OT growing veg

[Baggy]

Hi all

I can barely grow grass so where do I start learning how to grow veg?

I have a garden 150ft by 20ft, the far end is shaded by an oak, I have a patch in front of a shed 20ft by 8ft where I could attempt to grow veg, It gets sun almost all day. the rest of the garden is grass so I could use some of that.

But I have no idea how to get started...

[beachlover]

What is the ground and soil like?
It's a bit late to go overboard with veg now, but possible to get veg plants from a garden centre in.
Think runner and climbing beans, dwarf French beans, courgettes, squash and perhaps leeks, carrots, lettuce and spring onions along with some tomato plants.
If you want to get some nets then perhaps you could have a go at some cabbages and other brassicas too.

Whatever you do this year, take a longer term view and have it thoroughly dug over and plenty of manure and organic stuff in before Xmas and If you get the chance do much the same in the spring.

To my mind true test of a veg grower is to love the smell of 6x. I was in the queue to pay for a bag of the stuff that I had on my shoulder a while back and some Mrs. Bucket type asked what the awful smell was. The guy behind the counter told her and she looked at me and said, "I'm glad you aren't my neighbour." To which I replied, "Not as glad as I am love.."

This is a cracker of a book for beginners to veg growing, rather than those who want self sufficiency and smallholding, which is clearly inappropriate for your bit of ground.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Vegetabl.../dp/0903505207

[sandbender]

You might find a few book ideas here...

The illustrated Library of Self Sufficiency

[British Red]

Baggy,

I've been known to grow the odd bit of veg.....

You aren't going to start a small holding on 150 sq foot or so...nor are you going to grow tender crops. However, if its good soil, its not too late for this year to get some crops in. I would suggest some short cycle veg and root crops. There is plenty of time to grow some nice carrots, some salad veg (lettuce, radish, spring onion). If you buy some brussels and broccoli as seedlings, they can do well until winter. Then is September or so, hoik out the salad veg and replace with garlic, over wintering onions and the like.

What do you need to know?

Red

[Baggy]

You might find a few book ideas here...

The illustrated Library of Self Sufficiency

Nice, thank you

[Baggy]

Hiya

Baggy,

I've been known to grow the odd bit of veg.....

You aren't going to start a small holding on 150 sq foot or so...nor are you going to grow tender crops. However, if its good soil, its not too late for this year to get some crops in. I would suggest some short cycle veg and root crops. There is plenty of time to grow some nice carrots, some salad veg (lettuce, radish, spring onion). If you buy some brussels and broccoli as seedlings, they can do well until winter. Then is September or so, hoik out the salad veg and replace with garlic, over wintering onions and the like.

What do you need to know?

All very useful thank you.

The ground is quite stoney, hard to dig but what ever we plant in the garden seems to grow, we planted an old xmas tree which has gone from 5ft to 18ft. My wife is always complaining the that the shrubs grow like mad.

I have had some books recommended including
The Vegetable & Herb Expert: The world's best-selling book on vegetables & herbs

What do you need to know?

Probably all the obvious stuff, like how deep do I need to dig? this is a bit of an issue as my ticker means that I work slowly these days :-(

What manure, would horse poo do? How much would I need for my 150 sq foot or so,
How much area do I need for a small setup to get started, all 150 sq foot. How deep do I plant.

[santaman2000]

...To my mind true test of a veg grower is to love the smell of 6x. I was in the queue to pay for a bag of the stuff that I had on my shoulder a while back and some Mrs. Bucket type asked what the awful smell was. The guy behind the counter told her and she looked at me and said, "I'm glad you aren't my neighbour." To which I replied, "Not as glad as I am love.."...

Next time just reminder of her manners; "If you're going to speak ill of farmers, don't talk with your mouth full."

