Decades of conservation destroyed in days. By...

[nodd]

The information is out there its knowing where to look here are two good starting points http://www.sssi.naturalengland.org.u...ssi/search.cfm http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/

[Swallow]

You don't agree with what exactly?

How can you trigger an alert -`before` something happens ???? surely - the event has to happen before people can alert each other to its happening ??

@Jonathan I don't agree that

"Wheels have already been set in motion to professionally embarrass whoever made this decision. That is as much as we can hope for realistically."

is the limit of what can be realistically hoped for. And the rest of my post (including the video) lays out something I think that can to a large extent be done and not just hoped for. Even if there was no push for legislation the makes the registering of such actions available as internet data there is still a hell of a lot that can be done with the type of information usage described in the video.

@nuggets
If you re-read a bit more carefully, if they have to log what they are doing before it is done, then that's how you alert before it is done. Just like you can book a taxi or pizza on the internet, that taxi or pizza is known as information before it actually happens.

[Swallow]

The same thing is happening up and down the country and has been for decades. It is well documented on loads of wildlife and even reptile sites and forums. It still doesn't stop it from happening though. They don't let us know when. You just turn up one day and find it.

And that CAN be changed.

[JonathanD]

None of us agree with it. But it is all that will happen. Most of the time, you don't even get that.

[JonathanD]

And that CAN be changed.

But it isn't. The same as stopping the new high speed railway cutting down ancient forests and SSSI's. It isn't changing. Not when ££ and human developement come before conservation. You can slow it, but you can't stop it.

[nodd]

But it isn't. The same as stopping the new high speed railway cutting down ancient forests and SSSI's. It isn't changing. Not when ££ and human developement come before conservation. You can slow it, but you can't stop it.

I don't think you ever will but its making sure the mitigation work is done to try and lesson the damage done.

[udamiano]

where the good old days, when you could just turn up with a torch bearing, pitchfork waving mob, and lynch those responsible, Oh well i surpose it became another victim of made H&S laws.

On a serious note though, someone should have their for this and some sort of public accountability. Does the National Trust receive any public funding, If so a FOI request on all future actions can be made. and hopefully this sort of thing can be at least monitored before it happens again.

[greensurfingbear]

I've certainly scrub bashed a few sites and cleared areas but nothing as large as that area in one go and certainly not with consulting surveys or asking people in the know! When I was assigned my reserves I didn't undertake any major work until I'd been there a year just so I had a rough idea of what I was dealing with. It gave me chance to read up on the management plans and meet the people who had visited the site for years undertaking one survey or another.

Seeing stuff like this occurring without proper consideration really boils my blood!


Orric

[JonathanD]

I don't think you ever will but its making sure the mitigation work is done to try and lesson the damage done.

Agreed, but I've been told that mitigation work had allegedly been carried out. I've not seen the report on this area, or know by whom. The local ARG have been involved with this area in depth and the head bod is an old friend of mine. Mitigation work has also been carried out on several other sites were the same thing happened and with far worse devastation you see here. The current system has loopholes, and that ultimately needs to be addressed. Heathland management pits one species best interests against anothers. Do you chop down all the trees to make habitat for ground nesting birds, or do you protect the trees to protect the canopy nesters? The truth is, our countryside is so fragmented, we will lose species en masse as we try to preserve these little islands of green. The natural balance has been lost, and when we intervene, we have to discrimminate. Sadly, reptiles are not cuddly red squirrels, otters, nightjars or barn owls. And this particular reptile is venomous and mostly feared as it has the capability to kill dogs and even humans. It will always have that to comprehend wih before anything else, and even now, many dog walkers kill them on sight. A very vocal woman down south in Dorset has even got her own group together that condemn adder conservationists as a real and present danger to kids and walkers by protecting these pointless and dangerous creatures. I kid you not.

[Tengu]

Yes, I have seen animal lovers kills snakes before. (it was a grass snake but to them all snakes are bad.)

[nodd]

The habitats are so finely balanced that when things are done with out any apparent thought that is when the problems occur. I can see the base thinking behind it but just not the right way of going about it. I was told right a the start of my Uni course you are about to be taught a subject that we do not know all the answers for. Habitat management appears to work better with the little and often approach.

[JonathanD]

Yes, I have seen animal lovers kills snakes before. (it was a grass snake but to them all snakes are bad.)

