sober camping

[Toddy]

I'm presuming that your digging is at me Urban X ?

You don't know me, so please don't presume to imply that I have a problem with people who drink; I don't, I just deal with it as necessary; but I do have a problem with those whose attitude stirs a thread after a Mod asked that it be kept peaceable.

Drink what you like in the peace of your own home or company of your choosing, but don't rail against those who chose not to drink when out. If you're feeling defensive might I suggest you have a think why ? it's not that you're the only person who enjoys wine with his dinner, but that's hardly the issue, is it ?

Clear enough now ?

Toddy

[Urban X]

No it's not clear at all the person with a problem with people who drink alcohol is clearly the OP and NOT you, you just appear to have a problem with me as I have a drink 'every day'!

Please see PM Toddy!


Si

[santaman2000]

I think the biggest difference is really that those who enjoy a drink and actually enjoy it, are one thing, but those who 'need' a drink, are another entirely.

I work with people who definitely fall / fell, into the latter camp and it's not funny, it's not comfortable to be around them. Drunken midnight phone calls, drunken rages and aggressive 'socialising', are not relaxing.

It'd be excellent if in our culture people who got drunk became calmer, sleepier, peaceable; unfortunately the opposite is more often the reality.

Of all the meets I've been at, only one had a problem with drink taken to extremes. It's been dealt with and is more than unlikely to happen again.

However, outside of bushcraft meets, I have been at a camp where a drunk threw his girlfriend into the fire after she spilled his glass, another where an idiot opened up his thigh with a knife when carving, one where a fight broke out and two men rolled into the fire, another where a persistant letch let the drink be his excuse for invading the tent of a young lady who had no intention of spending any time with him.....though that's even handed, I know of one female who really should be arrested for groping when she's too many sheets to the wind

Fun's fun, but the hell with nonsense.

Toddy

Your differentiation between those who "enjoy" a drink and those who "need" a drink is pretty close to the defintion of an alcoholic. But it's interesting to note that while many alcoholics do exhibit the agressive or obnoxious tendencies you describe, the vast majority of alcoholics DON'T. Rather they "need" their drinks to be "normal." You'd only really notice something odd if they miss their drinks. In the trade (police, rehab, medical) they're referred to as "functional" alcoholics because they can only function with a certain level of Blood/Alcohol Content.

[NetFrog]

Your differentiation between those who "enjoy" a drink and those who "need" a drink is pretty close to the defintion of an alcoholic. But it's interesting to note that while many alcoholics do exhibit the agressive or obnoxious tendencies you describe, the vast majority of alcoholics DON'T. Rather they "need" their drinks to be "normal." You'd only really notice something odd if they miss their drinks. In the trade (police, rehab, medical) they're referred to as "functional" alcoholics because they can only function with a certain level of Blood/Alcohol Content.

Very well said. However it is interesting how the thread has turned from not having a drink into total alcoholism, it is obviously a divided subject with extremes.

[Toddy]

Some of the people I work with are, 'recovering alcoholics', others just simply claim they like a drink, like at any time they can afford it, or opportunity arises.
'Functioning' alcoholics are an odd bunch tbh. One steals drinks in pubs, from fellow students who leave stuff in communal kitchens, etc., yet another is the most miserable creature alive until she's got two or three in her and then she seems perfectly normal; until her mood changes and she 'needs' that next drink.
The former is an aggressive alcoholic and his behaviour causes both aggression and dispute. The latter just comes across as slightly too much in need of a lot of coffee

None of these people are folks I would call social drinkers though, and that's really what the thread was about, no? To drink when out bushcrafting/camping, or not ?

Tbh I think it depends on the company, the site, the intent of the time out.
Most course providers clearly ask for no alcohol to be taken on site, presumably with good reason.
I've no objection to folks enjoying the company and a drink around the fire, I do object to the glaikit stupidity I have seen at some campfires, not bushcraft ones I hasten to add.
I do think that camps where alcohol socialising is the main evening relaxation do miss out on the enjoyment of the night itself though Damned few quiet drinking sessions, iimmc.
Time and place.

On that note, I've just minded I still need to strain the sloe gin Ah, it'll be fine

cheers,
Toddy

[Toddy]

No it's not clear at all the person with a problem with people who drink alcohol is clearly the OP and NOT you, you just appear to have a problem with me as I have a drink 'every day'!

