Carbon Monoxide tent deaths. Can we do something positive?

[Andy BB]

Pointing out that legislation (as suggested by another poster) to address this issue is massively counter-productive to personal freedoms is hardly trolling. However, I accept that as the OP you can exercise your authority to limit the debate, so will take no further part in this.

[shaggystu]

Possibly from your statement " i just think that the idea that people somehow have an inherent ability to safely use a caravan gas heater is a "step too far into the realms of fantasy" "!.....

in that case you obviously did mis-understand me

My position is simple - if you have the equipment, you have a duty/responsibility to use it safely (in this case, installing CO monitors ad getting the heater maintained regularly).

i agree entirely, if you own a caravan park and are renting out your equipment then you do have a duty/responsibility to ensure that it's used safely, by putting up signs warning of the dangers for example. likewise, if you're manufacturing/selling something that could cause harm then i feel that you have a responsibility to the end user, at the bare minimum you probably should take some reasonable steps to ensure that your customer knows how to use the equipment safely. i think a warning label could be classed as reasonable steps.

Not sure about the risks? Look them up.

where?

If you are an adult, and mentally competent, you don't have a "get out of jail free" card by saying "It's someone else's fault for not putting a great warning big label on it, then training me in its use".

couldn't agree more

The risks have been publicised enough.

have they? where, when, and how did you decide that there's been "enough" publicity? what about the kid who lives across the road from me, he's only 3, has there been enough publicity to ensure that his kids are safe?

Who in this country is unaware that gas, electricity, fire and water can be dangerous if misused?

i was asked once, by an adult, a mentally competent adult (a medical student as it happens), if a crisp bag would burn if she put it on the open fire. never underestimate the stupidity of people

Take responsibility for your own actions, and don't blame anyone else if you get it wrong.

again, completely agreed

[FGYT]

As a single tax payer I often wonder why couples who have children should get benefits at all?

State sponsored reproduction programme. I want the government to pay me for not having any kids. Fair's fair.

Ah but if your not going to reproduce and add to the future we might as well get rid of you now to save resources for those that do
NO Kids to look after you in your old age means state funded care home

[Lister]

My thought would be:

If it is a commercial campsite e.g a caravan park (as opposed to a farmers field) then the duty of care is there under HASAWA* to ensure that all risks are minimised, to the campsite all this means is to say to visitors when they arrive disposable BBQs are not allowed in tents, with signage to back this up. It's not hard, it's not preachy.

I'm with most in the "darwinism" camp but i also understand you will get first-time campers and they won't think of the dangers BUT I would hope first-time campers go to attended caravan parks and so what i said above is backed up, granted they shouldn't have to but it will only be a matter of time before someone thinks:

"ah, that campsite is attended, it's a business, businesses have a duty of care under HASAWA for visitors*, I'll sue them"

* The duty of care only extends so far as to control the risks, yes the sites can ban disposable BBQs etc in tents but 1 it would be hard to police all night, 2 doing so would probably lose them trade and 3 they may not want to be seen as "preachy".

[Wayland]

Simples.... Ban all adults from having children unless passing a common-sense and intelligence test. I'm sure that'll save hundreds of lives.

Anyone willing to support that?

I think they tried that before.

They called it Eugenics...

[Lister]

I think they tried that before.

They called it Eugenics...

They do that in China, only problem is the asians are just too damn smart! </tongueincheek></notracist>

[FGYT]

My thought would be:

If it is a commercial campsite e.g a caravan park (as opposed to a farmers field) then the duty of care is there under HASAWA* to ensure that all risks are minimised, to the campsite all this means is to say to visitors when they arrive disposable BBQs are not allowed in tents, with signage to back this up. It's not hard, it's not preachy.

I'm with most in the "darwinism" camp but i also understand you will get first-time campers and they won't think of the dangers BUT I would hope first-time campers go to attended caravan parks and so what i said above is backed up, granted they shouldn't have to but it will only be a matter of time before someone thinks:

"ah, that campsite is attended, it's a business, businesses have a duty of care under HASAWA for visitors*, I'll sue them"

* The duty of care only extends so far as to control the risks, yes the sites can ban disposable BBQs etc in tents but 1 it would be hard to police all night, 2 doing so would probably lose them trade and 3 they may not want to be seen as "preachy".

unfortunately there are a massive number of risks you could do this with you would end up with a massive wall of very small print that no one would read any way.


there have been quite number of these deaths over the last few years that Ive seen on National level news so I would think it can be assumed it is within the public consciousness

[shaggystu]

OK, forget it. I'll move this subject to another forum with mature grown up members. Too many trolls here today.

that's a real shame, do you mind me asking where it's moved to? if it's anywhere that i'm a member of i'll look out for it there

[MartinK9]

Ah but if your not going to reproduce and add to the future we might as well get rid of you now to save resources for those that do
NO Kids to look after you in your old age means state funded care home

Not if I've spent within my means all my life, saved and have a plan in place to pay for it all.