[British Red]

Best thing to do right now is to get the soil ready. Stony soil is far from ideal - best to get rid of the stones if possible. Easiest way is to dig down about two spits ( a spit is a spade depth) and pass all the soil through a metal screen (bit of stiff mesh on a frame). Often a frame is built using a barrow underneath - shovel soil onto the barrow and let the soil fall through the mesh and the stones get caught on the gravel.

If thats too much work, do what my buddy did, hire a mini digger and a soil screener from HSS - you'd your bed done in a weekend that way. Then stick a load of rotted manure on and dig it in. For 150 square feet you would want to add at least 12 big barrows full - think a 6" layer of manure dug in.

There is no reason again why that has to be hard work - a rotovator can be hired or a small electric one bought

I showed how I made my veg plot on page 6 of this thread

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/sho...t=43729&page=6

If you read on Duncan (FGYT) shows his soil screening method

Red

[santaman2000]

...What manure, would horse poo do? How much would I need for my 150 sq foot or so,
How much area do I need for a small setup to get started, all 150 sq foot. How deep do I plant.

If you were over here I would reccomend you take a soil sample and have it analyzed by the county agent and ask their advise. I'm not sure where you'd take it over there but I'm sure the process exists there as well. Perhaps someone on here can advise where to get the sample kit and where to take it? The kits come with instructions on how to get an average sample of the entire plot (2 samples actually, one from a depth of about 6" for the topsoil and another from a depth of 8"-12" for the subsoil)the process exists there as well. Perhaps someone on here can advise where to get the sample kit and where to take it?

[TurboGirl]

You can get soil testing kits cheaply at garden centres or get back to your inner child with some litmus paper Theres a coupla of different schools of thought you might want to consider too- permaculture (which is a very natural, symbiotic form of gardening based on natural growth patterns) and my personal favorite, no- dig

Personally I love medicinal and perennial food plants so grow a lot of useful and tasty 'weeds', coupled with apple and pear trees, loganberries, strawberries, redcurrants and gooseberries (all perennial so they come up year in, year out) and perennial herbs like oregano, rosemary, sage, lemon balm, loveage and mint. I like the 'eat your prunings' and ''trim back what you don't want' approach rather than the science of setting seeds and nurturing plants so have a small pond which attracts slug eating newts and frogs, damsel flies, birds etc. What you can grow well depends very much on your soil in your garden itself and the underlting conditions eg clay/ sand/ rock.... but there is a good indigineous plant database/ postcode finder ( I think its on the Royal Horticultural Club website). I lie, its here.

PS Any manure has to be at least a year old (some animals longer than others), otherwise it can 'burn' the roots :S

You can put plants in now if they're kept moist and planted with a bit of shade ie an overcast forecast- if you attend meets in your area, the lads/ lasses will probably give you some great ideas and possibly some stuff to grow on- and don't forget to search out your local gardening club, they can be a right wealth of information too

[udamiano]

I would have a word with members of a local allotments association, they will probably give you loads of tips, and would know what the local soil conditions are like

sent from under a tarp, in front of the fire :-) using that tapatalk thingy..

[xylaria]

Dont get dis-heartened when some things go wrong. The slugs ate all my squash seedlings, and had a good go my sons runner beans. The hedgehog drowned its self in the well dispite a ladder. The apple tree that was really productive last year has just dropped all the fertilized flowers. But the garden is now growing enough saled greens to not need buy any for a few months, which will save me a packet. I have plenty of spuds, and the restarted beans are now thriving. I too have a lot of trees, you wil need put quite a bit of fertilzer down to get much out of the soil.

Remember a lot weeds are edible.

[Baggy]

Thanks all, some really useful info.

I will spend this year preparing and growing some things in containers.

I had not thought of gardening clubs, I will look for a local club

[rik_uk3]

I've got a couple of good gardening books for beginners, PDF format so, PM me and I'll send them.

http://www.squarefootgardening.co.uk/ has some good ideas

[Laurentius]

I have taken over an allotment somewhat late in the season for any organized planting, a lot of it is still to be cleared and I am growing "green manure" as a stopgap to keep the weeds down and condition the soil. You sow it and when it grows up hoe it in.

