Sub Zero Crew (Fahrenheit not Centigrade)

[Wayland]

I was asked an interesting question the other day. “Why are you doing an Arctic Course and making all this gear, if you’re not intending to go to the Arctic?”

An obvious answer might just have been, “Because I want to do it” but that question spliced together a loose coalition of ideas that had been rolling about loose in the back of my mind for quite a while.

One of the best things to come out of this forum for me has been the meet ups. By attending the meets I have had opportunities to learn and hone new skills, try out different gear and make some real friends along the way.

I could of course have achieved much the same by attending courses but I am not a wealthy man and my purse would be even thinner if I had done it that way.

The Arctic in Winter presents a whole different level of challenge and for that I believe I do require some professional instruction. For me that is a substantial investment even though the Arctic Courses run through BcUK represent fantastic value. I’m certainly not making that sort of investment without good reason.

My aim in the longer term is to bring together a group of people with the necessary core skills to start running something akin to the meets in more extreme places, like Arctic Norway.

Think about it... These days, with the cost of fuel as it is, a flight to Norway is not much more expensive than driving to Scotland.

By the time we have done this course we will have made or purchased all the necessary equipment. (In fact I already have pretty well everything I really need.)

Considering the group who took the same course in 2010 and others who have acquired the same sort of skills elsewhere there is already a body of people forming on this site with the requisite knowledge and experience to make a start.

Drawing upon local knowledge from some of our international membership we may even be able to find the sorts of venues and locations we need to make this work.

So what do you think?

[SI-Den]

Now to me that sounds like a fantastic idea.

Granted I'd need to attend the relevant course beforehand but the prospect of a 'meet overseas' would be the motivation I need!

An it's a bloody good excuse to get a load more 'specialist' kit ;-)

Den

[southey]

I really like the idea, And as you say it would ace to meet some of our neighbours on their home turf,

[Chris the Cat]

I very much much go along with what you say Wayland.
I, for one, am hooked.
Next year with be my 3rd winter trip and I have been once in summer.
For me, apart from the sheer beauty involved there is something about being near the edge of what is possible
In terms of comfortable existence and functional human tolerance for this mid- forties man. The stripping down
To what is necessary and the joy and peace that brings....
Count me in.
My best.
Chris.

[Teepee]

I love the idea Gary, your sentiments sit very well with me.

I love the cold, I'm a kid in a sweet shop when the white stuff comes out to play with me and I want to do much more.

I've got the bug bad; its August and I'm looking at snowshoes and pulks

With flights to Norway working out cheaper than driving to scotland, it makes sense financially for me too.

I've been doing more and more cold weather trips over the last few years so I've decided to try to learn the skills for me to take this to new levels.

An active group on here, able to go to these places and enjoy it would be fantastic.

[Wayland]

I know what you mean about getting the bug, I'm already looking at the sky and thinking "When is it going to snow this year?"...

[Teepee]

"When is it going to snow this year?"...

You'll like this

Predicting another harsh winter with the gulf stream very weak at present.

[vizsla]

You'll like this

Predicting another harsh winter with the gulf stream very weak at present.

looks like we could be in for some fun then,yippee

[Wayland]

Bring it on.

[shaggystu]

i think that this is an interesting idea gary. having no arctic skills or experiance whatsoever for me to just pack a bag and wander off into the arctic north wouldn't be a good idea. to do it with a group of people who have some experiance of that environment and a working knowledge of the skills required by that environment would be a different proposition.

i'll be following this thread with interest

stuart

[shaggystu]

would the silly hat be compulsary?

[udamiano]

Im definately up for the idea

Same question about the hat though

[Wayland]

would the silly hat be compulsory?

No, but I think getting some professional instruction might be in the early days.

I'm not saying we couldn't get to the point of taking new people on at some stage but I think that might be a couple of meets down the line when we have the logistics ironed out.

The idea is for meet ups rather than courses.

[forestwalker]

For definitions of "arctic" that is slightly confusing to me I live in it. I could easilly arrange a meed up here (Jämtland, expect winter with -15 -- -35 C, snow and conifer forests). Or we could go into the sub-arctic up in northern Sweden/Finland/Norway abd see the edge of the tundra style landscape.

