waterproofing versus water management

[andybysea]

John, Ive got goretex jacket's, but i rarely use them,when im out camping etc(mostly beach stuff so in the exposed open) i do tend to use as a outer garment a old dye'd swedish snow smock over varying layers of man made or natural fibre clothing, and do sit /walk around if there's shower's etc and i am ok, but if it became a heavy prolonged downpoor its under the tarp of in the tent, if i stayed out in them without goretex or the like,id be soaked through and then be uncomfortable the rest of time out,and that's why i agree totally with Squidder's last line. I personnely dont find wool in anyway waterproof,and i have a few good wool layer's yes they are warm,comfy,and ok in the damp,but take a age to dry when soaked.

[John Fenna]

Before synthetic fabrics were developed then wool was used extensively as a waterproof layer.
I rather think that wool of the apropriate type/weave/treatment is readily available these days (replaced by cheap synthetics and now uneconomic to produce) but a good tight-woven/felted oiled wool would most likely be a lot more waterproof than most woolens easily available today.
Personally I find a good Ventile - especially double layered - over a wool layer a warm, comfortable and almost totally waterproof layer system. If that prooves too warm then I usually throw a poncho on over a single Ventile to beat a thorough downpour
I am looking forward to hearing the results of Treadlightlys test as I would prefer to go "all natural" in my clothing.
Most of my outdoor activity now centres around camp due to old injuries making themselves felt - but lat time I spent any time in thrashing rain I was wearing the jacket I made from the fabric Topknot found - a Ventile clone type fabric (ultratight woven cotton but with a surface treatment of some sort of wax that apears to be fire retardant) and even after 30 mins in pouring rain my body was still dry ... my legs in cotton combats were soaking and I was so wet my socks were soaked from water running down my legs!
It was a good thing I was in town doing the Xmas shopping and could go home and get dry!
The fabric of the jacket is so waterresistant that when I put it on a 40degree was with ordinary non-bio powder the jacket did not get cleaned of its construction marks as the water did not penitrate the fabric!
In hot weather the jacket feels as light and comfortable as Ventile...
Having tried various MVP waterproof over the years as part of my paying work I think that mostly they are uncomfortable, overpriced, un-ecco and too shortlived compared to naturals and if you can "manage" water ingress rather than rely on wearing MVPs (like managing wet/dry clothing in the jungle for instance) and stay within your comfort tollerances then great
Let us see how the light footed one gets on with the wool

[treadlightly]

Thankfully we've had a bit more rain round here of late to test my wool's waterproofness, if that's a word.

To answer squidders' point first, the theory I'm hoping to test is that with layers of wool, even if water soaks through you remain comfortable and warm.

Anyway, I've recently enjoyed a couple of three hour walks in pretty consrant and fairly heavy rain with my trusty wool duffel, a wool medium weight jumper underneath and a wool base. Again I have been quietly amazed at the duffel!s ability to keep out the water.. Iti isn't particularly thick but fairly densely woven and the inside of the fabric was dry, even on the shoulders after my jaunts.

Nothing appeared to get through to even the mid layer never mind the base layer. Afterwards the coat was wet and remained wet overnight and well into the next day but at no stage was it uncomfortable to wear, which is the main point I think.

I plan more stringent tests when the weather allows ans when it really chucks it down I will wear a wool cape over my main outer layer which I hope will do the trick.

Thanks guys for your interest.

[cbr6fs]

Great update.

I would advise you to take some spare clothes in really really heavy rain conditions, as once even the best wool reaches a certain saturation point you will loose a lot of body temp very very quickly.


Any chance of some pics of your kit?

[Squidders]

How are you finding the weight? I often wear wool, albeit not full layers and i'm wondering what the real penalty is over modern light-weight materials. Also, to take overnight and half of the next day to dr out, the clothes must have been carrying a weight of water too.

[treadlightly]

How are you finding the weight? I often wear wool, albeit not full layers and i'm wondering what the real penalty is over modern light-weight materials. Also, to take overnight and half of the next day to dr out, the clothes must have been carrying a weight of water too.

