Sub Zero Crew (Fahrenheit not Centigrade)

[RonW]

Same here! I'm very interested, too.
Jokkmokk should be great!

[Teepee]

Yes Im up for it, sounds very interesting, and it will be good to get back to the north, I've missed it over the last couple of years.

February 2013 if I got the dates correct ?

Anyone heard any news about the ferry being put back on yet. I would be happy to drive over, and that would certainly increase our range.

Its still possible to get over on freight routes. 12 passengers per ship is allowed by law. Sailings from Immingham and Newcastle.

I'm definitley interested. Whatever happens, I'll be heading to the arctic somewhere this winter.

[tedw]

Could be up for this, too!

[udamiano]

thanks Pete, will look into it

[drewdunnrespect]

in that yes i am well up for this but i am no where near peppered in that i dont have much of the gear and i dont know any arctic bushcraft so i would have to go on a course first and then join u guys on this but i am epressing an interest now

drew

[lannyman8]

Wayland this is an awesome idea, dont know how i missed it, i have done the Norway Army Course, ice breaking drills etc etc...

i would be well up for this but funds are the main problem as normal old chap.....

[Wayland]

I would say that is ample qualification.



Welcome to the club mate.

[DUCky]

Wayland this is an awesome idea, dont know how i missed it, i have done the Norway Army Course, ice breaking drills etc etc...

i would be well up for this but funds are the main problem as normal old chap.....

It need not be an expensive trip. Trekking through arctic Norway or Sweden should only be the cost of flights and food once you have the basic experience and kit sorted.

[Teepee]

It need not be an expensive trip. Trekking through arctic Norway or Sweden should only be the cost of flights and food once you have the basic experience and kit sorted.

The flights aren't too crippling either, theres lots for £30-£60 each way if you get on early

[Wayland]

Don't you just love a snowball once it starts rolling...

[Imagedude]

I don't know what religion has to do with it but some of us are of a crafty disposition so that sounds good to me.

Of course if you have a better suggestion I'm open to ideas.

The event was conceived to allow the government to assert control over the Sami people through taxation and religion.
As a life long and time served craftsman myself I'd be interested in seeing the blacksmith (Tommy Blomfeldt) but I'm more of a do-er than a watcher. Some of the old timey skiing demos looked interesting; how interesting they'd be delivered in a language of which I have no knowledge remains to be seen. So that's the first hour sorted, what do I do for the rest of the week/fortnight? I could flesh it out by skiing there from some distant airport but a little Google-Fu has found the JokkMokk touristboard website which does a rather good job of selling the area to me (basically it's got mountains and skiing).
http://www.turism.jokkmokk.se/en/activities.aspx
Wildcamping is allowed under the (unwritten?) law of Allemansrätten however I believe that there are now laws in place that prevent groups of foreigners having 'organised' free camping trips. Fortunately I'm not foreign, I'm British.

[Imagedude]

...i dont have much of the gear and i dont know any arctic bushcraft...

drew

It's the same as summer bushcraft but with gloves on. Find a decent sleep system, a couple of wooly jumpers from a charity shop and a pair of oversize boots and you'll be sorted.

[Ivanhoe]

[Wall of text warning]


I'm starting to follow this thread now and everything said so far
is relevant. The main obsticle is time and money and there's no
easy way around it. I'd even go so far I'd say the budget is the
most important consideration.

If we can keep the cost down by planning or choosing cheap flights
or maybe buy bulk food at discount, it would be well worth the
effort. These sort of expeditions are once per year for most of us.


On the other hand this leaves us with plenty of time to plan,
think and get the gear in order. It also gives us time to think
of what our dreams are and what we would like most of all
to accomplish up north.

Here it is only the immagination that's the limit, because with
a long preparation time it is possible to save a little more and
do whatever you want; driving snowmobiles, taking a serious
survival course, do a long ski expedition, visit a saami village,
stay a night at the Ice Hotel or whatever.


There are a wealth of resorces even in the most northern areas
and if we can get some local individual or association involved
it would make an enormous difference in cost, saftey and
amount of hasstle. One can even talk to the local tourist information
and get to know people that way.


I've been on some get togethers with an association of computer
playing old farts and we've rented schools many times during
weekends for absolutely close to zero cost. Then we have had
lots of space, electricity for our computers, kitchen, showers
and a safe place to keep all our hardware.