It's true. You can see the utter disgust sometimes when I tell people what I do for a living. Some people have pity and ask in a sympathetic tone as to how on earth I ended up doing that. I have to jump on Emma and put her in a headlock before she verbally decks the person. Sometimes I don't, and bask in their resulting and ever diminishing stature

[bushwacker bob]

It's true. You can see the utter disgust sometimes when I tell people what I do for a living. Some people have pity............. and I have to jump on Emma

Steady up JD.

[xylaria]

The habitats are so finely balanced that when things are done with out any apparent thought that is when the problems occur. I can see the base thinking behind it but just not the right way of going about it. I was told right a the start of my Uni course you are about to be taught a subject that we do not know all the answers for. Habitat management appears to work better with the little and often approach.

you would think good practice would be standard practice. We have just got permission to use a woodland that is reclaimed forestry. Small sections of the planted spruce are felled , the wood processed and made best use of, and native trees planted in thier place. The project has run for 15 years and I must say the woodland is outstandingly diverse. The little and often approach works. I have seen gorse been managed in the same way, where you wouldn't know it was been managed. Small gaps were felled into the large stands, what needed to be burnt was burnt. The gaps let other species have a chance, and promoted new growth, the burnt areas sprung new growth and some brillant fungi.

I am really horrified at what they have done. They really need to be held to account.

[JonathanD]

Steady up JD.

What's your address again?

[Harvestman]

Umm this is not true! many of their sites are SSSI and they have to maintain them in accordance to the rules set by Natural England and there is this as well http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/what...-and-wildlife/ the argument will be lost with inaccurate information

Looks like I was wrong. Serves me right for using second hand information.

Thanks for the correction

[Harvestman]

I jst saw this quotation in another thread. Somehow it seems to fit in here:

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

[nodd]

you would think good practice would be standard practice. We have just got permission to use a woodland that is reclaimed forestry. Small sections of the planted spruce are felled , the wood processed and made best use of, and native trees planted in their place. The project has run for 15 years and I must say the woodland is outstandingly diverse. The little and often approach works. I have seen gorse been managed in the same way, where you wouldn't know it was been managed. Small gaps were felled into the large stands, what needed to be burnt was burnt. The gaps let other species have a chance, and promoted new growth, the burnt areas sprung new growth and some brillant fungi.


I am really horrified at what they have done. They really need to be held to account.

Even burning an mowing can have devastating effect on invertebrates even when done in a controlled way Grazing is a method that can be fine tuned and produces a sward mosaic which is ideal especially for things like butterflies which are as fussy about habitat and food source as a Pander.

[santaman2000]

Even burning an mowing can have devastating effect on invertebrates even when done in a controlled way Grazing is a method that can be fine tuned and produces a sward mosaic which is ideal especially for things like butterflies which are as fussy about habitat and food source as a Pander.

I cain't speak for the UK environment but some plant species are fire dependent. Many of our pine species won't germinate unless activated by fire. But you're correct it can be devastating to invertabrates.

[bushwacker bob]

We have that problem with gorse.

[nodd]

I cain't speak for the UK environment but some plant species are fire dependent. Many of our pine species won't germinate unless activated by fire. But you're correct it can be devastating to invertabrates.

Hi Burning over here is mainly used on Heathland and heather as part of its management for grouse which like to feed on the young shoots. It has been used in the past on calcareous grassland aswell.

[JonathanD]

... and kills reptiles in their hundreds as they can't escape quickly enough. Perfect example of favouring one species over another.

[santaman2000]

... and kills reptiles in their hundreds as they can't escape quickly enough. Perfect example of favouring one species over another.

True if done improperly. Prescribed burns should (for best effect) only be done in a patchwork pattern. One patch that is burned this year should not be burned for another 5-7 years; and only one patch out of a number corresponding to the number of years between burning should be burned any given year. Thus always leaving an unburned refuge. The point in such an excercise being to try to imitate natural wildfires; at least that's the point among environmentalists who's goal is to restore natural environment. An agricultural goal is quite different and often much, much more detrimental to the natural specied for the benefit of "preferred" species.

[JonathanD]

True if done improperly. Prescribed burns should (for best effect) only be done in a patchwork pattern. One patch that is burned this year should not be burned for another 5-7 years; and only one patch out of a number corresponding to the number of years between burning should be burned any given year. Thus always leaving an unburned refuge. The point in such an excercise being to try to imitate natural wildfires; at least that's the point among environmentalists who's goal is to restore natural environment. An agricultural goal is quite different and often much, much more detrimental to the natural specied for the benefit of "preferred" species.