The duffel weighs 1.8kg dry and comes down to below the knee. Next time it gets wet i will weigh it to see how much extra weight of water it absorbs. But even when it was well sodden i didn't feel the extra weight.

[rg598]

I wear mostly wool these days in the woods. My experience has been that wool's ability to keep you warm when wet is greatly overestimated. Every time a part of me has gotten wet, it has been noticeably colder. A few weeks ago I was out, and got the knees on my wool pants wet. It was fine while I was moving around, and generating heat, but when I stopped, and certainly why I slept, I could feel the cold exactly in the areas where my cothing had gotten wet.

Wool gets wet very readily. You can treat it to make it more water resistant, but that adds significant weight to an already heavy material. Cotton overcoats are fine for the wind, but in my experience do not do much better in the rain.

Wool is a good material, but we have to understand its limitations. To disregard them is not wise. As far as weight, untreated wool clothing with a cotton cover provides about half the insulation per kilogram as modern synthetic clothing: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011...and-early.html

This has been just my experience. At the end of the day, we like what we like, and no amount of data will change that. After all that is why I wear wool clothing despite its limitations when compared to modern clothing.

[treadlightly]

For me at least, today, St David's Day, marks the end of winter. I can honestly say I have been out and about since November without any plastic/laminate to protect me from rain, not even my nylon poncho was needed. Wool has done the job superbly protecting me from rain, snow and sleet. Roll on the spring rain.

[John Fenna]

For me at least, today, St David's Day, marks the end of winter. I can honestly say I have been out and about since November without any plastic/laminate to protect me from rain, not even my nylon poncho was needed. Wool has done the job superbly protecting me from rain, snow and sleet. Roll on the spring rain.

Sounds great fun!
The only plastics I have had to wear all winter have been bits I have had to review - personal time was/is spent in wool and Ventile

[johnboy]

Sounds great fun!
The only plastics I have had to wear all winter have been bits I have had to review

Having tried various MVP waterproof over the years as part of my paying work I think that mostly they are uncomfortable, overpriced, un-ecco and too shortlived compared

Does that view come across in your reviews of kit John??

I respect your views totally in the ventile / wool v synthetics argument.

I do wonder how given your views which you've extensively given here on BCUK you stay objective and relatively impartial when reviewing say a goretex jacket for Gun Mart??


http://www.gunmart.net/accessories_r...la_pro_hunter_

[treadlightly]

Well, after declaring winter over, I found myself out over the weekend on maybe the wettest day for weeks. I went on an overnighter knowing one day would be fine, sunny and quite warm and the other would be very wet and cold. So, what to wear?

I went for a merino baselayer, swanndri swool shirt and a wool gilet. Swedish army wool trousers, tilley hat and BB summer boots completed the get up. I also took along a piece of wool blanket I had picked up in a charity shop for £1. It was densely woven and there may be a bit of mohair in there judging by the appearance.

On day one I was fine, if a little too warm in my gear, but nothing much to worry about. It was when I woke to the sound of rain on the sunday I thought that maybe I was under-dressed. In all I spent about five hours walking and pottering about the woods in pretty heavy rain made worse by a gusty wind. The temperature began at around 7C but dropped as the day went on so that is was around 3C and sleeting when I left for home.

The blanket tied around my shoulders covered most of my upper body and arms and did a terrific job of keeping me dry. Underneath, the shoulders of the wool gilet remained dry - the blanket just soaked up the rain. It weighs 700g dry and when I got home it weighed 1.6kg. I knew wool absorbed water well but had no idea it could take this much.

The Swedish army trousers also did well. They were wet, but not uncomfortable to wear.

The most important thing for me was that I felt comfortable out in the rain throughout, I never felt the need to seek shelter, the clothing felt completely at home in the conditions.

[rg598]

Here is some testing on the insulation of wet wool: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012...-when-wet.html Take it for what it's worth.

[Big Stu 12]

Interesting read....

I have been wondering after seeing a few articals on here about making my own, Woolen Blanket Hoodie, most of the time I like not to wear an outer waterproof layer unless I have to, so I been wondering about putting wax cotton sholders on my new yet to be made hoodie...or do I water proof the wool but after rading someof this I am now thinking a differnt way......