There's also a formidable resource in the Home Guard, which where
I live can be used for all kinds of civilian duties. They rent out their
amazing mess, complete with bar, sauna and personel (if you want).

You can even rent the heavy and cumbersome heated tents from them
and I'm sure they would even set them up for you! In fact, I think
they could set up the whole safety organization for us, at a minimum
cost, if we only get the right guy to talk to.

The Home Guard here has, in a 100% civilian role, kept watch over
all kinds of events, from fireworks to Caravan meets and it benefits
both sides; the Home Guard gets some money while exercising...




Finally, it is as I've said, only the imagination that sets the limit.


If some of us would like to experiense real tough conditions we could
talk to the Swedish Armed Forces Winter Unit at I19 / K4 in
Arvidsjaur, which teaches winter warfare to many many countries.
They sometimes run courses for civilians, universities and other
Goverment Agencys, which I am sure any of us could attend.

What I'm talking about is of course 100% civilian Winter skills
without any shooting or soldering. It would cost more than having
our own staff, but then we'd have all the resources of that regiment
behind us for saftey. Just a thought.

http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/Orga...s-Winter-Unit/
http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/Orga...-Unit/Courses/
Check this pdf:
http://www.mil.se/upload/Forband/Utb...slide_bwwc.pdf



Having said that I strongly suspect that Woody's knowledge could
keep this bunch occupied for about 10 to 12 winter meets....

[Imagedude]

The army training idea looks like fun, can you try and get a price per head for a civvy version of the course? Not sure I like the idea of having a 'safety net' though, it defeats the object (and fun) of being in a hostile environment. The possibility of death or discomfort is a prerequisite for a decent experience. Is it possible to ski from Kiruna (or even Bardufoss or Narvik) to Jokkmokk? I can't find details of suitable ski trails on the Interweb.

[Imagedude]

Anyone heard any news about the ferry being put back on yet. I would be happy to drive over, and that would certainly increase our range.

The ferry service may restart this year with prices starting at £800 per car.

[Ivanhoe]

The army training idea looks like fun, can you try and
get a price per head for a civvy version of the course?

Wilco!

123456789

[Wayland]

It's the same as summer bushcraft but with gloves on. Find a decent sleep system, a couple of wooly jumpers from a charity shop and a pair of oversize boots and you'll be sorted.

So Bob, are you happy to take full responsibility for Drew and other inexperienced peoples safety on such an event? I know I'm not.

We were fortunate not to face extreme conditions on the Arctic course that has just run. There I would agree with the statement made above but had the conditions been -30°C or colder, like the temperatures faced at this years Jokkmokk Market things could have been very different.

I'm afraid I think attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

[johnboy]

Why not run a simple Risk Mangement analysis for an Arctic Meet. That way you'll understand the 'risks' better and if you can mitigate them.

If folk want to rock up to any Arctic meet 'you' organise and you have a prerequisite for attendance of prior experience or course attendance how are you going to vet / confirm that experience before the meet starts??

'You' say attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

'I' say ok I've got ML2 from when I served with 3 Commando Brigade and have Yeti'd with me Prussers Planks more times than you had a hot wet and nutty...

Prove I have... or havent...

[RonW]

It's the same as summer bushcraft but with gloves on. Find a decent sleep system, a couple of wooly jumpers from a charity shop and a pair of oversize boots and you'll be sorted.

It most certainly is NOT! I seriously doubt you ever had a serious arcticecperience, judging by your remarks.

Not sure I like the idea of having a 'safety net' though, it defeats the object (and fun) of being in a hostile environment. The possibility of death or discomfort is a prerequisite for a decent experience.

With all due respect, but I think this is quite a dumb remark!
It should be a learningexperience, preferably without any loss of limb or life! Being out there by -25 or lower will be experience enough, I guarantee you, without the extra thrill of possibly freezing to death!
On the other hand, if people were to follow your previous "advice", they'd very well end up in the situation you obviously prefer.....

If there are people present without experience in arctic conditions a safetynet would be a very wise addition.

[lannyman8]

some good ideas coming out lads, this is a very good idea...

