members and a maximum, largely based on the land and woodland size.

So whose putting up the land and woodland?

[BillyBlade]

Mnn, yes.

Why dont we all aspire to live that way?

And yet, I don't. Sorry if thats not 'bushcrafty' or in the spirit of things.

I have a personality, and a free will, and a desire to experience new places and cultures. I also enjoy contact physical sports and one on one competitions with the same, both competing (although, it's at senior level now, and thats more about age than skill!) andwatching the same.

I will also protect my family. to mine or others death if I have to, from outside harm.

I also admire technology, and the pursuit of understanding. But then I'm Scottish with an engineering degree, and come from a small nation that has given the world more than I could ever list here. See link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...nd_discoveries

All in then, I'd make a pretty rubbish Amish.

Not for me.

[Dreadhead]

it seems everyone is completely ignoring the mods here. to get back on track a little does anyone know what firelighting tools they use as im curious if they use matches or fire steels etc. and perhaps what sort of knives they might use? they are not buying rambo knives off the shopping channels so would imagine they use fairly traditional styled knives probably passed down through their community

[sandsnakes]

Interesting lot the Amish.

Pal of mine and his wife were the doctors to a local community, it got a bit problematic when there was only one telephone per community and that was in a box in the middle of the street... no one could be bothered to answer it!

From the observations of Graham and Whitney the Amish sort of live in both worlds as they will trade with comunities who deal in more modern goods, so its not the utopian world that many wish for and of course who is going to distill the kerosen for the lamps?

Given there stand point the Amish have a rich cultural and well researched body of useable herbal knowlege that covers everything from medicine to meat preservation. W&G were invited to lots of pig slaughtering parties which were hard to endure, also could not wear buttons on there clothing when visiting, or zips for that matter. When visiting they wore long grey coats which made them look like extras in a vampire move! When I asked Whitey, who was a Plain Quaker, if she could live the life she replied 'hard, cold, tough, long hours and the shoes areawful'.

They do have a very strong sense of community so indivduals who fall on misfortune do not go hungry and the old are cared for. They said if you think of a turn of the century (1901) farming community that would be about what it was like. So if your interested look at the TV programs Victorian and Edwardian farm


Sandsnakes

[rik_uk3]

it seems everyone is completely ignoring the mods here. to get back on track a little does anyone know what firelighting tools they use as im curious if they use matches or fire steels etc. and perhaps what sort of knives they might use? they are not buying rambo knives off the shopping channels so would imagine they use fairly traditional styled knives probably passed down through their community

Matches, zippo lighters, they use candles but also coleman lanterns and paraffin lamps. They don't shun technology par se, they are just a lot more selective on what technology they embrace.

[Dreadhead]

cheers Rik. i thought they would have taken a more sustainable approach what with their ideals but maybe im not getting it clearly. also wonder about their methods for woodland management id like to think they use teams of 2-3 with axes and hand saws