I am not a scientific gardener nor ever was, my policy is to put a lot of everything in (so long as you know what it is and where it is and, be prepared to lose a lot of it, then concentrate on what comes up best, because that is going to be what the soil is good for.

My back won't take any heavy digging, and my brother has gone on strike so I think I will adopt the minimum cultivation technique, and simply break up the surface of the soil with a swan necked hoe. Seems to be doing alright so far, in that what has been planted in the least cultivated parts is doing better than what is in the properly prepared bed, my brother dug for me. No wonder he is disgusted with me. I could hire a rotovator, but somehow that just does not appeal to me, it seems like cheating, never mind it would just rip randomly through what is there including the plastic that lies beneath the grass, there having grown up an entire level of turf on top of what was previously put down to control weeds.

I have my first crop already of willow withies, from clearing what had got out of hand when the allotment was abandoned.

That which I can't cultivate is laying underneath tarpaulin for now, which I am gradually clearing back. The name of the game is patience and not to expect much in the first year. My plot is about 80 feet by 27.

[PDA1]

i would be very surprised if your local public library didn't have a plethora of books for all levels of knowledge. dewey classification 635

Try sites like this: http://www.getinthegarden.com/vegetable-gardening-101/

[santaman2000]

Thanks all, some really useful info.

I will spend this year preparing and growing some things in containers.

I had not thought of gardening clubs, I will look for a local club

You can do very well with containers. I've been growing my tomatoes exclusively in containers for a few years now. Just set the started plants in large container with potting soil (you can buy it or mix your own) and watch them grow. I water them about every other day. Oh yes, speaking of tomatoes there are two types ("types" should not be confused with the myriad "varietiets")
1. Determinate: which produces a large number of tomatoes at once which all ripen at about the same time, and
2. Indeterminate: which produces fewer tomatoes at a time but continues producing throughout the season

[HillBill]

1. Determinate: which produces a large number of tomatoes at once which all ripen at about the same time, and
2. Indeterminate: which produces fewer tomatoes at a time but continues producing throughout the season

Determinate are bush type tomato's, called determinate i believe as they stop their growth at a certain height. These types dont require side shoots removing.
Indeterminate or "cordon" are ones which keep growing upwards throughout their life, these need side shoots removing to keep the growth on single stem and need the growing tips pinching out once 4 trusses have set.

[santaman2000]

Determinate are bush type tomato's, called determinate i believe as they stop their growth at a certain height. These types dont require side shoots removing.
Indeterminate or "cordon" are ones which keep growing upwards throughout their life, these need side shoots removing to keep the growth on single stem and need the growing tips pinching out once 4 trusses have set.

They're both bush type here (might be a difference in local language; I got my info from the local gardening books) They both need to be supported (I stake mine and tie the main stems to the stakes; they can also be supported by an upside down wire fence funnel)

There is also a gowing popularity for "upside down" tomatoes. They're grown by planting in a hanging pot so that the stems shoot through holes in the pot and hang down unsupported. The pots are hung so that the fruit is about eye level and easy to pick when ripe.

None of the tomatoes we grow over her require any shoots removed; or any real maintenence other than watering when grown in containers (weeding if grown in ground)

I don't preserve my excess so I always plant indeterminate so as to have a steady crop throughout the season. All I ever do is plant, water, and pick them when ripe.

[Urban X]

I took this from my seed suppliers information page, seems to me to be a mixture of the two?

What's the difference between "indeterminate" and "determinate" tomatoes?

Determinate tomatoes, or "bush" tomatoes, are varieties that grow to a compact height (generally 3 - 4'). Determinates stop growing when fruit sets on the top bud. All the tomatoes from the plant ripen at approximately the same time (usually over period of 1- 2 weeks). They require a limited amount of staking for support and are perfectly suited for container planting.