Basic idea would be for someone to find a decent starting point (e.g. a railway station or buss stop), get the information on timetables and ticket prices sorted and distributed. Would people be more interested in a "climb out of the bus and head into the bush" style affair, or "arrive at cabins that will be used as the jump of point, spend a day or two there, and go out for short trips, but have the mod cons available"? One way would be to rent a "town hall" in some village, and have a space to store travel kit, and sleep indoors the final night of the event.

The *actual* arctic is a different beast, and not really to be found on the European continent.

And *I* like Waylands Innu style hat (it is Innu rather than Inuit, right?).

[ged]

Count me in for something. I can rarely afford the time for entire weeks just doing what I want but something shorter could suit me very well. Forestwalker's generous offer to arrange a meet is very exciting!

I wouldn't want to spend days bumming around in cabins, but having somewhere to get everybody settled, sort out plans and kit, haul in supplies while waiting for the stragglers etc. would be fantastic. It wouldn't have to be anything grand, if we can put up shelter it could be somebody's back garden.

Oh, and I think here we're just talking about spending some time north of 66.6 degrees, right? Not actually the pole or anything. I certainly haven't got the time to go on a genuine 'expedition' and I think most of us here couldn't afford anything like that.

I like trees. I don't want to go where there aren't plenty of trees. Vast frozen wastes are all right for a while but they'd bore (or freeze) me to death.

[Wayland]

I was loosely thinking around the official definition of anywhere North of the Arctic Circle but I'm not ruling anything out. We're just kicking the idea around a bit at the moment.

Forestwalker, That's exactly the sort of local knowledge and contact that we will need to get these meets up and running. I guess most people will be flying in so that would need to be a start point but there are probably lots of options for getting to a destination that we haven't even thought of.

I guess most would want to just get out there and that also keeps the cost down, but muster points or facilities are things we can think about further down the line.

Really good to have your interest.

And you are quite right, the hat is Innu style rather than Inuit. I stand corrected and have duly annotated my copy of Jaeger's book too.

[Greg]

I would be well up for this Wayland..what a fantastic idea! Of all the environments one can go into, for me personally the winter north is my favourite.
When we get to Norway we'll have to sit around the fire and have a good chat about it...if we have the time that is! :-)

[forestwalker]

I was loosely thinking around the official definition of anywhere North of the Arctic Circle but I'm not ruling anything out. We're just kicking the idea around a bit at the moment.

While I am using -- loosely -- the Köppen climate zones. I *love* multiply defined terms.

Forestwalker, That's exactly the sort of local knowledge and contact that we will need to get these meets up and running. I guess most people will be flying in so that would need to be a start point but there are probably lots of options for getting to a destination that we haven't even thought of.

Options right off the top of my head would be around here (air or rail to Östersund, then bus), or further north (e.g. north of Kiruna, which is again reachable by air or rail).

I guess most would want to just get out there and that also keeps the cost down, but muster points or facilities are things we can think about further down the line.

Really good to have your interest.

There is the issue of safety. As opposed to the regular UK bushcraft haunts there is a real possibility to injure oneself just by making a mistake (imagine a badly frostbitten foot, or even hypothermia). Having access to a cabin or goahti with a woodstove, or at least a tent with a woodstove, would be the minimum safety margin.


As to timing, would this comming winter (feb-march) be too soon? I have two free weeks that would be suitable (being a teacher does have its drawbacks), one probably week 10, the other around easter). Both are travel horrors in Sweden -- schools are out, so travel is hard to book late -- but the alternative would cost me a weeks wages.

[Wayland]

I take your point about safety considerations. A heated tent would be ideal but that would be prohibitively expensive to bring in by air. One possibility would be a collective purchase with some kind of local storage. That adds a bunch of complications but could be an option for the future.

We could look into hiring some sort of cabin as an evacuation/drying area but I guess that would limit us on location to some degree.

As far as timing goes, a bunch of us, myself included, are heading out to Norway next March to learn and practice the sort of skills we need to do this. This coming Winter may appeal to some that already have the required experience but for the rest of us I think we would be looking towards the Winter of 2012/13

[Greg]

Depending on the area there are alot of lodges (similar to bothies in Scotland only better!) in the mountains that could be used as a safety area should the worst happen. It's just a case of finding someone who knows where they are!

I've just posted this thread to see if we can get a contact.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/sho...868#post944868

[rik_uk3]

If younger or fitter I'd be well up to this, but talk of heated tent is a bare minimum backup. To contemplate less would be foolhardy to say the least IMHO.

Great idea and best of luck with the project.