Please see PM Toddy!

Please read my posts with your thinking hat on, and your umbrage one off. Thank you.
PM replied to.

The OP said that he drinks, just that he's decided not to when out camping......he's not the one who posted about the 'damage' it causes.
Toddy

[NetFrog]

On that note, I've just minded I still need to strain the sloe gin Ah, it'll be fine

cheers,
Toddy

It needs strained? I usually give it 24 hours in the bottle to turn a mild pink then drink at will

[cbr6fs]

I usually try and cram 1 tin of Guinness in my backpack, i save it for a quiet night and sit and drink it while looking up at the stars and contemplating life.

Had a mate that used to take a bottle of spirits out with him (whiskey, rum, brandy, he didn't seem to mind) he'd drink till he started to get to the point of slurring his words.
Found he was more a liability (tripping over guy lines, over stocking the fire etc etc) and he talked crap when like that so i don't bother going camping with him any more.
He's still a good mate as he is a decent bloke when sober, but i strongly believe that out in the wilds is not the time or the place to get drunk.

His excuse was it helped him sleep.
Got to be something wrong somewhere when you NEED to drink (or think you do) to sleep.

Each to their own really, i do kinda feel sorry for the guys that feel the need to drink more than the odd beer when out camping.
Not only are they putting their own lives in danger they are endangering everyone else that they are camping with.

Alcohol severely loosens our inhibitions, but it also severely clouds our thought process and judgement.
Walking around a camp in the middle of a forest tipsy is pretty irresponsible, i have seen folks attempt carving and cutting wood severely inebriated though, funny thing is the following morning they were horrified.

Probably he most dangerous was a few mates and i cycled across the USA, it was bitterly cold one night and a mate thought it a good idea to warm himself up with some JD.
If it wasn't for the one single car that past us all night stopping i'm certain he'd have died of hypothermia.

As i say camping outdoors can be dangerous, add fire, guy lines, rivers etc to that the danger increases, throw in some cold weather and i strongly believe that you really need all your wits about you.

So to sum up, my opinion is that a can of beer or a tipple of spirits is fine.
But if anyone is drinking more than a couple of pints or 2 shots i do not want to be anywhere near them when out camping.




Cheers
Mark

[Toddy]

Nah, it steeps for a few months, sometimes I get distracted and forget about it. I reckoned a year was too long though.
I still don't get the appeal of the removed sloes though I just compost them, but folks claim that they're good with chocolate, or just as a munchie

Have you tried them with whisky ? Eds made some I tried up at Loch Tay, and it was very good indeed. Inspired me to have a go too

cheers,
Toddy

[NetFrog]

My baby

Nah, it steeps for a few months, sometimes I get distracted and forget about it. I reckoned a year was too long though.
I still don't get the appeal of the removed sloes though I just compost them, but folks claim that they're good with chocolate, or just as a munchie

Have you tried them with whisky ? Eds made some I tried up at Loch Tay, and it was very good indeed. Inspired me to have a go too

cheers,
Toddy

[John Fenna]

Probably he most dangerous was a few mates and i cycled across the USA, it was bitterly cold one night and a mate thought it a good idea to warm himself up with some JD.
If it wasn't for the one single car that past us all night stopping i'm certain he'd have died of hypothermia.

JD is always a bad idea!
I tend to have a nice glass of Whisky before dinner most week nights, perhaps a beer (half pint only) or some homemade wine (small glass) in the evening once or twice a week and 3/4 of a bottle of wine (the wife has the rest) with sunday dinner.
I rarely go to a pub as it is to expensive and my meet drinking mirrors my "normal" drinking. I hate to be out of control of myself so do not do "drunk" (at least - not very often ie perhaps I get more "relaxed" than normal once or twice a year!) - puking, world spinning etc I have not done since I was a teen - and I have never had a hangover in my life!
I feel sorry (and have worked with ) folk who let the booze take over their lives ... addiction is addiction if it is cheap beer or heroin.
Social drinking or actually enjoying a drink is one thing - getting trashed is another and that I think just spoils a meet, for those who do it and waste a day with a hangover as well as for those who have to put up with an unpleasant drunks antics.
I can see the OPs point but in my pack for this weekend there is a bottle of wine and a part bottle of sloe gin - a bottle that has been to a couple of meets now....

