Scotland A Testing Ground Again!

[southey]

is it as much of a problem in southern urban areas too? is it abused in just northern peeps that abuse buckfast?

[andybysea]

It makes no sense just picking on Buckfast,they'd just revert to the cheap gut rot cider you mentioned earlier(and just hit there victim with whatever came to hand or use there hands and feet) i wish all bottles were glass no bpa in our bodies,and less impact on the enviroment.
Oh and as for the tag id make it so it gave them a huge electric shock when they started to drink,that would surely work more than a idle threat to send em to jail,and would'nt cause overcrowding.

[Martyn]

Ahah, no you don't.
This isn't partisanship, this is sheer damned commonsense.

The idiots, whether Scottish or English, or whatever variety, aren't going to stop drinking. Regardless of how much we demand that they take personal responsibility for their actions.
....and on that bit did you actually *read* the above posts ? Buckfast isn't just dirtcheap booze, it's an enormous buzz too on top of drunk as a skunk.
Only when in that state does the glass bottles bit come into play, because suddenly it's funny to bash your idiot mate, or the unfortunate bystander with one.
I don't ever recall a cheena teacup being used to 'glass' someone

The monks could quite easily do a tremendous amount of good by simply changing bottles, but they are staunch in their unholy belief that their rotgut is a, " quality product deserving of the glass bottles."

Uhuh. We all believe that, don't we ? ...........and yes, that is Scottish sarcasm at it's most unsubtle.

Well if it's not national partisanship, it's the worst kind of nannying socialism. It absolves those responsible of their responsibilities, attempts to wrap society in a big ball of cotton wool and take away anything sharp or pointy that might act as temptation for the poor dumb idiots into filleting each other. The problem, aside from obviously not laying responsibility at the door of those responsible, is that the whole of society pays the price, because it's the whole of society that gets treated like poor dumb idiots that are not capable of holding their own breath, let alone anything with a modicum of risk. It's that kind of socialism that leads to a grossly misplaced sense of entitlement of the kind we saw in the London riots - it's not their fault m'lud, it's currys and dixons showing those nice plasma TV's they cant afford. It's not their fault m'lud, it's ours because we dont provide enough recreation for their kids, it's not their fault m'lud, it's because they are black - or any other excuse that can be dreamed up.

It's not working locking up the scrotes ( not sure what that means but it escapes the swear filter and I like and trust you enough to believe that it means what it sounds like), the prisons are bulging to no good effect.

Then build more prisons. I'm sure there is an island in the Hebrides they could share with the Gannets. Or make working for dole compulsory on penalty of food stamps & soup kitchens if they dont turn up. There are a billion options that dont involve the rest of society paying the price for their idiocy and criminality by being forced to live under a nanny state.

[Toddy]

Perhaps a better way to deal with the "glass" problem would be to levy (by law) a large refundable deposit on the bottle itself.

Good point They refused to offer a return on the bottles. Said that they couldn't guarantee that they'd be useable and it would affect their profits.

Andybysea, I know what you mean about the plastic too. I really hate the stuff, but the glass is a nightmare. What would work would be a biodegradeable plastic The damend rotgut would probably eat it's way through it though

The shock factor would just make it a joke for fellow numpties to pour some booze into the idiot, besides, is that not against their human rights not to be tortured ? or physically punished ? Caning and the birch and the belt have all been stopped as barbaric, bet this would come under that brief too

cheers,
Toddy

[Tengu]

Round here we have lots of pubs closing.

But theres still an alcohol problem...Not that anything is done about that.

[santaman2000]

Good point They refused to offer a return on the bottles. Said that they couldn't guarantee that they'd be useable and it would affect their profits...

Not sure how it would hurt profits as they would only be returning a deposit which the customer had left.
Anywho, if were a legal requirement it could be made at any level. For example an individual city could require it be charged and returned the local merchants. Over her such requirements are usually statewide (not countrywide) but there are some that are only citywide.

[santaman2000]

...Oh and as for the tag id make it so it gave them a huge electric shock when they started to drink,that would surely work more than a idle threat to send em to jail,and would'nt cause overcrowding.