[FGYT]

Not if I've spent within my means all my life, saved and have a plan in place to pay for it all.

Bu@@er that Burn it all while you can enjoy it

[MartinK9]

Bu@@er that Burn it all while you can enjoy it

[rik_uk3]

All campsites have rules, no harm in adding a warning about BBQ's/stoves/lanterns in tents either.

[santaman2000]

As a single tax payer I often wonder why couples who have children should get benefits at all?

State sponsored reproduction programme. I want the government to pay me for not having any kids. Fair's fair.

And who will pay the taxes to support your pension then? Believe it or not, declining birth rates are one of the economic problems facing Western governments (China also for that matter)

[santaman2000]

...i was asked once, by an adult, a mentally competent adult (a medical student as it happens), if a crisp bag would burn if she put it on the open fire. never underestimate the stupidity of people...

Actually not all of them do. The more modern foil ones come to mind.

[BareThrills]

As staycations and camping become more popular then it follows that some clueless people will come into contact with kit that they dont fully understand. Now it might seem obvious to most what the consequences are burning a stove etc indoors but there are people out there that really wont think about the obvious.

Andy BB is a prime example, After burning himself 4 times on the same brew kit he grasped fire is hot (please take that the way its intended Andy)

Anyway i digress, Im fully in favour of a printed warning pointing out the risks. When ive sold stoves on ebay ive always added a warning that it should only be used outdoors with a windshield. I do think people should be responsible for their actions but a little steer cant be a bad thing surely.

[MartinK9]

And who will pay the taxes to support your pension then? Believe it or not, declining birth rates are one of the economic problems facing Western governments (China also for that matter)

I have a Military pension so won't be claiming a State one if it still exists by the time I'm old enough to claim for it.

My point is that the State hands out benefits to couples in child support, when it should be the parents that provide for the child. If they can't afford to raise one on the money earnt, stop smoking/drinking watching sky plus or....don't have one. If it is a countrywide problem, then minimum wage should increase to pay for their upbringing, not me who hate the little rug rats.
Equal pay/taxes for all - that includes single,white,hetrosexual males. 188.gif

[Andy BB]

As staycations and camping become more popular then it follows that some clueless people will come into contact with kit that they dont fully understand. Now it might seem obvious to most what the consequences are burning a stove etc indoors but there are people out there that really wont think about the obvious.

Andy BB is a prime example, After burning himself 4 times on the same brew kit he grasped fire is hot (please take that the way its intended Andy)

Anyway i digress, Im fully in favour of a printed warning pointing out the risks. When ive sold stoves on ebay ive always added a warning that it should only be used outdoors with a windshield. I do think people should be responsible for their actions but a little steer cant be a bad thing surely.

Absolutely right.

But you also notice I didn't sue Walmart because the greasepot I was using didn't have a warning label on it warning of a hot handle when stuck on a fire. (Actually, I don't know if it had a warning or not, as I didn't read either the instructions or the label.) It was - in short - my stupidity and my fault. (and the tsiporo....) My responsibility - no-one else's. But I'm sure a good lawyer could make a case of negligence stick - why wasn't the warning label big enough that I couldn't avoid seeing it? Why wasn't I given proper training?

Maybe I should get the politicians to ban outdoor fires or cooking stoves unless under the supervision of the Fire Brigade. Absurd? Of course, but so is the GB Olympic pistol team having to train overseas because of the law.

[BareThrills]

There is a girl who lives in the house opposite with two kids that is a single parent. she gets her rent and council tax etc paid for her. she doesnt work. How is it fair that she gets to live in a bed semi when i have to graft to pay a mortgage and support my child. My sister in law is a scrounger. she has sky with all the channels too. id love sky sports but i have to prioritise my expenditure elsewhere. Im with Martin on this

For the record i do not receive any child benefits apart from the universal one and that will disappear in Jan next year.