[DUCky]

Bob just likes to spice up the discussion

There should be a minimum kit list for any member going on a group outing into the arctic. Basic kit to prevent you from freezing. Watching other people die was a great passtime in the old days but is not usually part of the holiday experience nowadays

That doesn't mean it has to be a walk in the park. Actually the mental challenge of roughing it on a spruce bed whilst trying to keep a fire going will be much harder if you have a nice cosy sleeping bag and downmat within reach. Everyone can go as far as their skillset and comfortzone will let them.

[tedw]

Spot on, DUCky; everyone goes to the edge of their own comfort zone, but this sort of trip is not for the ill-equipped or inexperienced - or passengers!

[forestwalker]

So Bob, are you happy to take full responsibility for Drew and other inexperienced peoples safety on such an event? I know I'm not.

A beginners course in Lappland, away from the village, main outline (his is how we did it the last time I was apart of the team that taught such a course).

Communications: the ability to reach an outside contact at any time, day or night

Transport: having a snowmobile, experienced driver and a sled availble. Either on site, or on call. (e.g. if Billy is hypothermic you bung him in the sled and take him to a hospital, same for any of a number of other serious accidents).

Minimum equipment list. And check that people actually bring the stuff they have been told to bring (e.g. a "winter bag" very nominally rated -15 C is not sufficient...).

Instructors bring some spares on the kit front...

A few days (1-3) of training before you do the field portion. Ski training, theory on hypothermia and frostbite, etc

Somewhere to go "hide" if it turns nasty. When we run the winter basic course we do not go out overnight if it is colder then -25 C. Simply not great a risk of injury. There are cabins and kaatas in lots of places, and while a dozen in one of them might not be nice, it is preferable to risking ones life.

We were fortunate not to face extreme conditions on the Arctic course that has just run. There I would agree with the statement made above but had the conditions been -30°C or colder, like the temperatures faced at this years Jokkmokk Market things could have been very different. One does not have to use it, just have it in case it is actually needed.

I'm afraid I think attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

I agree. Either one runs it as an advanced course, or a a basic course with all the extras that that entails. And even an advanced course should have a safety net: in -35 C it is quite easy to die within hours.

In this case my suggestion is a static camp, not *too* far from road or house (5-10 km?), with at least one heated shelter (tent/kaata/hut) available, a clear set of rules (prior experience, minimum equipment checklist, etc), and some thought to emergencies. Then people could day-trip or play with crafts/skills (making roycraft snowshoes, build quinchies, ice fishing, etc) or do day-trips (etc) away from that camp. We could do it with travel, and new camps every(?) night, that is not cast in concrete, but I think a base camp would be the option with widest appeal (pulling a fully loaded sled can be brutally hard work in deep snow and hilly terrain).

[Imagedude]

So Bob, are you happy to take full responsibility for Drew and other inexperienced peoples safety on such an event? I know I'm not.

No, everyone is responsible for themselves only but everyone should be prepared to help those who fall into difficulty. If Drew (or others) wish to travel overland with me then a six day course will not be sufficient qualification, he'll need a good few years mountaineering experience to qualify. If he wants to visit a Swedish car boot sale for a few days and camp at a local campsite then a few extra pairs of socks, gloves, jumpers and a good sleeping bag will see him right. A few thousand (hundred?) visitors to the market can't be wrong.

We were fortunate not to face extreme conditions on the Arctic course that has just run. There I would agree with the statement made above but had the conditions been -30°C or colder, like the temperatures faced at this years Jokkmokk Market things could have been very different.

No we did not face 'extreme' conditions but we did face conditions that are more likely to cause trouble than simple consistant low temperatures. If things get too gnarly for those attending the market they could always book in at a local B&B.

I'm afraid I think attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

I'm glad you use the word 'project', I hope it implies that you want the trip to be more than a visit to the market. Having 'minimum requirements' to my way of thinking implies that those of us with more cold weather/mountaineering experience will be providing some sort of insurance for those without. This is a dangerous road to go down, in effect having requirements is saying that if you conform to 'our' list of kit/experience then you should be OK to attend. If a person who does conform to a set of stated requirements then has a misshap they could claim that they were led into danger by the set of requirements which gave them a false sense of security. People must understand that we are a bunch of individuals who may 'coincidentally' meet up at remote locations (and markets) occasionally. Such events must be done on an attend at your peril basis.

