a question regarding off meat

[spiritwalker]

Not sure if this is the right section its grub related but not lovely....

So working on the principle of boiling water makes it free of bugs for consumption, if for example you were in a survival situation and came across a rotten corpse (roadkill, half eaten prey etc) in theory if you boiled it (for a specific length of time) would it become edible?

I kind of think it does (as curries where invented to hide rancid meat) but basically is there anything else harmful to you other than bugs by practicing this i am guessing if it renders it safe the only reason it isnt done often is due to the flavour ?

anyone got any facts on this could you stew up maggot ridden meat and render it edible in the sense you would not get ill from eating it?

[santaman2000]

Might be safer to eat the maggots.

[The Ratcatcher]

The Rhodesian Army supplied troops on survival courses with a well rotted monkey and curry powder for at least one meal, and apparently didn't loose anybody.

It's worth remembering that game is traditionally hung for a couple of weeks to allow the decomposition process to tenderise the meat. Some people actually like pheasant that has been hung for as long as four weeks. (I prefer my wild food freshly killed.)

Alan

[Chiseller]

It is old practice to let hung hares become maggot ridden. Maggots will only eat off (rotton) meat. A good chef new when to brush the maggots off and prepare the meat.
I wouldn't eat maggot riddled meat from roadkill myself as there is more risk of cross contaminantion from the puddings and if the maggots are in the meat as opposed to on the meat , then definate no.

Sent from my HTC Explorer using Tapatalk

[spandit]

I'm not sure how nutritious it would be after boiling for that long. It would certainly kill off most of the bugs (& after all, game meat is hung which is essentially rotten). From what I've read online, it's probably safe but you might get "2-bucket disease" (one for each end). Try it and report back!

[spiritwalker]

hmm been googling about and some places suggest that although the bacteria are killed the toxins they can produce are not one such one that has sprung up is cadaverine so it may not be so straight forward as i thought

[Harvestman]

Interesting question. Meat is usually only 'off' in the sense that bacteria start growing on it, which changes the flavour, texture and smell. If you boil it long enough, you should kill off all of the bacteria, so the meat should be edible, even if the flavour is poor and the nutritional value reduced.

However, the other problem with bacterial growth is the chemicals that they excrete as waste products of their own metabolism. These may be toxic to humans and may not be affected at all by boiling, so even after boiling the meat may be unsafe to eat. Depends on the bacteria and the toxins concerned. The longer you boil, the greater the change of rendering it safe, but the poorer the value of what you end up with.

On the whole, I'd say the advice to eat the maggots would be the better option (seriously), although it would depend on how 'far gone' the meat was. Curries traditionally use meat that is starting to go off, but hasn't degraded too much, so any bacterial toxins would be at low levels.

If you are desperate, you may as well try it, but to be honest a rat pack is probably a better option

[lannyman8]

also you have to consider why it was dead in the first place, maybe not just because it was run over, maybe because it was slower due to disease, i know badgers have TB, which is why they are culled in areas from time to time....

in principle, yes if i had to i would eat it, if your in that much need of rotten meat a bad belly wont worry you too much....

[Toddy]

There are times I'm incredibly glad I'm vegetarian

I understood that it's not so much the meat decaying that's the issue but the toxins that the decay vectors produce, 'and' whether or not the decay vectors are influenced by disease, and the personal hygiene involved in both the butchery and the cooking.
i.e. if you got your hands full of rotten stuff, cooked your dinner, then used your hands to eat the dinner without cleaning them thoroughly, in effect you're re-contaminating the meat.......that you've just cooked to kill of the contaminants, iimmc.

I think it would have to come down to how desperate are you to eat the rotten meat vs how would you cope should you end up with a bad dose of galloping diarrhoea.

cheers,
Toddy

[British Red]

Meat has a problem. Botulinum. Botulinum is not killed off by boiling - which cannot reach a temperature of above 100C in an open vessel. Its the reason that I pressure can meat to store it at ambient temperature - kill the botulism micro organism and prevent re-infection - pressure canning uses heated steam which attains a temperature higher than boiling.

So definitively, boiling will not always render meat safe.