Think I will make it without the wax sholders and see what happens.. thanks for the benifit of your experiance guys..... I ve aklways been stuck between old ways versis new ways.

[treadlightly]

The shoulders are the most exposed area so keeping them dry is paramount. Wax cotton shoulder covers would work well, i reckon or even a smallish cape that you could keep in a pocket and use when the rain starts.

[treadlightly]

Here is some testing on the insulation of wet wool: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012...-when-wet.html Take it for what it's worth.

Thanks for that RG, very interesting. I have no quarrel with the argument that wet wool does not insulate as well as dry. But if you layer up the outer layers of wool get wet and keep the inner ones dry so insulation is preserved. If you get wet through then you get cold whatever you wear.

[Chiseller]

Id sooner have wet wool socks than synthetic or cotton. And there is a good reason why old trawler men wore/wear wool under their rubbers. Dang, I miss my old arran

.

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sent using my sausage thumb

[bilmo-p5]

The shoulders are the most exposed area so keeping them dry is paramount. Wax cotton shoulder covers would work well, i reckon or even a smallish cape that you could keep in a pocket and use when the rain starts.

Good point about the shoulders, but wouldn't waxed shoulders cause wet patches where they stop? (like how you get wet knees if you wear a cagoul without overtrousers). Perhaps a seamless raglan type of shoulder with a linen lining might work.

[_mark_]

I've been after some Dachstein wool kit for a while as I have heard only good things about it.

[Big Stu 12]

Good point about the shoulders, but wouldn't waxed shoulders cause wet patches where they stop? (like how you get wet knees if you wear a cagoul without overtrousers). Perhaps a seamless raglan type of shoulder with a linen lining might work.

Intersting suggestions, I was also thinking that it gives the wool a bit of protection when you carry things on your sholder, as well as smoe sort of proofing, but all advice/comment is welcome.

As some times an idea is not always the best.... :-)

[treadlightly]

Good point about the shoulders, but wouldn't waxed shoulders cause wet patches where they stop? (like how you get wet knees if you wear a cagoul without overtrousers). Perhaps a seamless raglan type of shoulder with a linen lining might work.

Agreed. The run off becomes the problem.

[John Fenna]

Does that view come across in your reviews of kit John??

I respect your views totally in the ventile / wool v synthetics argument.

I do wonder how given your views which you've extensively given here on BCUK you stay objective and relatively impartial when reviewing say a goretex jacket for Gun Mart??


http://www.gunmart.net/accessories_r...la_pro_hunter_

I review each item on its own merits and for the market it is intended.
I do not do comparisson reviews as I find this contentious as often personal prejudice can play too large a part...
I have reviewed many MVPs and Ventile garments over the years and while synthetics have their place and can work well I will always maintain that well made, well treated, naturals will out last synthetics and have less negative effects on the environment.
These days I try to review more natural fabric items in an effort to promote their performance capabilities.
I do still use and review synthetics when they are apropriate but when I have to shell out my own dosh I always look at the naturals first....

[rg598]

Thanks for that RG, very interesting. I have no quarrel with the argument that wet wool does not insulate as well as dry. But if you layer up the outer layers of wool get wet and keep the inner ones dry so insulation is preserved. If you get wet through then you get cold whatever you wear.

That's true with respect to the clothing that remains dry. It will retain its insulation. However the outer clothing that got wet will lose the insulation that it was providing (to the degree wet wool loses insulation). Assuming you were wearing sufficient clothing to be warm, but not overheating, if one or two of your three layers gets wet, that's significant loss of insulation, and may bring you to the point where you can not thermally regulate.

[treadlightly]

That's true with respect to the clothing that remains dry. It will retain its insulation. However the outer clothing that got wet will lose the insulation that it was providing (to the degree wet wool loses insulation). Assuming you were wearing sufficient clothing to be warm, but not overheating, if one or two of your three layers gets wet, that's significant loss of insulation, and may bring you to the point where you can not thermally regulate.

I agree that is possible but I suspect you would need to be out in very heavy rain and for the wool to become saturated. I spent several hours out in moderate rain in cold, windy conditions and the blanket outer layer more than doubled in weight but no water got through to the second layer and I did not get cold.