Carrying meths & knife on public transport

[woodymellor]

Hi,

I am making a journey Oxford for a Woodland Ways weekend next week. I was thinking of taking my Mora knife and meths cooking set, I don't need them but I haven't used them yet and fancied getting to know them.

Does anyone have any advice on traveling on public transport with a knife and meths? I know there have been similar threads about knives before, but I am also wary of taking a bottle of meths. I will be getting a train to Victoria and then a coach to Oxford. I have seen random bag searches at Victoria before.

Any advice appreciated

Cheers,

Woody

[resnikov]

Have the meths in a proper fuel bottle or even the bottle you bought it in should be ok. As for your knife pack it in the bottom of your bag. You have a valid reason to be carrying it.

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[Karl82]

Agree with the above sound advice.

[Mesquite]

Have the meths in a proper fuel bottle or even the bottle you bought it in should be ok. As for your knife pack it in the bottom of your bag. You have a valid reason to be carrying it.

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The only advice I'd add to that is have the details of your course with you as well to add weight to your reasons for carrying the knife

[Wildgoose]

As above. Before being searched you will be asked if you have anything dangerous or sharp in your possesion, that's the time to explain BEFORE anybody puts hands on your bag.
I'm no expert, but I think search dogs used on the transport network would probably pick up the scent of the meths. Have it in a suitable container.
Enjoy your trip

[mace242]

Hi,

I am making a journey Oxford for a Woodland Ways weekend next week. I was thinking of taking my Mora knife and meths cooking set, I don't need them but I haven't used them yet and fancied getting to know them.

Does anyone have any advice on traveling on public transport with a knife and meths? I know there have been similar threads about knives before, but I am also wary of taking a bottle of meths. I will be getting a train to Victoria and then a coach to Oxford. I have seen random bag searches at Victoria before.

Any advice appreciated

Cheers,

Woody

All good advice so far. I'd add just to not be worried. I have carried all of my kit to various places a fair few times by train and bus and never had a problem.

[santaman2000]

I won't go into the knife or the cooking set itself; but why not just buy the meths (the actual fuel) when you get to Oxford?

[Hammock Hamster]

As per the other posts you have a valid reason for carrying the knife in a public place provided it is kept in your bag and not waved about.
The meths should be in a suitable container but again for public transport it should not be an issue, think of the various flammable substances your average shopping bag contains.

I have carried my full bushcraft kit on buses and trains numerous times and provided you dont have anything sharp of obviously dangerous, axes/knives/saw, on display you wont even get a second glance.
I also used to belong to a local shooting club and transported air rifles back and forth on the bus in a custom gun slip (it was rectangular and had nothing to seuggest a gun was inside).
I was once stopped by the police and had an interesting 20 minute chat in the back of their car after first telling them what was inside then showing them.
Like most police officers, and no offence to any here, they did not fully understand the law surrounding carrying of air rifles, very similar to the knee jerk reaction most have when coming accross a knife in peaceful circumstances - i dont mean this as a dig at our boys in blue as i think on the whole they do a stellar job under increasingly difficult circumstances however with so many laws, bylaws etc... i dont believe anyone can know/understand every law and find for anything involving what i will loosley term as "weapons" (and im talking stop and search scenarios not some yobo waving a rambo knife in the street so there is no threat por danger implied) there is an instant assumption on that you have done something wrong.
Anyway after our chat in which i was polite and patient as i expalined it was legal for me to own and was transporting it from my home to a club where i have permission to use it they were happy to let me on my way, they were aware i was using the bus and made no comment - i expect from a police point of view a bus/train/coach or the side of the road it is all public place.

Sorry i just realised ive gone into rant mode and wandered off far off from the OP.

My point is you have genuine reasons for carrying your knife and a bottle of meths and there is no reason i am aware of why they could not bw taken, suitable packed, onto public transport.

Cheers, Hamster

[widu13]

HH, it very much sounds like they were doing their job? Saw something which required explanation and after you had done so allowed you on your way?