Red

[Harvestman]

Botulinus was exactly what i had in mind in my previous post, but I deleted that bit out to keep the post clear. Thanks British Red

[Toddy]

How does drying and smoking affect rotten meat ? Does that make it safe to eat ?

I'm curious now, more just for information tbh.

cheers,
M

[British Red]

There are many ways and types of inhibiting bacterial action. Bacteria generally require moisture, warmth and a hospitable environment.

Drying meat will inhibit bacterial degredation. Think the desicated corpeses found in deserts.

Lowering the temperature sufficiently ihibits it too. Oetzi the ice man.

Certain chemicals are inimical to bacteria - peat preserved corpses (also due to the lack of air). One of the commonest used on foodstuffs is salt but lye has been used on fish and alcohol has been used too (think Nelsons corpse)

Smoking alone has little preservative benefit (although a smoke coated meat has a slightly ant microbial coating). Most commercially smoked meats are salted first. Cool smoking can act as a drying process of course.

Heat also works (canning) as does pickling (the acid is the preservative - think pickled herring)

Bear in mind though that preserving meat is best done from fresh. As mentioned previously, certain bacteria produce chemical toxins that are not affected by preservative techniques.

I really must write "the science of food preservation" at some point. There are few accesible books for the home user that cover all the techniques and describe the adequately.

Red

[Shewie]

Would freezing first help at all?

[British Red]

Freezing generally puts bacteria into suspended animation. It prevents them reproducing or spoiling meat but does not kill them.

Interestingly though, it is a useful storage technique as it kills the larvae of many insects found in food (e.g. rice or flour). All flour contains weevils. Freezing it for 72 hours kills the larvae.

[Toddy]

A book such as that would be an interesting read BR

I routinely do a freeze/thaw repeat freeze/thaw on cornmeal after once opening the sealed box and finding it moving with wee black beasties Pease brose too, though those were tiny wee creamy coloured weevils. I'm pretty sure they didn't get infested in my house, especially in fresh washed air tight boxes, I reckon they came in with the eggs in the meal

It's not posh food, but potted hough was traditionally sealed with a layer of fat over the boiled, shredded, peppered and jellied meat. I know that lasts safely for a very long time.

cheers,
M

[Bodge]

I imagine that the rotton meat would be best used as bait. BG would probably eat it though and if you were hungry enough who knows?

[Zingmo]

I imagine that the rotton meat would be best used as bait. BG would probably eat it though and if you were hungry enough who knows?

Are you suggesting we lure BG into a trap using the roadkill and then eat him?

Z

[Bushwhacker]

I imagine that the rotton meat would be best used as bait. BG would probably eat it though and if you were hungry enough who knows?

Beat me to it. That was my very first thought when I read the OP.

[Zingmo]

Think the desicated corpeses found in deserts.... Oetzi the ice man.... peat preserved corpses.... think Nelsons corpse

I am starting to wonder if the flesh eating zombies of the apocalypse are already among us! Now where's that kukhri?...

Z

[cave_dweller]

There are times I'm incredibly glad I'm vegetarian

I understood that it's not so much the meat decaying that's the issue but the toxins that the decay vectors produce, 'and' whether or not the decay vectors are influenced by disease, and the personal hygiene involved in both the butchery and the cooking.

That's exactly my understanding. Toxins are produced while the bacteria reproduce on the meat. Boiling doesn't 'kill' the toxins, since they were never alive to begin with, so even if you boil it you'll potentially end up with dangerous meat.

Personally if it doesn't smell right, I'd avoid it! Dehydration resulting from food poisoning is likely to present a more immediate danger than hunger if survivial is at issue.

[Hoodoo]

Meat has a problem. Botulinum. Botulinum is not killed off by boiling - which cannot reach a temperature of above 100C in an open vessel. Its the reason that I pressure can meat to store it at ambient temperature - kill the botulism micro organism and prevent re-infection - pressure canning uses heated steam which attains a temperature higher than boiling.

So definitively, boiling will not always render meat safe.