There is a drug (antabuse) that causes violent vomiting if alcohol is consumed.

[sasquatch]

is it as much of a problem in southern urban areas too? is it abused in just northern peeps that abuse buckfast?

I've abused a bit of the buckies down here!

[Jock]

Got to agree with those who have suggested that the chemical makeup of Buckfast makes it more lethal than many other drinks. Its simply not the same as getting drunk on
lager or spirits

I'd also agree with those who say that no-one is forcing people to drink it , however it's sad that something which is so "un-Christian" and can have such evil effects is sold by Monks

I'd raise tax on alcohol containing high levels of caffeine in a minute if I could

[Maggot]

Andybysea, I know what you mean about the plastic too. I really hate the stuff, but the glass is a nightmare. What would work would be a biodegradeable plastic The damend rotgut would probably eat it's way through it though

cheers,
Toddy

Paper windows then? Cardboard vases? Fuzzy felt wine bottles? Granite watch faces?

I am afraid, the only thing is for individuals to have to take responsibility for themselves. From a purely commercial point of view, I bet it would be cheaper for the Monks to use plastic, they make a commercial decision to use glass though. Better for the environment as it's recyclable, and it makes for a better feel to the product. Remember, this is a product that does not just get sold in Glasgow. As for the returns thing, well Lucozade, Coca Cola and almost all dairies made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reasons. You can't pin that one on the Monks either.

[Maggot]

Got to agree with those who have suggested that the chemical makeup of Buckfast makes it more lethal than many other drinks. Its simply not the same as getting drunk on
lager or spirits

I'd also agree with those who say that no-one is forcing people to drink it , however it's sad that something which is so "un-Christian" and can have such evil effects is sold by Monks

I'd raise tax on alcohol containing high levels of caffeine in a minute if I could

No point in raising tax, it would just be purchased seperately and mixed. Supermarket own brand "Red Bull" type drinks 50p per litre, supermarket own brand vodka is a couple of quid. Bingo, high caffeine, high alcohol drink, but only the alcohol bit would be taxable.

I think you should drop the un-Christian tack, I thought politics and religion were banned on here?

[santaman2000]

Paper windows then? Cardboard vases? Fuzzy felt wine bottles? Granite watch faces?

I am afraid, the only thing is for individuals to have to take responsibility for themselves. From a purely commercial point of view, I bet it would be cheaper for the Monks to use plastic, they make a commercial decision to use glass though. Better for the environment as it's recyclable, and it makes for a better feel to the product. Remember, this is a product that does not just get sold in Glasgow. As for the returns thing, well Lucozade, Coca Cola and almost all dairies made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reasons. You can't pin that one on the Monks either.

Cain't speak for the dairies but as for Coke, they dropped deposits because they cain't re-use bottles due to sanitary reasons. However the deposit system I mentioned doesn't cost anyone any money (except for those who fail to return the bottle) and re-use isn't necessary.

[Martyn]

I'd also agree with those who say that no-one is forcing people to drink it , however it's sad that something which is so "un-Christian" and can have such evil effects is sold by Monks

I think that's just part of history isn't it? Monastic brewing isn't just a phenomena of Buckfast Abbey, I'm sure Toddy will confirm that pretty much all the archaeological monastic sites had their own breweries. Monks have been brewing beer, ale, wine and mead for as long as there have been monks. Not just in England, but also the Benedictines of western Europe, the Trappists of Belgium and Norway ...in fact monastic brewing is pretty much ubiquitous throughout the Christian world, including the USA.

It's apologist in the extreme to try and deliver responsibility for Scotland's ned culture, onto a monastery in Devon - even in small part. it's like blaming Smith & Wesson for all the shootings in the world. Even if Buckfast is abused in large quantities, it's a social problem and needs to be dealt with as such. If it is directly responsible (it isn't, it's just convenient), then the Scottish government should consider banning the sale of Buckfast in Scotland (obviously followed by Strongbow, Tennents, Stella etc...), long before it tries to dictate to the monks. It'd be a brave government that would risk alienating the ned vote though. Much easier to blame a bunch of English monks, eh?

