out of date first aid kit?

[sargey]

what are your thoughts?

dressings in sound packaging.

saline irrigation pods in good condition.

medication.

could it be used: for training? for first aid? should it be destroyed?

discuss......

cheers, and.

[bikething]

My thoughts are

dressings in sound packaging.
- anything that doesn't come into direct contact with the wound (bandages, tape, slings) no problem
- anything that does (non-adherant dressing pads for example) - any sign of deteriation to packaging then ditch it (or use for training) otherwise OK

saline irrigation pods in good condition.
- provided they've been stored in a cool place out of sunlight then OK

medication.
- don't risk it!

but that's just my opinion

I would add, that I would be more critical of stuff that comes into contact with the wound when using it on someone else, than I would using it on myself!

[filcon]

Keep your old kit for pets, definately don,t use o.o.d eyewash.

phil

[rik_uk3]

Throw out the lotions and potions and keep the rest.

[barryasmith]

Dressings etc are often sterilised by gamma radiation. The effect of this wears off after a set period of time, at which point the item is potentially at risk of being unsterilised.

I used to take use by dates on dressings with a pinch of salt until a surgeon I know advised me that they are valid and to be adhered to.

I'd still keep them for training and of course it is up to you what you put on/in your body!

Barry

[Smith28]

I would say anything apart from that which you must ingest is perfectly fine to use 100 years after it's packaged, assuming it is still packaged.

Just what I go by though. I'm still alive.

[BoonDoc]

Don't forget that the makers of medical supplies are out to make money. Sell by dates are there mainly to make more money.

Surgeons are correct when discussing their supplies as they will be putting them inside the body. For a FAK your supplies will be perfectly fine in 100 years.

The medications are mostly fine after their sell by dates. Most medications only loose viability as the years go by. There have been tests done on aspirin that was made over 100 years ago. It is safe but it would take more of the drug to do what it is supposed to.

research

[John Fenna]

The dressings (pad and bandage in one type AKA "ambulance dressings" etc) that I buy have no use-by date...
I get them from my local chemist in boxes of 5 (or is it six?...) and they are cheap.
I forget their name but each dressing is individually, positive pressure sealed items and until I can see that they have lost pressure then I think they are OK ... after that they are for training/fire lighting etc

[Dogoak]

IMHO same as the others, medication, broken packages etc; OUT, anything else thats in good condition OK. I was advised by a proffesional some years ago to carry a pack of blue J cloth type things, very handy for big wounds and heavy bleeding and they arn't sterilised! Might not be conducive with current thinking though.

[pteron]

I don't chuck dressings out - unless the packaging is broken how do they lose their sterility?

Meds and such like, I bin at the expiration date. Ibu is so cheap at sainsburys there's no point in keeping it. We don't use paracetamol.

[The Ratcatcher]

When I was in the RAMC in the 80's, we still had dressings in kits and in stores which were manufactured during WW2, and we were still issuing and using them, so I dont think dressings date expire. As for saline, medications etc., as soon as they are out of date, bin them and replace them ASAP.

Alan

[sapper1]

A lesson I learnt.
Make sure your plasters and sticky things are in date,they do deteriorate and stop sticking.
Had it not been for John Fenna and his up to date kit I could have been in serious trouble last year when I nearly severed a finger with an axe.My first aid kit just was not up to the job,the plasters didn't stick,the roll of plaster didn't stick the micropore didn't stick.If John wasn't there I could easily have lost enough blood to put me out cold and where we were and in the temperature we were I wouldn't have seen the morning.
My advice?

Keep it All up to date and make sure you have enough,you only get one chance at first aid.

[pteron]

A lesson I learnt.
Make sure your plasters and sticky things are in date,they do deteriorate and stop sticking.
Had it not been for John Fenna and his up to date kit I could have been in serious trouble last year when I nearly severed a finger with an axe.My first aid kit just was not up to the job,the plasters didn't stick,the roll of plaster didn't stick the micropore didn't stick.If John wasn't there I could easily have lost enough blood to put me out cold and where we were and in the temperature we were I wouldn't have seen the morning.
My advice?

Keep it All up to date and make sure you have enough,you only get one chance at first aid.

I'm not sure which plaster I would choose to reattach a partially severed finger!

Was it a case of staunching the blood flow or did you need more drastic measures?

[John Fenna]

I'm not sure which plaster I would choose to reattach a partially severed finger!

Was it a case of staunching the blood flow or did you need more drastic measures?

Ach - the man exagerates
Twas naught but a fleshwound ... OK a gaping fleshwound that poured blood like there was no tomorrow - but still a flesh wound
The main point was that the adhesive on his plasters etc was u/s - something that has happened to me before as well - and no dressing would stay in place. I patched him up as well as I could with tape and elastoplast (was there a bit of Gaffa in the mix as well? - I forget now) but as everything was so cold and wet even the steristrips failed to hold.
The silly so and so would not go to have it seen to by a real medic so oozed blood all over his sleepingbag, dog, clothing etc all night and when he did go for treatment (after one of the worst nights on the hill I have ever endured) he was told he was too late and it could not be sewn up ...so he has a nice litle scar as a momento
He sold the axe
This trip has gone down in history as one of the "endurance" bushy trips from Hades!