Don't forget that whilst it is legal to carry knives and small amounts of flammable liquid in public, many public transport operators prohibit their carriage. Quite a few operators out of Victoria do NOT allow knives. It's their company and their rules! All the time they aren't discovered- fine, otherwise travel will be refused.

[Hammock Hamster]

HH, it very much sounds like they were doing their job? Saw something which required explanation and after you had done so allowed you on your way?

Don't forget that whilst it is legal to carry knives and small amounts of flammable liquid in public, many public transport operators prohibit their carriage. Quite a few operators out of Victoria do NOT allow knives. It's their company and their rules! All the time they aren't discovered- fine, otherwise travel will be refused.

Hi Widu,

I fully agree they were doing their job and have no problem participating in a stop and search as i know i will always have a valid reason to have anything i may be carrying.
IMO there were no circumstances for them to feel a search was required as i was simply standing at a bus stop reading a book when they approached but that is by the by.
The only thing that gets me, and i should have stated this before, is at the beginning of the conversation one of the officers was quite rude and basically implied that i had an illegal firearm which they would be confiscating and a trip to the station would be involved.
As you said it all worked out in the end, mainly due to the common sense approach by his colleague, but it annoys me that i had to be the one to point out the fact that both owning, transporting etc... my equipment was in fact lawful.

I have to confess i hadnt thought about the transport operators own rules though i would suggest from experience they are more of a small print issue and as you say if suitably packed there should be no issues, i cant imagine they would refuse travel to say an elderly woman who has just purchased a new kitchen knife or a tradesman travelling to work with a stanley blade in his toolbag.

Hamster

[FGYT]

pretty sure British rail dont allow knives buthisis company policy not law

ATB

Duncan

[Perrari]

Wouldnt of thought the meths would be a problem, you could buy it in a shop and take it home on the bus, so why not be allowed to carry it on the bus elsewhere ?
The knife should also be ok as long as it remains in the bottom of your bag, dont take it out to look at it and alarm Joe Public, and dont carry it in your pocket.
Usually when I carry a knife in public I double bag it first then put it in the bottom of my rucksack just to try & give the impression that there is no intention of getting it out on route.(maybe this is a lame idea but it makes me feel safer).
If you are unfortunate enough to have your bag searched be nice & polite and explain why you have it. It is clear to me that you have a very valid reason for carrying it, so you should be able to convince the bag searchers the same.

[FGYT]

Wouldnt of thought the meths would be a problem, you could buy it in a shop and take it home on the bus, so why not be allowed to carry it on the bus elsewhere ?
The knife should also be ok as long as it remains in the bottom of your bag, dont take it out to look at it and alarm Joe Public, and dont carry it in your pocket.
Usually when I carry a knife in public I double bag it first then put it in the bottom of my rucksack just to try & give the impression that there is no intention of getting it out on route.(maybe this is a lame idea but it makes me feel safer).
If you are unfortunate enough to have your bag searched be nice & polite and explain why you have it. It is clear to me that you have a very valid reason for carrying it, so you should be able to convince the bag searchers the same.

Main problem is BRail dont allow knives regardless of reason . So they can if they find one refuse you access to the station and your train with it. Their house their rules

[mrcharly]

1) BR don't exist anymore

2) Many stations are operated by a Train Operating Company (TOC) rather than Network Rail

3) I've been searched (by a police officer) on York station with a locking SAK in my bag - no issues.

Apart from that, as you say, it's their house, their rules.

[FGYT]

1) BR don't exist anymore

2) Many stations are operated by a Train Operating Company (TOC) rather than Network Rail

3) I've been searched (by a police officer) on York station with a locking SAK in my bag - no issues.

Apart from that, as you say, it's their house, their rules.

ok jsut generic term


was it a police officer or a British Rail police officer
one will enforce the Law of the land
one will enforce the law and rules of the Trains house rules who ever runs them

[resnikov]

Normal police have no jurisdiction on the railways and stations and transport police have no jurisdiction off the railways.

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[mrcharly]

I think normal police have jurisdiction everywhere.

It was a normal police officer.

It is important to recognise that the 'rules' on one station might be different from another. For instance, I believe that Eurostar operate a no-tolerance policy to carrying knives on board the eurostar trains.