[barryasmith]

Wayland, Great idea.

I did the BCUK arctic course in Norway last year and have done others. Its an amazing place and you meet amazing people.

I had the pleasure of meeting Chris the Cat and others last year and the idea of a meet up is great.

For me I need trips that dont cost the earth and a lower cost affair is attractive, I love foreswalkers idea of hiring a hall or similar and using that as a base and then making journeys out from there.

I wont be making any winter trips this winter as we have twins on the way and I need to be at home. The following year will see a resumption of my normal Arctic pilgrimage. I'll keep watching this one for the future.

Barry

[forestwalker]

I take your point about safety considerations. A heated tent would be ideal but that would be prohibitively expensive to bring in by air. One possibility would be a collective purchase with some kind of local storage. That adds a bunch of complications but could be an option for the future.

Well, I have the fabric, I just need to purchase a decent woodstove and start sewing. Then it would be mine, but I would bring it to any such event.

We could look into hiring some sort of cabin as an evacuation/drying area but I guess that would limit us on location to some degree.

Should not be too hard or expensive, but as you say a bit limiting.

As far as timing goes, a bunch of us, myself included, are heading out to Norway next March to learn and practice the sort of skills we need to do this. This coming Winter may appeal to some that already have the required experience but for the rest of us I think we would be looking towards the Winter of 2012/13

Ok, then we'll keep this on the back burner, I'll do some rought planning in the meantime, and report back here with my thoughts.

Do you -- collectively -- think that Jämtland area is "arctic" enough, or should I look into locations in the north?

[forestwalker]

If younger or fitter I'd be well up to this, but talk of heated tent is a bare minimum backup. To contemplate less would be foolhardy to say the least IMHO.

Great idea and best of luck with the project.

There are basically two ways to travel in winter. One is cold camps, which can b anything from the latest Hilleberg offering to a trench dug in the snow, and the other is hot camps, which means either a heated tent or a heated shelter of some sort. For heated tent there is two options, one is something like an old Swedish army 12 or 20 man tent and the matching woodstove, and the other is smaller heated tents.

The old army tent version is heavy and bulky (perhaps 20 kg of tent, plus the woodstove), but provides shelter for a smallish group. The other is more of a personal shelter (e.g. the tent used by RM i the Northern Wilderness series) but that could be used as an emergency shelter for a few more, or anyone in any danger of hypothermia.

The idea of a town hall is growing on me; a place to get kit sorted, leave "civilized" clothes behind and somewhere to return to before the end of The Event. But it would add one complication; people would need to arrive and depart at approximately the same time.

[ged]

Well, I have the fabric, I just need to purchase a decent woodstove and start sewing. Then it would be mine, but I would bring it to any such event.

Alternatively I have a group-sized tent which would probably do, although it's a long way from Sweden at the moment. I'd be happy to contribute to the cost of the stove.

Do you -- collectively -- think that Jämtland area is "arctic" enough, or should I look into locations in the north?

As far as I'm concerned it's perfect. What's the average altitude, about a kilometre?

Where are you approximately Forestwalker?

[forestwalker]

As far as I'm concerned it's perfect. What's the average altitude, about a kilometre?

Where are you approximately Forestwalker?

Hmm, find Östersund on a map of Sweden (it will be to the west of the middle on a N-S basis). Go east about halfway to the Baltic coast. Altitude here is not much, a few hundred meters or so. The mountains start west of Östersund. Right where I live it is fairly hilly, which is hard on skiers with packs and pulks, so I'll look around to find areas that is more easilly negotiable for new skiers.

[ged]

... I'll look around to find areas that is more easilly negotiable for new skiers.

This just gets better and better.

However...

The last time I did any cross-country skiing was in Sundsvall about eight years ago, and the last time I did any serious distances on skis (50km/day) was in California, and that was thirty years ago.

I don't even know exactly where my skis are.

You might need to be gentle with some of us when the time comes.

[Wayland]

And some of us have never skied in their lives...

[ged]

I love it! Where d'you get that from?!

[southey]

I knocked up some tele skies last year from a set of 2009 season skis that handn't had binding fitted and a set of rottefella bindings, to use with my Alico boots, worked out £80, work really well trail breaking and not so wide as to plough up the louips(sp),



This was after spending a couple of months trying to find a set of pussers planks, its worth keeping an eye on local sport shops that sell skis to see what old stock can be had,