[Nagual]

Let ban alcohol! Remove the issue for ever. While we're at it ban all recreational drugs, ciggies, caffeine and the likes. Only that wouldn't work, as our cousins over the pond found out ( I know they only did the booze bit ). Alcohol abuse is an ingrained problem that will take a hell of a long time to fix. It isn't going to be easy or practical no matter what idea is thought up and used.

The idea of an ankle thingy seems to be a good idea on paper. Instead of paying thousands of pounds per customer of HMP it *should* be less. Of course not all buckie maddies are unemployed eejits, many are working ( means they can afford more buckie.. ) So by allowing them to continue to work, makes them continue to be useful to the community.

[Nagual]

It'd be a brave government that would risk alienating the ned vote though. Much easier to blame a bunch of English monks, eh?

They vote?

[Toddy]

What might work would be a huge price increase by the monks, but at the last accounting, those who drink it in volume are those who are literally keeping their enterprise going.

It's hard not to be cynical and say that profit comes first for them

Some of the monestaries brewed some very good ales, wines and spirits. Very well known for doing so. Mind too however, that before the advent of reliably safe potable water supplies that the small ales were drunk by everyone, even children. It was not only safe to drink liquid but could be quite nourishing too.

From Napoleonic times onwards there is well provenanced literature declaiming the need for the (terribly non pc and now considered rather offensive as well as not really representative of the working classes as a whole) for the lower classes (if someone can think of an easily understood, but courteous way of saying this, I'd be delighted) to be more personally responsible, less irresponsible, more teetotal, more morally upright, more concerned with the wider issues of their self indulgent behaviour.
Every kind of treatment has been tried; from sending them to prison hulks, chain gangs, sent overseas, religious proselytising, sanitariums, fines, birching,......nothing changes it.

I'm no apologist Martyn, and I'm incredibly intolerant of vandalism, of the stupidy of the casually violent, of the littering culture, and I would happily see the drunk as skunks buckie boys and girls restrained in the recovery position until they sober up and see the realities of their mates with smashed open faces, wrecked families and the menace and distress they've caused; but that means that the police and the medical staff then have to deal with them in that state; and who wants to deal with that ? Eventually it ends up the volunteers, the social reformers and their ilk who do the work for no pay and little regard cleaning up society's debris.
I don't think bringing the riots down south into this thread is helpful tbh. I don't know how well the leg tag things are working, but this alcohol one strikes me as just another 'official' attempt to be seen to be doing something.

Is the antabus self administered ? if so, there's no way they'd take it. They aren't alcoholics trying to get a grip on life and needing a little chemical help. They 'like' the feeling they get on buckie, and the caffeine makes it more addictive.

atb,
M

[Martyn]

From Napoleonic times onwards there is well provenanced literature declaiming the need for the (terribly non pc and now considered rather offensive as well as not really representative of the working classes as a whole) for the lower classes (if someone can think of an easily understood, but courteous way of saying this, I'd be delighted) to be more personally responsible, less irresponsible, more teetotal, more morally upright, more concerned with the wider issues of their self indulgent behaviour.
Every kind of treatment has been tried; from sending them to prison hulks, chain gangs, sent overseas, religious proselytising, sanitariums, fines, birching,......nothing changes it.

I'm not disputing that Mary, I know Scotland, particularly Lanarkshire has a real problem with this, it's your attachment of blame to extraneous factors that I am disputing, particularly your solutions. To blame Buckfast is a misdirection and fails to address the inerrant social problems. If you banned buckie, the neds would just use something else, RedBull and Vodka or some other concoction that gave them the buzz they desire. Banning buckie will have no more effect than banning guns have had on gun crime, or banning knives will have on knife crime. Unless you resolve the underlying problems, it will have no effect whatsoever, other than to impose restrictions on the lives of those people who are not your target. You have to address the ned culture, the widespread idolization of the heavy drinker. Until you deal with that, there is no point banning anything and if you do deal with it it, you wont need to ban anything.

