"I live without cash – and I manage just fine "

[British Red]

Possibly so.

My take is a simple one. If we believe in things like universal healthcare then it has to be paid for. I expect to pay in more than my "fair share" for those incapable of working - the chronically sick, the severely disabled etc. I even expect to pay in for those unable to find work but trying to.

As for those who are fit and well, and perfectly capable of working but both choose not to, but avail themselves of services that those of us who work hard pay for, well, as I said they are, by a dictionary definition, parasites.

Is our system perfect, heck no. But seeking to profit from services paid for by others and thereby diminishing the funds available to take care of those in genuine need is morally repugnant to me. Many people are denied life improving or life saving treatments due to lack of available funds. To further diminsh those funds because "money is not important"...is disgusting

Anyway...we risk straying into politics...so I will refrain from further contribution

Red

[Harvestman]

Like I said, I agree with you.

[xylaria]

Woofing you work for your bed and food, tipically your are contributing to making food [normally organic] cheaper for society. It isn't sponging by anyway. The combined the tax contribution of everyone that is presently woofing doing minium wage job instead I reckon wouldn't cover the vodafone tax dodge, the RBS bailout, or the bradford and bingly sure-up, so i wont pass judgement.

However because of the 850billion quid bit of trouble we are now in, I would prefer to respectfully learn off anyone that can genunuely live without money, because I feel we may rapidly end up in situtaion where the wheelbarrow means more than the cash you can carry in it.

[Woadhart]

I don't like the argument red is making because it reduces things down to a point where money becomes the defining moral factor. Almost to the point where money becomes a more important foundation of morality rather than any notion of goodness. I don't mean to have a dig at red but I see all too often these days that the morality of business, i.e. money and profit, is spilling over into social and political spheres where it has no place as a value judgement imo.

If we believe in universal healthcare as a good in itself then it is irrelevant whether a person has paid tax or not.

I don't know this guy, maybe he is a selfish freeloader but on the other hand maybe if we asked he would be entirely happy to help any of us out for free.

[Toddy]

I don't think BR was talking about profit tbh, just simple economics.

I think that all too often it is forgotten that our free healthcare still needs to be funded.
Government pays for it, but it does so through our taxes.
If no one pays taxes then there is no money to pay for free healthcare.

We don't talk about that openly enough. We don't teach our children that simple little bit of social engineering, clearly enough. Every one who can pay a little funds the NHS that we all can use.

I thank every single one of you who has paid, does pay and will continue to pay, National Insurance Long term members know exactly why it's so close to my heart, and I'm not having a dig at the fellow in the OP, but our society no longer functions on the barter network beyond simple interactions between family and friends and the, 'someone, someone I know, knows'.
A cash based society like ours (after all nurses have to pay their bills too) still only succeeds because of input from those able to do so, to fund social care.

It's a strange twist; the "I'm all right Jack!", isn't a rampant capitalist but a conviction socialist in this case.
Nowt so queer as folk.

M

[Andy BB]

There's no such thing as a free lunch - a truism in pretty much all economic scenarios. Too much talk about "rights" and not enough about responsibilities. Whether its free medcal support, park rangers, police, roads, infrastructure, military - it all has to be paid for by us at the end of the day. Even the dread bankers with their million-pound bonuses pay 50+% of that back in higher-rate tax, and their spend on other stuff from whats left after taxes provides jobs for those making the goods or providing the services.

Sure, you can play the system if you're "clever" enough. But by doing so, there is less left in the pot for those who really need the services but are genuinely unable to provide for themselves. Even worse, the measures taken to stop rampant abuse of the welfare system inevitably catch some who really need it, so a double whammy on the genuinely needy.

[Randall]

See the point about universal healthcare and the fact that it has to be funded. But with regards to the future there's a real predicament, because much of the funding for our public services would not be there if we weren't such voracious consumers. That's how we're supporting the huge budgets of the health service, the military, etc - by buying things, and buying things that in most cases aren't necessary, and worse - destructive to the planet.

That's how you get your brain tumor taken out for free, because Mr. Jones bought a new car. Isn't there something really wrong an unnatural about that?

..So it's not a good way to have it and not a sustainable way. We'll have to evolve a bit and make some changes - the economy must be tied in with the health of the planet and the size of it's resources, and ultimately that's going to result in a much reduced budget.

That's the best possible outcome. All the others end in tears.