Indeterminate tomatoes will grow and produce fruit until killed by frost. They can reach heights of up to 12 feet although 6 feet is normal. Indeterminates will bloom, set new fruit and ripen fruit all at the same time throughout the season. They require substantial staking for support and benefit from being constrained to a central growing stem.

Si

[santaman2000]

It would appear so. I just read a similar defintion on a website. TBH though I've never seen ANY tomatoes over 3-4 feet tall. I may have to try something a bit diferent next Spring to experiment.

[Urban X]

TBH I never really take any notice of what type they are, I grow both determinate and indeterminate and apart from pinching out the side shoots (45 deg shoots between truss and main stem) I let em get on with it, if they get too tall (over 6ft) I'll pinch the top out to stop them.

Currently growing:

(I)San Marzano --> Pasta sauces/passata
(D)Principe Borghese --> Sun drying
(D)Rio Grande --> Passata
(D)Sub Arctic Plenty (Heirloom) --> Good all round salad/eating tomato
(I)Gardeners' Delight --> Large cherry, good salad/eater


Si

[xylaria]

I have never had outdoor toms work. If the rain hits them they get blight, everytime. The only thing I found that works outside is a plastic teepee around them that keeps the rain off the plant and then water the roots.

[Urban X]

xylaria have you tried the F1 varieties? Thompson & Morgan have a few blight resitant strains as do most other sellers I suspect.

Ferline, Fantasio, Legend, all worth a go, there's a list HERE of some more varieties.

I don't suffer from blight here, (touch wood), but my GH is pretty small so I have to grow the eating varieties outdoors as I need the space I have for my plum varieties.


Si

[HillBill]

Not supposed to remove anything from determinate (bush) tomatoes.

This year we are growing.
Ailsa Craig
Gardeners delight
san marzano 3
Green Grape
Tigrella
Sweet olive
Romada
totem
outdoor girl
marmande
golden sunrise
alicante
white cherry tomatoes ( imported the seeds)
100's & 1000's (hanging basket, best producer i've ever seen)
tumbling tiger ( hanging basket)
black cherry

Mostly just one plant of each, apart from the san marzano, GD and 100's & 1000's

I also have seeds for a Tomato "tree"

TBH I never really take any notice of what type they are, I grow both determinate and indeterminate and apart from pinching out the side shoots (45 deg shoots between truss and main stem) I let em get on with it, if they get too tall (over 6ft) I'll pinch the top out to stop them.

Currently growing:

(I)San Marzano --> Pasta sauces/passata
(D)Principe Borghese --> Sun drying
(D)Rio Grande --> Passata
(D)Sub Arctic Plenty (Heirloom) --> Good all round salad/eating tomato
(I)Gardeners' Delight --> Large cherry, good salad/eater


Si

[HillBill]

I have never had outdoor toms work. If the rain hits them they get blight, everytime. The only thing I found that works outside is a plastic teepee around them that keeps the rain off the plant and then water the roots.

100's and 1000's are outdoor toms for hanging baskets, i got about 400 tomatoes off one plant last year. Also "outdoor girl" do well out side, and if the amount of flowers on a truss is anything to go by then its going to produce plenty.

[British Red]

I think blight depends a lot on location - if you are round areas where there is lots of toms and spuds grown, it tends to be harder as the disease has lots of places to remain. Similiarly given its airborne, if you are in a wind shadow you may be okay - in Lincolnshire - forget it!

[santaman2000]

Yeah, blight's a big problem in Florida too but I never worried about it at all in Mississippi. Location's a definite issue.

[British Red]

TBH though I've never seen ANY tomatoes over 3-4 feet tall.

Here you go then


Greenhouse 18/07/11 by British Red, on Flickr

[santaman2000]

LOL. Thanks Red. But TBH without anything in there for perspective those only look 3 or 4 feet tall. I know they are though, else you wouldn't have posted them.