I'm no apologist Martyn, and I'm incredibly intolerant of vandalism, of the stupidy of the casually violent, of the littering culture, and I would happily see the drunk as skunks buckie boys and girls restrained in the recovery position until they sober up and see the realities of their mates with smashed open faces, wrecked families and the menace and distress they've caused; but that means that the police and the medical staff then have to deal with them in that state; and who wants to deal with that ? Eventually it ends up the volunteers, the social reformers and their ilk who do the work for no pay and little regard cleaning up society's debris.
I don't think bringing the riots down south into this thread is helpful tbh. I don't know how well the leg tag things are working, but this alcohol one strikes me as just another 'official' attempt to be seen to be doing something.

I dont know what the solution is Mary, maybe these tags will help, maybe not, but of course the monks are going to ignore you, you are asking them to cut their own throats. They are no more likely to stop selling buckie than Benson & Hedges are to stop selling ciggies. It wouldn't change a thing and they know it, so does your government. But at the end of the day, it's the Scottish governments responsibility to find solutions to this, not the monks of Buckfast Abbey. It's your government you should be lobbying, not the monks.

[redandshane]

Posted too late in error deleted

[santaman2000]

Let ban alcohol! Remove the issue for ever. While we're at it ban all recreational drugs, ciggies, caffeine and the likes. Only that wouldn't work, as our cousins over the pond found out ( I know they only did the booze bit ). Alcohol abuse is an ingrained problem that will take a hell of a long time to fix...

All true. The idea of banning ciggies (all forms of tobacco actually) is gaining traction though. Has been for a couple of decades over here and from what my friends in the UK tell me it's coming online there also. Not a total ban per se but a slow tightening of where it's acceptable to smoke. That and an intense advert campaign to make it socially unacceptable.

As you say, it's a slow process; not measured in years but rather in generations. I would expect the same for any attempts to solve problem drinking (or any form of chemical dependency) After all, it's not only an addiction in itself, it's usually passed down to the next generation as a learned behavior.

[Toddy]

Martyn, I don't think I've made myself clear, and I apologise for that, but the drinking of the Buckfast is one issue, the damage caused by the glass bottles the cheap and lethal stuff comes in, is entirely another.

No one asked the monks to stop brewing, they were asked to change the bottles that were sent to the off-licences and the wholesalers. No one objected to the glass ones being retained for sale to visitors to the abbey.

The cheap cider and other such drinks already comes in plastic bottles, and much though we decry the littering and pollution, it really does mean less injuries. The same reasoning as glass tumblers in pubs on match days and the like.

As for the social issues, and it's long term generational effects, I do agree. I'd love to see some way out of this, but folks have been trying since Victorian times to sort it out in UK town and cities and it hasn't been resolved yet. The only ways that seem to lead to long term improvement are a willing teetotalism and a way out of poverty.
Manage that in any numbers and there's a knighthood in it

cheers,
M

[rik_uk3]

Hahahahaha, it is but we're allowed to walk and canoe where we want then fall down drunk. Kindly passing strangers traditionally used to cover us with bin bags as sheets thus inventing the basha/tarp...



Again, correct, more real men should try it...

Liam

I've tried skirts Liam, they are OK, the wife had no problems...then she found out I was using her makeup as well as her skirts and went ballistic.

All this talk of Monks and I'm now torn between two strong urges, flagellation or nipping out to Tesco's for a bottle of Benedictine; I hope the drink urge wins.

[southey]

I prefer Sanatogen

[Maggot]

I've tried skirts Liam, they are OK, the wife had no problems...then she found out I was using her makeup as well as her skirts and went ballistic.

All this talk of Monks and I'm now torn between two strong urges, flagellation or nipping out to Tesco's for a bottle of Benedictine; I hope the drink urge wins.

You'll be fine. Put on a surplus KF shirt and get a few drinks your neck. Penance and salvation all in one easy go

[Martyn]

Martyn, I don't think I've made myself clear, and I apologise for that, but the drinking of the Buckfast is one issue, the damage caused by the glass bottles the cheap and lethal stuff comes in, is entirely another.

No one asked the monks to stop brewing, they were asked to change the bottles that were sent to the off-licences and the wholesalers. No one objected to the glass ones being retained for sale to visitors to the abbey.

The cheap cider and other such drinks already comes in plastic bottles, and much though we decry the littering and pollution, it really does mean less injuries. The same reasoning as glass tumblers in pubs on match days and the like.