[BOD]

When I was in the RAMC in the 80's, we still had dressings in kits and in stores which were manufactured during WW2, and we were still issuing and using them, so I dont think dressings date expire. As for saline, medications etc., as soon as they are out of date, bin them and replace them ASAP.

Alan

Yes In 1973 i was issued a field dressing that had Admiralty 1944 on it.

Damn fool I didn't keep it would have been nice to have in the FAK

[sargey]

i seem to recall someone saying that medication use by dates had built in cushion, so they're effective long after the sell by date is up.

for the rest my own thoughts are much as alredy mentioned, dressings with intact packaging are good for a long long time.

cheers, and.

[Treemonk]

No-one has actually mentioned the issue that if (and I don't know if it is the case) the kit is for group/facility use e.g. scout hut first aid kit, office kit etc, There is a requirement to keep these kits within date. Also meds should not be in a group kit as you aren't alowed to prescribe.

For your own kit - as others have said - bandages etc keep unless damaged, refresh meds but I'm sure there is a hefty buffer on the date.

Remember with first aid that if you have a nice injury, the hospital is likely to put you onto antibiotics anyway - so absolute sterility is less of an issue than staunching the blood and keeping someone alive.

[udamiano]

I used to be in charge of the medical room at work and when stuff went out of date, they were donated to the local First-Aid training group for the St Johns

[Graveworm]

No-one has actually mentioned the issue that if (and I don't know if it is the case) the kit is for group/facility use e.g. scout hut first aid kit, office kit etc, There is a requirement to keep these kits within date. Also meds should not be in a group kit as you aren't alowed to prescribe

It is not prescribing to give non controlled medicines and anyone can legally give them to anyone who wants them. The issue that gets overblown is around civil liability and so long as you act with reasonable diligence you will never have anything to worry about. It is not part of first aid at work to administer any medication with the exception of aspirin for cardiac conditions and certain medications that are carried by the individual. It is the HSE recommendation that medicines and tablets should not be kept in workplace first aid kit. Remote and offshore first aid kits do and are recommended to contain meds.

[Maxip]

Personally, I'd prefer to keep the FAK with all in date dressings / bandages and as has been said before, change plasters & anything that is sticky on a regular basis as they lose stickiness especially when taken to hot & cold climates. I would bin (via the local pharmacy) any OOD medicines but use any bandages / slings / etc for training. If you have no use for them, I'm sure local Scouts / First Responders / St Johns / etc would gladly take them.

I maintain 3 kits and endeavour to keep them all in date - a personal one (with medication, pain relief, etc.), Scout Group (no medication but plenty of bandages / plasters), hockey team (no medication but external pain relief spray / gels). Most items in a FAK are reasonably cheap and I will always err on the side of caution when it comes to health.

[Exploriment]

Read this article and then decide.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-part-one.aspx
If an organization as large as the US military deems it unnecessary to toss out most medicines, save for a few specific classes (antibiotics, insulin, nitroglycerine), I will take my cue from them. Expiration dates are a brilliant, and I do mean brilliant, marketing scheme. Medicines don't go from effective to inert the day the expiration date is reached. They don't go from medicine to lethal poison at the strike of midnight.

I use stuff long past the expiration date, and do so with no qualms whatsoever. Gauze is gauze, and even if the package is damaged, if it's that or having someone bleed out, I will use it. Even if by some miracle the patient gets an infection from that gauze, an infection can be treated. Death from exsanguination can't.

[kINGPIN]

^I couldnt agree more.

[Harvestman]

Well in date in obviously good, but the choice between an out of date FAK and no FAK is a no-brainer.

[sargey]

Read this article and then decide.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-part-one.aspx
If an organization as large as the US military deems it unnecessary to toss out most medicines, save for a few specific classes (antibiotics, insulin, nitroglycerine), I will take my cue from them. Expiration dates are a brilliant, and I do mean brilliant, marketing scheme. Medicines don't go from effective to inert the day the expiration date is reached. They don't go from medicine to lethal poison at the strike of midnight.

I use stuff long past the expiration date, and do so with no qualms whatsoever. Gauze is gauze, and even if the package is damaged, if it's that or having someone bleed out, I will use it. Even if by some miracle the patient gets an infection from that gauze, an infection can be treated. Death from exsanguination can't.

interesting info thanks for that.

oddly, the things that might be of interest to bushy types, from the above article...

The military has found that water-purification tablets and mefloquine hydrochloride, for malaria, routinely fail stability testing beyond their expiration dates, so it has removed them from the program.

so if you're heading off on safari......

to my mind, there is an obvious difference between first aid kit used for personal first aid, and stuff used for groups/work/public.

cheers, and.