[hermitical]

I've got to admit I used to houseshare and work with this guy and his heart is in the right place. When this was written he was working p/t but talking food instead of cash, the caravan came from freecycle and the laptop was years old.

He has recently spent time in Greece helping set up a self reliant community and afaik is working on setting up something similar here.

As for the walk to India, there is more to the story. An (irresponsible in my opinion) mother foisted her daughter on him and at the same time someone else attached themselves. If he had remained by himself I think he would have found some way to manage and progress but because he was too kind/weak to say no to these people he was responsible for looking after them as well and it all went pear-shaped. A bit of forethought and a few french lessons would have helped as well

All in all, I don't think he is a parasite, he is very idealistic and wants to try and live a good life. He may be misguided and I certainly don't agree with everything he says but he isn't content to live complicitly in what he feels is a failing system.

[redneck]

I've got to admit I used to houseshare and work with this guy and his heart is in the right place. When this was written he was working p/t but talking food instead of cash, the caravan came from freecycle and the laptop was years old.

He has recently spent time in Greece helping set up a self reliant community and afaik is working on setting up something similar here.

As for the walk to India, there is more to the story. An (irresponsible in my opinion) mother foisted her daughter on him and at the same time someone else attached themselves. If he had remained by himself I think he would have found some way to manage and progress but because he was too kind/weak to say no to these people he was responsible for looking after them as well and it all went pear-shaped. A bit of forethought and a few french lessons would have helped as well

All in all, I don't think he is a parasite, he is very idealistic and wants to try and live a good life. He may be misguided and I certainly don't agree with everything he says but he isn't content to live complicitly in what he feels is a failing system.

Nicely put, it's always beneficial to listen to both sides before passing judgement.

[Manacles]

I've got to admit I used to houseshare and work with this guy and his heart is in the right place. When this was written he was working p/t but talking food instead of cash, the caravan came from freecycle and the laptop was years old.

He has recently spent time in Greece helping set up a self reliant community and afaik is working on setting up something similar here.

As for the walk to India, there is more to the story. An (irresponsible in my opinion) mother foisted her daughter on him and at the same time someone else attached themselves. If he had remained by himself I think he would have found some way to manage and progress but because he was too kind/weak to say no to these people he was responsible for looking after them as well and it all went pear-shaped. A bit of forethought and a few french lessons would have helped as well

All in all, I don't think he is a parasite, he is very idealistic and wants to try and live a good life. He may be misguided and I certainly don't agree with everything he says but he isn't content to live complicitly in what he feels is a failing system.

Agree MB is a friend of a friend and it's well worth reading the book he wrote (from which he took no personal profit but tax WAS paid) before forming an opinion based on the very little the media says about him. He is by all accounts a good guy and his point is in large part political and is being made about the excesses of consumerism. I would also like to point out that a substantial proportion of the "freegan" food recovered went to putting on meals for those that are less well off.

[hermitical]

actually I've just realised that by the same terms applied by some on here I am a parasitical non tax payer...

What always amazes and infuriates me is how quick people are to judge those at the bottom of the food chain without aiming any of their vitriol at those at the top

[treadlightly]

I pay tax and NI and have done all my adult life but I don't mind if this guy wants to opt out of that system. He should have the freedom to dissent.

[Randall]

actually I've just realised that by the same terms applied by some on here I am a parasitical non tax payer...

What always amazes and infuriates me is how quick people are to judge those at the bottom of the food chain without aiming any of their vitriol at those at the top

+1

It's all down to how much money we've put into the kitty, and if it's not much, then we're very bad people indeed.

[andybysea]

There's quite a few Parasites as some call them, from the other end of the spectrum,as well as far as im concered.

[Toddy]

No it's not.
It's about willingness to contribute responsibly to society as a whole.

VAT is vat regardless of who pays it, and NI is NI regardless of how much you pay.

Toddy

[Tengu]

Yes, Im planning on moving to a Tax haven...

[Andy BB]

This is the bit that got me from one of the previous posts. "but he isn't content to live complicitly in what he feels is a failing system."

Yet - to take just one example - he was quite happy to travel on roads and trains - and boats to get to France - all provided at least in part by public taxation. If ill he would have taken advantage of the NHS or European equivalents, again all paid by someone else. He will no doubt claim his old-age state pension when the time comes, despite not contributing to it. He will be protected by public policing throughout his life. His children - if any - will be educated by the state system (when they're not on strike, that is )

All this talk about a simpler, cheaper society is fairyland wishful fantasy. With an increasing population one needs commerce to provide jobs for the population - not much demand for thatchers and plough-wrights in modern day society. 60+million in the UK can't live off the land any more.......................