[ged]

As far as the carrying of knives is concerned, travel by rail in the UK is not unlike travel by air.

You won't be asked to walk through a metal detector on every train journey, but you can be asked. If you refuse, you will be denied travel.

Many people misunderstand the nature of our railway system, and comments like "it's a public place, so [random faulty deduction]" are a common result.

Between 1994 and 1996 the government sold all our railway assets to private organisations, many of which were set up expressly for the purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privati...f_British_Rail

As a result, all railway property in the UK is private property, not public property, and the property owners are entitled, within reason, to forbid whatever they want to forbid.

Given the large amount of criminal activity which takes place on railway property, some of which involves the use of knives, the rail operators have taken a fairly strong stance on carrying knives on railway property. They have simply forbidden it. They will occasionally ask passengers to pass through metal detectors in 'intelligence led' operations designed to deter the carrying of knives and other items which could be misued. If you get picked up by one of these operations, expect at least to spend some time trying to explain why you were breaking the rules, and prepare for the possibility of your travel plans being modified by your arrest. Don't expect to see your sharps again unless you're lucky enough to have met an especially understanding member of the British Transport Police who happens already to be over his performance criterion.

http://www.btp.police.uk/passengers/...ife_crime.aspx

[Stringmaker]

As far as the carrying of knives is concerned, travel by rail in the UK is not unlike travel by air.

You won't be asked to walk through a metal detector on every train journey, but you can be asked. If you refuse, you will be denied travel.

Many people misunderstand the nature of our railway system, and comments like "it's a public place, so [random faulty deduction]" are a common result.

Between 1994 and 1996 the government sold all our railway assets to private organisations, many of which were set up expressly for the purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privati...f_British_Rail

As a result, all railway property in the UK is private property, not public property, and the property owners are entitled, within reason, to forbid whatever they want to forbid.

Given the large amount of criminal activity which takes place on railway property, some of which involves the use of knives, the rail operators have taken a fairly strong stance on carrying knives on railway property. They have simply forbidden it. They will occasionally ask passengers to pass through metal detectors in 'intelligence led' operations designed to deter the carrying of knives and other items which could be misued. If you get picked up by one of these operations, expect at least to spend some time trying to explain why you were breaking the rules, and prepare for the possibility of your travel plans being modified by your arrest. Don't expect to see your sharps again unless you're lucky enough to have met an especially understanding member of the British Transport Police who happens already to be over his performance criterion.

http://www.btp.police.uk/passengers/...ife_crime.aspx

Very good summary.

[sasquatch]

Common sense and all that, just pack it away well and crack on I'd say. That's what I'd do anyway...

[widu13]

I would just clarify Ged's post by pointing out that whilst a railway station is privately owned, it is still a public place as are train carriages.

Common sense and all that, just pack it away well and crack on I'd say. That's what I'd do anyway...

^^^Exactly^^^

[Wildgoose]

Normal police officers have juristiction on the railway, just as Btp have juristiction elsewhere.
If you are stopped in a public place (anywhere a section of the public have access whether by payment or otherwise) and have a knife or other weapon on you the burden of proof is on you to prove you have a reasonable excuse to having that item.
It is legal to carry a knife or firearm to/from a site but common sense must preveil. Most of the public aren't bushcrafters and the media around knives doesn't help our cause. A person who has a collection of knives would often be branded as having "a facination with weapons".
Take the knife, but take a stamped addressed jiffy bag also. If you are refused travel pop the knife in the post back to you. Have a sak in the bag too so your weekend won't be ruined if it is refused.

[woodymellor]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I'm sure this is a recurring issue. I have to say that I agree with many points made both for and against taking them. My own thoughts were largely summed up by Ged, which is that carrying a knife etc. in the street is one thing, but train/coach companies tend to be more proscriptive than one suspects - and even if I can give a good reason for carrying it to an inquisitive official, it may well at the least make me late for the start of the course (meaning that I wouldn't be able to find the group and effectively miss the whole weekend).