Red

Have to disagree on this. You use a pressure canner to kill the spores. The toxin itself is easily denatured by boiling. We consume the spores all the time. They are ubiquitous in the soil and you breathe them in. But if they end up in a can, they hatch out, reproduce, and then produce the toxin which is deadly if not denatured. If you eat the spores, the high acidity in the stomach is generally protective and they pass through your digestive tract without a problem although newborns with low acidity levels MAY be negatively affected. SOMETIMES the spores may find a pocket in the gut where they can survive and grow but this is not common.

Wiki botulism.

[British Red]

I am starting to wonder if the flesh eating zombies of the apocalypse are already among us! Now where's that kukhri?...

Z

Human bodies are made of meat. Some of these mummies etc. illustrate how long meat can be preserved. I wan't suggesting we cracked open a pyramid and went for sweet and sour Egyptian!

[Bushwhacker]

You must be doing something seriously wrong if you have to resort to eating things like that.
If you've found a dead 'whatever' more than likely there's a live 'whatever' in the area too. Trap that and eat it.

[Toddy]

Human bodies are made of meat. Some of these mummies etc. illustrate how long meat can be preserved. I wan't suggesting we cracked open a pyramid and went for sweet and sour Egyptian!

And as an archaeological/historian's aside.......do you know what happened to most of the mummies ?
They were sold to physicians and apothecaries who ground them up and sold them as medicine from the 1100's onwards apparantly.

Really, really glad I'm vegetarian right now. Double

However, those Egyptian mummies were eviscerated and their organs removed and stored in canoptic jars kept beside the sarcophagus............To get back to the OP....gut bacteria is an issue to consider when considering ingesting sommat dead. The e-coli that is endemic in sheep flocks can make the healthy very ill, very quickly.

cheers,
Toddy

[British Red]

Have to disagree on this. You use a pressure canner to kill the spores. The toxin itself is easily denatured by boiling. We consume the spores all the time. They are ubiquitous in the soil and you breathe them in. But if they end up in a can, they hatch out, reproduce, and then produce the toxin which is deadly if not denatured. If you eat the spores, the high acidity in the stomach is generally protective and they pass through your digestive tract without a problem although newborns with low acidity levels MAY be negatively affected. SOMETIMES the spores may find a pocket in the gut where they can survive and grow but this is not common.

Wiki botulism.

Ahh that makes sense completely - and I will bow to the science knowledge involved.

So - are there any products produced by rotting meat that do not become safe with a good boil?

Red

[Hoodoo]

Ahh that makes sense completely - and I will bow to the science knowledge involved.

So - are there any products produced by rotting meat that do not become safe with a good boil?

Red

Not sure but I do believe it could be dangerous. There are certainly toxins produced by bacteria that are not destroyed by heat. Off the top of my head though, I can't say much more. But I have read of old timey explorers getting sick from eating spoiled meat even after cooking.

[British Red]

Mmm I have read the same - can't say where either

I guess that why I assumed the canning and so forth was connected - but clearly not - (I only argue with medical doctors - which isn't a doctorate anyway )

[Hoodoo]

Mmm I have read the same - can't say where either

I guess that why I assumed the canning and so forth was connected - but clearly not - (I only argue with medical doctors - which isn't a doctorate anyway )

Just to piggy back on the canning, one of the reasons you can can tomatoes in a boiling water bath instead of a pressure cooker is because of the acidity in tomatoes. And I remember back in the late 60s and early 70s, it became a concern when low acid tomato varieties came out. Not sure how those are canned. I think some people still do the bath but add ascorbic acid to the can.

[lannyman8]

How does drying and smoking affect rotten meat ? Does that make it safe to eat ?

I'm curious now, more just for information tbh.

cheers,
M

when you change the PH of something it stops bacteria growing, ie add salt or sugar, it takes quite allot, just think about salting beef etc

also if you remove the oxygen it does the same, think of jars or veg in brine.

liquid/moisture, air dried hams for eg.

also more modern ways are ultra violet rays and radiation which kill the bacteria, the item is then vacume packed, this can be contaminated again though, for eg salmonella bacteria on the cooked meet from cross contamination, this would be less effective on say cured smoked beef, due to the high alkali of the salt...

hope this helps a bit....im not the best at explaining things...

regards.

chris.