[British Red]

I've got to admit I used to houseshare and work with this guy and his heart is in the right place. When this was written he was working p/t but talking food instead of cash

Thats excellent. I assume that both he and his employer declared his payment on tax returns? Payment in kind is of course an income and the type of arrangement you describe is not tax free - as you can verify here

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/hs207.pdf

It is though kind of you to verify on a public forum that he was recieving an income and was in gainful employment at this time.

Red

[John Fenna]

I avoid paying Income tax by having low paid jobs - I do however declare every penny I earn and use my income to buy stuff and thereby pay indirect taxes (VAT Whiskey duty etc) I still pay NI (volontary contributions).
As I spend so little I figure that I cover what I take out of the system (though the way pension goalposts are being moved I doubt I will live long enough to claim!) but still do not pay towards the outright greed of some who milk the system (like MPs claiming for cleaning their moats etc).
I like to think there is a happy medium and that is what I am aiming to hit - live in a way that minimises your call on central funds and contribute enough to help/meet/exceed those demands without ripping anyone off or ripping anyone else off.
It seems crazy to me that people living on handouts can afford more luxuries than I can though!
I would term this "philosophy" rather than "political" but I do realise that I could be sailing close to the wind so I will leave it there!

[ex member pyrophil]

Not read the link, surprized how many people are agaist that way of life. Whould of thought a load of bushcrafters would love to live how they did years ago. this tax moaning, how many people on here who make and sell stuff pay tax on it, none. I pay tax but would like to live how people use to, cant see it happening unless a plauge comes along and wipes out 90% of the population. maybe if we are lucky one will.

[Andy BB]

An interesting point, pyro! How many bushcrafters would REALLY like to live how they did years ago? (by that I'm postulating before "civilisation" kicked in, with things like effective medicine, transportation systems, police etc..)

At a complete guess, I'd bet that 80% of us wouldn't actually be alive now to debate this, having fallen prey to the grim reaper in childbirth, high child mortality, starvation, murder, infectious illnesses or complications from broken bones, TB, peritonitis etc etc etc. Even things like poor vision would spell the end, rather than just being the minor inconvenience it is today thanks to the high-street opticians!

[ex member pyrophil]

I would be ok lol, my mum had me at home. never been ill. no broken bones ect.

[Toddy]

...............yeah, Mum had you at home, with clean running water, decent sewerage, midwives coming in to check up (that's the law incidentally) health visitors, and even if Mum didn't have 'you' vaccinated, the majority of society is, and thus you are unlikely to have suffered from the childhood diseases that, to this day, mean that the majority of children born in this world do not see their fifth birthdays
Diptheria, typhoid, cholera, smallpox, scarlet fever, polio.........and that's before we even come to the bit about decent nutrition, the milk tokens and the family allowances, that society provides.

cheers,
Toddy

[hermitical]

Thats excellent. I assume that both he and his employer declared his payment on tax returns? Payment in kind is of course an income and the type of arrangement you describe is not tax free - as you can verify here

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/hs207.pdf

It is though kind of you to verify on a public forum that he was recieving an income and was in gainful employment at this time.

Red

I can't tell you whether or not he declared it but where he was working (a food co-operative) hardly had the sort of wages where 2 or 3 days a week would take you over the tax threshold.

[hermitical]

I avoid paying Income tax by having low paid jobs - I do however declare every penny I earn and use my income to buy stuff and thereby pay indirect taxes (VAT Whiskey duty etc) I still pay NI (volontary contributions).

much the same as me, though mine is due to poor health rather than choice

[sandbender]

"...and his heart is in the right place..."

I do not doubt that his heart is in the right place.

"...As for the walk to India, there is more to the story. An (irresponsible in my opinion) mother foisted her daughter on him and at the same time someone else attached themselves. If he had remained by himself I think he would have found some way to manage and progress but because he was too kind/weak to say no to these people he was responsible for looking after them as well and it all went pear-shaped. A bit of forethought and a few french lessons would have helped as well..."

That doesn't wash. No mention of this was made when having courted the worlds media about his walk from Bristol to India, he gave up at Calais!

He gave up at Calais! Not Vienna, not Istanbul, not Tehran but Calais. If these hangers on were the cause of his failure, the cause which forced him to return to the UK there was nothing to stop him getting them back where they needed to be and then hitching back to France to continue his journey. No, at the time he announced that he planned to walk around the UK instead.