So I'm not so much concerned about whether I have the right to carry them, I was more asking if anyone thought I'd encounter trouble. I'm tempted to follow the advice of many of you which is to just take it, well hidden.

But on the other hand, the truth is neither the stove or the knife is on the kit list (presuably knives are provided, I just fancied using my own!), so I think I might leave them as I don't want to run the risk of being delayed. If I was just off on a weekend away on my own, then I'd probably do it.

Thanks again,

Woody.

[santaman2000]

As far as the carrying of knives is concerned, travel by rail in the UK is not unlike travel by air...

Then things have changed since I was there. Back then the railways (BR at the time) didn't have any provision for checked baggage (I belive you call it hold baggage) whereas the airlines do. What's allowed in checked baggage where the passenger has no access to it while enroute is quite a bit more lenient than what's allowed in carry-on.

[ged]

Normal police officers have juristiction on the railway, just as Btp have juristiction elsewhere.
If you are stopped in a public place (anywhere a section of the public have access whether by payment or otherwise) and have a knife or other weapon on you the burden of proof is on you to prove you have a reasonable excuse to having that item.
It is legal to carry a knife or firearm to/from a site but common sense must preveil. Most of the public aren't bushcrafters and the media around knives doesn't help our cause. A person who has a collection of knives would often be branded as having "a facination with weapons".
Take the knife, but take a stamped addressed jiffy bag also. If you are refused travel pop the knife in the post back to you. Have a sak in the bag too so your weekend won't be ruined if it is refused.

As far as railway travel is concerned this isn't a s139 issue. The SAK is still a knife and it is not permitted on the railways.

[Andy BB]

Whilst I accept they have the right to ban knives on the railways, I don't believe they have any right to confiscate them. They can't have it both ways!

[ged]

As far as the carrying of knives is concerned, travel by rail in the UK is not unlike travel by air. ...

Then things have changed since I was there. Back then the railways (BR at the time) didn't have any provision for checked baggage (I belive you call it hold baggage) whereas the airlines do. What's allowed in checked baggage where the passenger has no access to it while enroute is quite a bit more lenient than what's allowed in carry-on.

Of course you're right that baggage handling is very different by rail and by air, and I have carried knives in my airline checked-in baggage with no problems.

But yes things have changed a lot since the BR days, .

[789987]

wear the knife proudly on your belt and if anyone questions it explain loudly that you are a bushcrafter like that ray mears guy off the telly. then demonstrate your skills by dispatching a nearby pigeon, frying it up in your meths cookset and offering a taste to the individual involved.

dont take no for an answer. only once they have experienced the delights of your simple fare will they be converted.

p.s. a squirrel will do if there are no available pigeons.

[ged]

wear the knife proudly on your belt and if anyone questions it explain loudly that you are a bushcrafter like that ray mears guy off the telly. then demonstrate your skills by dispatching a nearby pigeon, frying it up in your meths cookset and offering a taste to the individual involved.

dont take no for an answer. only once they have experienced the delights of your simple fare will they be converted.

p.s. a squirrel will do if there are no available pigeons.

That's a great idea! Why did nobody come up with it before?

Now I think about it, instead of a backup SAK you could just take a squirrel with you. If and when challenged, pop out the squirrel, gut it on the spot, light the meths burner and cook it. You've explained the need for the knife AND the meths all in one, and cooked your dinner into the bargain!

[Laurentius]

I have never ever, been questioned about carrying anything "iffy"

I can remember a few years back now, sitting in the foyer of my further education college with a deactivated machine gun in a bag, at the same time as the police were called for some unspecified incident. Did they even notice me sitting in the foyer? No! And did I have a legitimate reason for having said deactivated weapon if they had singled me out. Yes! It was being used in a theatrical production.

The idea that carrying meths (other than boarding a plane with it) could be considered as "Iffy" is just incomprehensible to me. I go to the hardware, and buy a bottle of meths, and catch the bus home, where is the problem? It might be white spirit, it might be a small gas cylinder, you need to be able to transport these things and although I have seen these really silly stories where an ignorant bus driver has turned off somebody carrying a pot of paint, that is the exception not the rule.