It most certainly is NOT! I seriously doubt you ever had a serious arcticecperience, judging by your remarks.

Arctic no, cold weather and mixed conditions, yes plenty. Tricky weather is not confined to the Arctic.


With all due respect, but I think this is quite a dumb remark!
It should be a learningexperience, preferably without any loss of limb or life! Being out there by -25 or lower will be experience enough,
I guess some people have different views on the subject, are you telling me that all those people who travel to the event and camp locally are all hairy-arsed cold weather warriors? Is there a major loss of life and limb at the market every year?

If there are people present without experience in arctic conditions a safetynet would be a very wise addition.

Yes, there is a safety net, local hotels and B&Bs. I dare say they'll all be fully booked but I'm sure they'd let someone thaw out in front of a fire for a few hours. If there activities planned involving travel away from a populated area then the situation changes but PLBs are now available for less than £200 so that's the safety aspect covered. Remember, this is not a training event, it's down to the individual to work within their limits.

Bob just likes to spice up the discussion

Exactly, we need robust discussion to ensure that we look at the situation from all perspectives.

There should be a minimum kit list for any member going on a group outing into the arctic. Basic kit to prevent you from freezing. Watching other people die was a great passtime in the old days but is not usually part of the holiday experience nowadays
For some of us mountaineers it has been part of the experience, about once every 4 years so far.

That doesn't mean it has to be a walk in the park. Actually the mental challenge of roughing it on a spruce bed whilst trying to keep a fire going will be much harder if you have a nice cosy sleeping bag and downmat within reach. Everyone can go as far as their skillset and comfortzone will let them.

Here you have hit the crux of the issue, what will we be doing?

It's good that we are seeing that different people have different aspirations for this event. I suggest that if we do go to the market and surrounding area it's done not as some sort of group visit but as a set of individuals who are all attending the same event and have decided to meet-up for a bit of socialising at night.

[Imagedude]

Why not run a simple Risk Mangement analysis for an Arctic Meet. That way you'll understand the 'risks' better and if you can mitigate them.

If folk want to rock up to any Arctic meet 'you' organise and you have a prerequisite for attendance of prior experience or course attendance how are you going to vet / confirm that experience before the meet starts??

'You' say attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

'I' say ok I've got ML2 from when I served with 3 Commando Brigade and have Yeti'd with me Prussers Planks more times than you had a hot wet and nutty...

Prove I have... or havent...

You've addressed my main worry with your post. 'We' are not providing a course, any form of insurance, making travel arrangements for anyone or making any promises. It's merely a group of people who may, coincidentally, be in the same area at the same time, wondering if it's worth getting together at night for a bit of a chin wag.

[DUCky]

Here you have hit the crux of the issue, what will we be doing?

Right you are Bob, I for one would look at the market as an amusing start or finish of the trip, but doing some trekking and shelter building would be my main objective. A couple of days trekking with ski's/snowshoes and pulk would be on my list, combined with a couple of days in camp trying to go without bag and mat in a natural shelter.

I agree that it will be unlikely that we could make one trip itinerary that will satisfy everyone. Having subgroups around a 'mission control centre' would seem most practical.

[Teepee]

Right you are Bob, I for one would look at the market as an amusing start or finish of the trip, but doing some trekking and shelter building would be my main objective. A couple of days trekking with ski's/snowshoes and pulk would be on my list, combined with a couple of days in camp trying to go without bag and mat in a natural shelter.

I agree that it will be unlikely that we could make one trip itinerary that will satisfy everyone. Having subgroups around a 'mission control centre' would seem most practical.

+1 on all of that, although personally, I'd like to be out for longer-probably a week.

I'd like to see the market, but I can't see me spending more than a day at it unless theres a 'Lasso a Norwegian blonde woman for your pulk' stall.

[DUCky]

A week is also what I had in mind

[udamiano]

Yep would also be looking at least a week, possibly two weeks depending on what's available

[Teepee]

Yep would also be looking at least a week, possibly two weeks depending on what's available

Just to clarify, a week spent messing about with birch twigs and sledge knots, 2 weeks in total would be fantastic.

Shelter building is prohibited in Sweden's parks and forests though, needs more consideration.