The next we heard from him was when this article about living without money surfaced a few years back, he once said that "I want my life to be a message", what kind of message is he sending? Have big ideas and plans, tell everyone and then cop out when things get a bit tricky?

I can live with some people not paying taxes, I don't doubt that the world is a better place because the odd poet, musician, artist, writer or philosopher trundles through their life relying on the rest of society to carry them. They contribute to society in a different way. However such people are few and far between and this guy isn't one of them.

"...He has recently spent time in Greece helping set up a self reliant community..."

Can you name the community? How self reliant are they, can they defend themselves against invading armies? can they stop powerful corporate interests stealing their water supply or land? Do they have an onsite trauma team to deal with serious injuries? Just how self reliant are they?

[Manacles]

It is, of course, not possible to wholly opt out of society. For example defence is provided by the state, and as long as one resides in that state then defense is provided for all, no opting out there. Other people have made points about healthcare etc. It is however perfectly possible to have minimal involvement in state matters as a matter of choice, and why shouldn't one? If, as a bushcrafter, one was to "go feral" for a while then presumably one is not contributing to society? The simple fact is that we are all products of society int hat we are educated and brought up within society. But as an adult? Why not drop out? Just because a particular system raised us does not make us blind to its faults. How many of us are out of work due to the recession? Quite a few I would warrant. Those guys wouldall have paid taxes whent hey were working and spongers they most certainly are not. It's also worth noting that everyitime any of us purchase an item that is subject to VAT we contribute to the system, whether we like it or not.

I would say to Mark Boyle's detractors, read his book (get it from the library if you like, then you don't pay tax on it - if you buy it he doesn't get any money anyway) and you will see he makes all the above points in abundance. The guy is a political animal with a political point, you might not like it, but at least you can choose from an informed viewpoint.

And lastly and most importantly let's not sink to implying that those on benefits or not able to "pay into" society are scroungers, that really is most uncalled for....

[hermitical]

I don't know the community in Greece sandbender, but it's good to see someone is being unbending in their definition of the term self-reliant. The Good Life would have been pretty different with Tom and Barbara splitting their time between the watchtower, the field hospital and the chicken coop

it's quite clear you and others have a huge problem with Mark even though it appears you don't wish to know anything but the journalistic reports. I presume you haven't read his book or chatted to him yet you still see fit to pronounce that society is carrying him.

This is why I hate talking about him. Though we probably share some beliefs I really don't agree with everything he says or does or his way of 'doing first thinking later', but I hate both the kneejerk reactionary comments and the willingness to shout down someone who is trying in some way, however naive it may be sometimes, to get people to think about what they do, what they consume etc.

[sandbender]

"...but it's good to see someone is being unbending in their definition of the term self-reliant..."

I do not think I'm being 'unbending' I would encourage everyone to be as self reliant as they can, even if that gets no further than some herbs in a window box.

"...The Good Life would have been pretty different with Tom and Barbara splitting their time between the watchtower, the field hospital and the chicken coop..."

Much less enjoyable true, although Felicity Kendal in fatigues? That would work.

"...it's quite clear you and others have a huge problem with Mark even though it appears you don't wish to know anything but the journalistic reports..."

Reporting his own words which I have yet to see him deny.

"...I presume you haven't read his book or chatted to him yet you still see fit to pronounce that society is carrying him..."

I have not, I don't care whether society is carrying him or not, I simply don't think he is someone who I want to listen to. It may be that he truly believes the things he writes about but he comes across as someone who was looking for a cause that he could be the defacto spokesperson for.

I really cannot get past the whole giving up at Calais thing, I have met several people who have travelled quite considerable distances on foot or overland, they received no press attention, so how was it that the Mark Boyle 'walking to India' story was carried by so many newspapers and broadcasters? Did he sit down and telephone them all, did he have a team which did for him? Was he related to or involved with someone in the press industry?

Whatever, he failed in that having flown his flag very high indeed, why would I listen to anything else he has to say?

I'm sure he is a lovely bloke though.

[hermitical]

I'll grant you the walk was a fiasco (having a 15yr old girl foisted upon him was the turning point) but there was no media team behind him, I think it is more the case that Bristol has a big network of alternative types and some of those cross into the media (BBC here etc) so it snowballed quite quickly.

One good thing about it was the lovely Josie D'Arby came to the house to interview Mark for which I will be forever thankful - oh and our dog Merlot butted in on the interview as well.