But heathland is not a natural environment in this country, and was established through grazing and deforestation. The native snakes and especially the adder (heavy bodied vipers), won't flee. They curl around the base of the heather and wait for the flames to pass. Unfortunately, many of them are unable to go deep enough to escape the heat. They aren't like mammals and birds that can take flight. They use their energy up in a burst of speed of only a few metres. So then they choose concealement over flight, and die because of it.

There was a big heath fire in Dorset last year, and it made the news about how many reptiles died in that fire. It was phenomenal. Plus after the fire has gone and those snakes sheltering successfully in rodent burrows emerge, they are picked off by predators as all of the natural cover has been burned away. Heathland is one of the best habitats we have for our native reptiles, but it is unnatural and manmade. Woodland glades and open forest areas were their natural habitat historically, but it has been destroyed almost entirely centuries ago. The heathland is now the main conservation area for our reptiles. But the things that maintain the unnatural landscape of a heathland, kills our snakes off en masse. It is a quandary for sure.

[nodd]

Heathland was produced by grazing and this is still the best way of maintaining it , for all flora and fauna concerned but it not a quick fix. Plus there is more cost involved compared o a land-rover full of volunteers with bow saws.

[santaman2000]

But heathland is not a natural environment in this country, and was established through grazing and deforestation. The native snakes and especially the adder (heavy bodied vipers), won't flee. They curl around the base of the heather and wait for the flames to pass. Unfortunately, many of them are unable to go deep enough to escape the heat. They aren't like mammals and birds that can take flight. They use their energy up in a burst of speed of only a few metres. So then they choose concealement over flight, and die because of it.

There was a big heath fire in Dorset last year, and it made the news about how many reptiles died in that fire. It was phenomenal. Plus after the fire has gone and those snakes sheltering successfully in rodent burrows emerge, they are picked off by predators as all of the natural cover has been burned away. Heathland is one of the best habitats we have for our native reptiles, but it is unnatural and manmade. Woodland glades and open forest areas were their natural habitat historically, but it has been destroyed almost entirely centuries ago. The heathland is now the main conservation area for our reptiles. But the things that maintain the unnatural landscape of a heathland, kills our snakes off en masse. It is a quandary for sure.

To be sure the UK environment is indeed a complex one. Man's influence upon it is so long standing that it would be impossible to disentagle man made from natural now. I wish you all the luck I can.

[BOD]

You do realise I handle venomous snakes daily. Black mambas fit really well through letterboxes.

If it was anyone else other than bushwhacker bob and some other established members I'd say be careful of remarks like that. There are enough loonies around who would report that as a threat.

OT but in my walks I find little interest in most mammals apart from the big charismatic ones. Most of the interesting sightings are snakes, reptiles, frogs and insects. It like scuba diving. The novices want dolphins and manta rays, the expereinced divers go muck diving or look for small stuff in the reef.

[Elines]

I can't be the only member of the National Trust on here - is there some kind of co-ordinated complaint/question that we as members of the NT can raise?

Perhaps something along the lines of:


"Over the past x years the snake habitat on the following NT sites:

• dfgdfd
• asdsadf
• asasdf

has been cleared with no apparent concern or thought for the destruction of a rare habitat, or its replacement.

It may be that in every case the NT went through due process and that these decisions were fully in accord with NT policies and strategy. But this is not at all obvious.

Could you please clarify the position?"


I don't know enough about the technical aspects to draft the best technical case so anyone please feel free to suggest improvements/fill the gaps/extend the point to include other species etc

As an NT member I would be more than happy to refer it through whatever are the formal NT channels to provide another source of information.



EDIT - there is a complaints procedure at:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/shop...ge/item480939/

and it would be reasonable to use that as a part of any concerted effort

[bushwacker bob]

Maybe we should re-name the organisation the National not Trustworthy
Their complaints procedure is based on their SHOP.

As the reptiles in question are just Homeless and not dead, couldn't you relocate them?

[Rockmonkey]

I agree with Kepis and Bushwacker, I think there heart was in the right place, albeit a slight overkill. But as a tree surgeon myself, and seing the carefully undertaken work by "professionals" myself, they were either blind folded, or trying to see how badly they could do the job, or using day release kids from the nut house!!
If it had been one of the lads that work for me, they would have been fired!, Possibly hung,drawn, and quartered!
I try not to think about it, because it makes my blood boil and if it had have been me that saw the gorse cut down after 25 years of study of the adders etc, I think i would have cried, and then gone Charles Bronson on there ass!!!

I feel for you