[drewdunnrespect]

a hip flask of jd for a weekends camp and well a bottle for a week and well two for anything longer depending on who i am going with

drew

[Lister]

a 4pack for a week camp does me quite nicely

[rik_uk3]

One or two here who've camped with me in the past would be surprised at how little I drink these days. One of the TB meds literally killed the taste of booze for me (Isoniazid, similar effect to Antabuse) and I've never recovered the taste for beer or lager, maybe one can to be sociable but to be honest me and camp buddy Nigel (who loved his beer too) now drink wine when camping, a three litre box will do us for a weekend including using some for cooking. We enjoy a wee dram of something at the end of the day/after a meal but its lots of tea or fresh coffee on trips now.

I enjoy a drink, pretty much always have one with dinner, wine or cider these days, love a G&T/Cognac/Port but I'm a shadow of the man in terms of consumption I once was.

[Tiley]

I snore pretty noisily. When I've had a drink, my snoring can make the leaves fall off the trees in summer. In the interests of not being excluded from any shared experience in the wilds with friends, I tend not to drink. I also reckon that conversation is more interesting when the flames of it are not fanned by alcohol. In a bushcrafty scenario, there are also significant safety issues with fire and sharp objects being around. There's also the thing where, as I get older, I find that, like Cassio in "Othello", "I have unhappy brains for drinking".

Still, each to their own as long as it's done with consideration on all sides.

[santaman2000]

I snore pretty noisily. When I've had a drink, my snoring can make the leaves fall off the trees in summer. In the interests of not being excluded from any shared experience in the wilds with friends, I tend not to drink. I also reckon that conversation is more interesting when the flames of it are not fanned by alcohol...

Interesting point about how alcohol affects conversation. I've seen it work as a lubricant easing and aiding good conversation and also seen it act as an embolming fluid draining the blood of any real conversation.

[Toddy]

.......it's all those trains of thought that seem to become derailed and side-lined into, "Well, y'know what ah mean."
Actually watching two drunks have a 'conversation' is like watching Les Dawson do his housewife from hell routine

cheers,
M

[oldtimer]

Clearly its the abuse of alcohol that is the problem and the addiction involved, not alcohol itself. I stopped smoking years ago because I ran out of tobacco on a trek and found I was really miserable without it. This addiction to a substance seemed to me to be counter to my desire to be as self sufficient as possible. No tobacco = less stuff to pack, carry, organise, worry about running out of. Alcohol, similarly, but I'm fortunate in not being addicted to it. I feel sorry for those who are. I do take a little wine in a Platypus sometimes, but find I can do without it in the hills. Like others on this thread I have a few nights spoiled by drunken campers, but i can't remember any spoiled by sober people.


Has anyone mentioned the body- temperature lowering effect of alcohol in potentially hypothermic situations and consequent danger to life? It pops up in all the survival manuals I have read- and that's most of them!

[Mikey P]

I can take it or leave it. I have mentioned before though that I do not feel that alcohol and fires, knives and axes are a good mix (like drink driving - you need full control and a clear head around fire and sharps). I do not feel comfortable in those situations, nor do I understand the 'requirement' for alcohol, however much or little, to 'have a good time'. I like a drink but I don't think camp fires are the right place, especially with strangers or people I don't know well. Save it for the pub or at home.

[Woadhart]

Like others in the thread I used to drink more in my younger days when camping but even without drinking enough to induce a hangover I still found it lessened my appreciation of waking up in a beautiful spot if my first thought was "Where's the water" rather than "Wow, I'm lucky to be here".

These days I like to take one nice ale with me if I've walked in as nothing beats kicking back with a mug of ale after a long hike once the camp is set and the wood is prep'd imo, plus the empty bottle always comes in handy.

Other than that, one particular habit I have picked up with some of my mates as we have grown slightly more sophisticated with age is to each bring a different type of cheese plus oatcakes and then share the cheeses with a mug of red wine as a mid-afternoon treat at some convenient idyll on the way. I highly recommend it.