[hedgerowpete]

on dressing the sell by date as you call it, is the actual used by date and the reason it is there for is that date is a set time span from when it was steralized for sending out, the gels etc are disposible, by all means use the whole lot dressings gels etc to practise with as they are brilliant for that, i woul deven buy some of those fake plastic wounds so you can add to the realisim of it all which helps no end to do,

[Beardy]

I have a couple of Israeli field dressings I checked recently. Both out of date, one's package was still taught (vacuum packed), the other had puffed up slightly and allowed the ingress of air (and potentially moisture and other nasties). Packages still with a vacuum I treat as usable, even if the date has past: it was sealed and made sterile, if the seal has demonstrably not broken then it must still be sterile. The dressing from the package that allowed air in is now a training one, although those dressings have two layers of packaging so even with a leak in one the dressing itself was probably still fine.

Another point is if you are packing a tourniquet at all you should probably get another, one for training purposes and one kept unused. Apparently US troops are getting a few failures with the CAT, the likely reason being lots and lots of practice drills with it in some very hot temperatures (plastic windlass no likey) before it gets used for real. Just thought there may be some tree surgeon or such here who might carry one.

[BoonDoc]

Apparently US troops are getting a few failures with the CAT

The original CAT that was issued around 2004 had a narrow windlass that bent and broke when kept in extreme temperatures. The newer CATs fixed this with a windlass that gets wider in the middle.
US Marines do not practise with the tourniquet that they wear. That one stays in plastic and on your armor.

Some eejits were prepositioning the CATs on the upper arms and legs in anticipation of being hit. Not the brightest option out there.

Regarding the sell by date on bandages. The bandage is fine. Even if air got into it and bacteria are present there is no problem with using out of date kit.
The bandage will be on for at most an hour. At the A&E you will get the wound cleaned out and probably given an antibiotic.

People need to realise that bandages do not go out of date because of air getting in or due to the manufactures date. The makers of kit want to sell you stuff. They cannot do that if you realise that their kit is still usable.

[Broomstickize]

Don't forget that the makers of medical supplies are out to make money. Sell by dates are there mainly to make more money.

Surgeons are correct when discussing their supplies as they will be putting them inside the body. For a FAK your supplies will be perfectly fine in 100 years.

The medications are mostly fine after their sell by dates. Most medications only loose viability as the years go by. There have been tests done on aspirin that was made over 100 years ago. It is safe but it would take more of the drug to do what it is supposed to.

research

Although I agree with the fact that the product will probably be fine, the date is not there to make money but to save it.

I've worked in an situation where we were looking at the aging of product.
For anything - whether it's the painkiller in your FAK or the likely-hood that your cam-belt fails - you are using the mathematical probablility that something happens (or doesn't happen). You can predict the rate at which something will fail or become effective over time and then with a customer, industry or legal standard set a failure rate that is 'unacceptable' then work out the life of your product (or set the time and work out the failure rate at that time).

In my line of work (10 years ago!) we were looking at electical cables (for large-scale power distribution). The expectation for things like the cable running things like the national grid is that a cable would have a working life of 40+ years, i.e that only a small amount of failures would be expected before that date - because this cable is expensive to install/repair and consumers don't like their power blinking out.
However, the rate of failures isn't steady - so with cable, if it works first time it will generally last a long time but as the materials age you are more likely to get a failure and that failure rate actually dramatically increases after a certain time but any single bit of cable could still fail at any time be that short or very long. The manufacturing and the life of the product all affect this... a cable out in the sun will get UV damage, in a tunel it won't.
So, to make sure that we could say that less than 0.1% of cable fails after 40 years you are actually saying that in all probability 99.9% of the cable will last longer. At the time London Underground had cable that was over 60 years old and going strong - you just have to bear in mind that as a company we were no longer beholden to our customer because they had chosen to exceed our reccommended life.

For stuff that can injure people we are even more careful. Food, medication and even items like cars HAVE to be safe so that the fail rate is less than single digit parts per million. The human costs if they are not are too high - think of a car not braking suddenly, people are liable to die or at least be very annoyed. That cost translates into a financial cost or risk - for the car, how many millions are paid out in damages or how much business is lost because your reputation is damaged.

So back to the FAK! Your use by date is there to prevent everyone putting what the manufacturer, industry or legislation tells you is likely to be a non-effective or dangerous product in or on your body. Plus Glaxo don't get rich making bandages and they certainly don't want lawsuits all over the place because someone used one after leaving it by the pooper-scooper in your cupboard for 25 years. So it's not about making money or a marketing scam.

Most likely you willbe fine, it will work or at least not harm you BUT do you want to wait until you need it to work for it not to work... It's all down to how much risk you like. I have old bandages but replace medicines, etc because I've made a judgement on the risks of things happening.

[Broomstickize]

Although I agree with the fact that the product will probably be fine, the date is not there to make money but to save it....

Sorry it's a bit of a rant but even though I know we live in a cut-throat world and that BBE dates are open to discussion it does annoy me that generalisations are made...