Yeah, I get that. But it's the same issue whether you are talking about the glass bottles or the drink itself. You are asking the monks to solve the problem for you. They are not going to do that, their product is being abused, not used. They didnt make it for the neds to abuse and it's not an issue anywhere else. If they were to start bottling in plastic, they would be accepting responsibility for their product being the cause of social problems in Scotland and it isnt, it's just the poison of choice. You are targeting the wrong people, ask your government to pass legislation on the sale of fortified wines and beers making it mandatory that all are sold in plastic. If your government wont do that, why should the monks? Bottom line, it's not Buckfasts problem, it's Scotlands problem. The Scottish government doesnt have to allow it, the Scottish retailers dont have to sell it and the Scottish people dont have to drink it. There is a whole chain there where the issue can be dealt with internally. It's your attachment of blame and responsibility to external factors that I have issue with. It's like you are saying the whole of Scotland is a powerless and passive victim of some kind of conspiracy from English Benedictine monks, to get Scottish neds drunk and glass each other - it's nonsense.

[santaman2000]

Yeah, I get that. But it's the same issue whether you are talking about the glass bottles or the drink itself. You are asking the monks to solve the problem for you. They are not going to do that, their product is being abused, not used. They didnt make it for the neds to abuse and it's not an issue anywhere else. If they were to start bottling in plastic, they would be accepting responsibility for their product being the cause of social problems in Scotland and it isnt, it's just the poison of choice. You are targeting the wrong people, ask your government to pass legislation on the sale of fortified wines and beers making it mandatory that all are sold in plastic...

That's the point I was making regarding deposits on the bottles. They can be made mandatory by government (at a national or local level)

[Toddy]

Martyn it's not just a Scottish problem, anywhere where it's bought in quantity it's an issue. It's not the monks fault that folks buy what they make, it's not the monks fault that they're trying to make a profit. It's greatly to their discredit that they won't help ameliorate the issues that their glass bottles cause.

Think on it like coca cola; they removed the cocaine *and* they now bottle it in plastic and aluminium cans, and keep the glass ones for the folks who pay a premium for them.

I asked the local shopkeeper a wee while ago about deposits on bottles. He said, "I hated those bottles. Filthy things, we had to store, we had to return, we had to lay out cash on up front. Anybody could bring a bottle in and we had to give them the money, even if we hadn't sold the bottle. If we refused we faced the aggro. Not worth the bother. Glad they did away with it."
So I suspect that that idea's not going to work.

The leg tags ? I think Shambling Shaman's original comment was along the lines of, 'here we go again, we're the guinea pigs for yet another bright spark's social initiative '

Richard, we haven't seen your legs, so we can't comment on how good you'd look in a kilt, but a man of your years should go easy on the make up.....mutton dressed as lamb's not a good look

cheers,
M

[Martyn]

It's greatly to their discredit that they won't help ameliorate the issues that their glass bottles cause.

Glass bottles dont glass people, people glass people. Just like guns dont shoot people, people shoot people. It's not to their discredit that they are ignoring this, because it's ridiculous. The ultimate conclusion to this rationale, would be to have everyone in Scotland eating with plastic cutlery, drinking from plastic cups and bottles, looking through plastic windows and then when everything is made from plastic, your neds will still be stabbing each other with pointed sticks. Eventually you will realise that whatever the solution, sanitising the planet is not it.

[outpost31]

maybe? 140,000 people on jobseekers allowance and only 15,000 job opportunities is part of the reason scotland has problems.

[spartacus]

There was a judge in Glasgow in the sixties at the height of the knife gangs, whenever anyone came up in front of him he would say 'think you're a hard man because you have a weapon?' well here is six months/a year IN jail. See how hard you are when you come out. Cured a lot of problems that did.

Six months or a year then WAS prison time. Not the soft option of doing HALF your sentence as a maximum, with your play station etc.

So the real problem is the fact there is little or no punishment attached to a crime to a person.

Steal some money or kill someone. Which gets the higher sentence?

[Ronnie]

Well, that's my Friday night fun out the window then