If you want to bring children into this world then you should be able to look after them

[Andy BB]

And who will pay the taxes to support your pension then? Believe it or not, declining birth rates are one of the economic problems facing Western governments (China also for that matter)

True, although you could reverse that, and say its due to people living longer! In the UK, when the State Pension was introduced, at the time it was only expected to be paid a couple of years on average before the recipient died (retire at 65, die at 67). The lifespan is now considerably longer than 67, and getting bigger all the time. This is particularly a problem in the UK where the State Pension is funded out of current revenue, not capital. In short, the money you pay in taxes and social security contributions is used to pay Old Fred his pension this tax year, not put into a fund for your own, future use. So if the UK was forced to declare its actual liabilities in the same way as those companies with private pensions liabilities have to under national and international accounting laws, our national debt would literally be in the trillions of pounds.

So we need lots of little Jonnies and Marys to pay taxes to provide our state pension in our old age. THe problem is that Jonny and Mary need jobs first, otherwise they'll be on the dole, sucking money out of "our" pension funds....

[rik_uk3]

Actually not all of them do. The more modern foil ones come to mind.

I thought they would melt same as aluminium cans do?

[rik_uk3]

There is a girl who lives in the house opposite with two kids that is a single parent. she gets her rent and council tax etc paid for her. she doesnt work. How is it fair that she gets to live in a bed semi when i have to graft to pay a mortgage and support my child. My sister in law is a scrounger. she has sky with all the channels too. id love sky sports but i have to prioritise my expenditure elsewhere. Im with Martin on this

For the record i do not receive any child benefits apart from the universal one and that will disappear in Jan next year.

If you want to bring children into this world then you should be able to look after them

"The measure will affect people earning more than £42,475 a year." source: BBC

Getting back on track sort of, has anyone used a CO2 monitor in a tent or caravan?

[Tengu]

No, and I find that when I give good advice no one listens to me.

If some teens die though their own stupidity at a festival (ghastly places) its not my problem.

[santaman2000]

I thought they would melt same as aluminium cans do?

The Mylar ones do but not all of them.

[santaman2000]

True, although you could reverse that, and say its due to people living longer! In the UK, when the State Pension was introduced, at the time it was only expected to be paid a couple of years on average before the recipient died (retire at 65, die at 67). The lifespan is now considerably longer than 67, and getting bigger all the time. This is particularly a problem in the UK where the State Pension is funded out of current revenue, not capital. In short, the money you pay in taxes and social security contributions is used to pay Old Fred his pension this tax year, not put into a fund for your own, future use. So if the UK was forced to declare its actual liabilities in the same way as those companies with private pensions liabilities have to under national and international accounting laws, our national debt would literally be in the trillions of pounds.

So we need lots of little Jonnies and Marys to pay taxes to provide our state pension in our old age. THe problem is that Jonny and Mary need jobs first, otherwise they'll be on the dole, sucking money out of "our" pension funds....

Agreed. It's much the same over here.

[jorn]

Getting back on track sort of, has anyone used a CO2 monitor in a tent or caravan?

I have, well it's a CO or carbon monoxide monitor, since that's the real killer. Apperently CO2 doesn't kill as often because you'll smell the smoke before it kils you. Haven't tried this theory out though.
My monitor never went of though, even burning browncoal briquettes, which are notorious for CO emision.

[santaman2000]

I have a Military pension so won't be claiming a State one if it still exists by the time I'm old enough to claim for it.

My point is that the State hands out benefits to couples in child support, when it should be the parents that provide for the child. If they can't afford to raise one on the money earnt, stop smoking/drinking watching sky plus or....don't have one. If it is a countrywide problem, then minimum wage should increase to pay for their upbringing, not me who hate the little rug rats.
Equal pay/taxes for all - that includes single,white,hetrosexual males. 188.gif

I was speaking a bit tongue in cheek. However the logic is still true. I too have a military pension as well as a pension from the State of Florida for my second career. I hope to get my Social Security pension as well when I turn 66 but in the end it really doesn't affect the logic of my statement; they ALL come from the same base of taxpayer don't they? So we really do need replacements into the workforce/tax rolls.

And I agree with you totally about the taxation/benefits fairness issues.

[shaggystu]

......If some teens die though their own stupidity at a festival (ghastly places) its not my problem.

you not coming up to stainsby this year then tengu?

[Tengu]

Yes I am, and like as not Ill be on fire safety....

...And Ill be watching out for people misusing BBQs...

...And i hope they listen to me!

[shaggystu]

Yes I am....

glad to hear it mate, i shall look forward to seeing you there, i should imagine that you'll find me somewhere near the bar (in a professional capacity of course)

...And Ill be watching out for people misusing BBQs...

...And i hope they listen to me!

me too, i think we had to put out three skip fires last year from people throwing away disposable bbq's