[Sttrory]

Only time ever drink is when out with my bivi.
And that's only a nip of 18 year old Balvenie

[Andy BB]

Toddy must go to some interesting camps! I used to go to bike rallies pretty much every weekend in my youth, and apart from one very noisy Hells Angel who wouldn't stop beating on an oil drum until threatened with an oil-drum enema, no-one stabbed himself or anyone else, attempted to rape anyone etc etc etc. And plenty of booze used to get consumed at these events, as any biker who's ever attended one will tell you......

Don't drink much any more, although enjoy an occasional snifter at the meets whilst trying to poison everyone else with weird and wonderful beverages obtained from various overseas locations. What I do dislike intensely is being preached to about the evils of xxxx. I'm old enough to make up my own mind, thanks very much.........

[Toddy]

I have an eclectic group of friends and I've been camping since I was an infant; it's a fair while.

We don't discuss religion and I don't think anyone's preaching, just giving opinions

I doubt the cretin was capable of rape, he was just determined and insistant that the young lady would enjoy his company scary for her though
Two of the other incidents happened among colleagues who really, really ought to have known better. The girlfriend/fire camp was among people that would be considered 'socially excluded'.

Drink affects everybody, rich and poor, educated or illiterate, young or old.
If you're not bothering anyone, or being a danger, do as you like, to my mind.

cheers,
Toddy

[Fat ferret]

Just seen this. For me I mostly just have a beer or 2, or red wine with meals or when I am making something in the shed after dinner. For some reason I had a bit much one night at the first meet I attended but can remember it all so can't have been too bad, I don't think I annoyed anyone too much. Sometimes I would miss a drink if I couldn't have one. I would usually take beers camping but no more than a six pack for a few days. Agree knives and fires don't mix with drinking but never been so drunk I have forgotten this.

Re sloe gin. I leave all ingredients in a demi john (spelling?) for a month shaking daily and then strain and bottle and leave for at least one year.

[dunedain]

Personally I take a pipe

[Wayland]

I think there is a huge amount of difference between enjoying a drink and alcohol abuse. Believe me I've seen both.

I do enjoy a drink but I'm also very aware of my sensible limits. I learned those limits of course by exceeding them foolishly when I was younger as I guess many of us did.

A drunken sot is never as entertaining as they believe they are and an incapable drunk is a liability in any camp, no doubt about it.

Having said that, a few beers around a camp fire in the gloaming when all the sharps have gone away can be a great pleasure.

As for the difference between "liking" and "needing" a drink there have been many a time when I've felt the need for a glass of wine to help me relax after a hard day. It's not every day of course but like many other drugs, such as coffee or tea, it has it's place if used in moderation.

I was brought up with two maxims which have served me well through life: "All things in moderation." and "Never drink alone."

[Mafro]

Spending 12 years playing in punk and folk bands, gigging up to 5 times a week and spending summers on the festival circuits surrounded me with alcohol. My teenage years were spent smashed on beer, cider and whiskey, but as I got older my drinking slowed down. I can't say that it did for all my friends though, and I lost a good friend to drink. Not that he died through alcohol, just that its taken control oh him. He has been arrested more times than I can remember for theft and threatening behaviour and extremes of sticking kitchen knives through his brothers bed and jumping up and down on the same brothers laptop.

That's an extreme though. That is the small percent that I have seen have their live controlled, and possibly ruined by alcohol. The friendships I have made over a pint far outweigh the friends I have lost over one.

[treelore]

i never drink when i'm out on my own, but do enjoy a good ale or srumpy when sat round the camp fire..but him also happy to sit and sip on a camp made soup or tea

[Barn Owl]

It's not the beer that makes me drunk,it's the pass arounds that catch you out.
I of course have very limited knowledge of such things...

[santaman2000]

...As for the difference between "liking" and "needing" a drink there have been many a time when I've felt the need for a glass of wine to help me relax after a hard day. It's not every day of course but like many other drugs, such as coffee or tea, it has it's place if used in moderation...

yeah, me too. When I posted about "needing alcohol" being part of the definition of alcoholism, I was talking about a regular or constant need. As you say it's just like any other drug (and alcohol is a drug) and should be used if truly needed just as you wold use an antibiotic, a sedative, an antihistimene, or whatever. The problem is only IF you need it regularly.