Tack Kotteman!
I live in southern Dalarna
Native
Native
Tack Kotteman!
I live in southern Dalarna
Settler
Settler
A summary with photographs of the current Finnish Defence Forces m/05 winter uniform can be read behind the link. It is in Finnish but I will be more than happy to translate the parts you're interested in.
http://www.fimnet.fi/cl/laakaripaivat2007/311/1050_Peitso_Ari.pdf
- Page 7. Snow suit. 70% polyester, 30% cotton. Waterproof.
- Page 8. Winter parka and trousers. 70% polyester, 30% cotton. To be used when stationary.
- Page 9. Balaclava. 100% polyester. Equipped with slots for eyeglasses.
- Page 10. Liner gloves. 70% polyester, 30% cotton.
- Page 11. Gloves. Waterproof leather. Used when temperature ranges from +5 to -5°C.
- Page 12. Winter mittens. Waterproof leather. To be used with liner mittens (see below).
- Page 13. Liner mittens with trigger finger. 100% wool, back 100% polyester with PC coating. 0 to -35°C.
- Page 14. Winter rubber boots. 100% rubber with 100% polyester lining.
- Page 15. Winter boot liners. 85% wool, 15% polyamide.
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Full Member
Forager
Marti, very useful, thanks for posting it. Are you aware of any online suppliers in Finland where I could order any of this kit from?Originally Posted by Martti Kujansuu
Thanks
Barry
Settler
Settler
The FDF will not probably allow the manufacturers to sell any of items with m/05 camouflage before the end of the patent time, i.e. year 2016 or after. However much of the items do not have the camouflage and are allowed to be sold to the civilian markets. There are also many similar products on the markets.
FDF combat boots M05
FDF insoles M05
FDF combat socks M05
Finnish mitten inserts, unissued (not m/05 but similar earlier ones)
Finnish mittens m/91, leather, unissued
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Settler
Settler
Has anyone employed both knitted and woven undergarments in the field? There was a small schism between different factions of the Finnish Defence Forces during the 1930s on should the units use knitted or woven underwear made out of the same material. Some argued that woven were better as they were more durable and left still air between the layers but other said the knitted were more comfortable. What's you oppinion on this matter?
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Silver Trader
Native
I can't say that I have to be honest.
I tend to just use normal cotton underwear with merino base layer over the top, then on the torso another merino mid-layer, with either a nice woollen jumper, or shirt depending on how cold it is, with a final jacket over the top.
I would have thought however that the finer locking on a weave would be less an irritation than a courser weave on a knitted item, but it would be dependant on the material used, and are we talking hand knitted or machine ?
Nomad
Nomad
In cold conditions, I wouldn't advise cotton underwear next to the skin.
Settler
Settler
That is what the Finnish forces used during the Wars down to -40°C/F. However it is good to notice that they were wearing flannel underwear made out of cotton or linen with thicker knitted wool mid-layer on top of it. Material is not everything, it is also the weave and finishing.
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Hárbarðr
Part of the Furniture
I've not really used knitted stuff for underwear before but I have used the Woolpower looped type stuff which is similar and been very impressed.
Generally I use fine merino as a base layer which although it is technically a "jersey" type material, is so fine it acts more like a woven layer.
Nomad
Nomad
My grandfather said he also wore footrags whilst sitting in a foxhole near Taipaleenjoki. But that never stopped him recommending socks
Silver Trader
Native
I've worn it well below -30degrees, as long as you don't start sweating, and use it as a backing between rougher weaves, its OK, as Martti quoted its OK as long as it used in conjunction with other layers, and especially if those layers are itchy woollen types
Settler
Settler
I came up with some basic clothing design rules that I thing will hold true for the whole boreal zone from Finland to Canada. These are again based on my new (and old) findings from the Finnish military archives dating from 1920s to 1950s. I'm directing my thinking towards them for the upcoming winter season. Not in any particular order of importance:
1) Rubber boots are always better than leather or rubber-tipped leather boots in wet and/or cold weather regardless the waxs, oilments etc. used to make the leather "waterproof".
2) The best jacket length for movement and dexterity is hip length for mid-layer. 3/4 length is preferable for an overcoat of any material be it windproof cotton, fur or nylon.
3) Cotton does not kill next to the skin if prepared properly (e.g. as flannel) and used with wool mid-layer.
4) The excess use of bare leather (and fur in some occasions but not in dry-cold) on items should be avoided in wet-cold climate as it tends to be cold and break when frozen. However it is good for some special purposes in dry-cold, e.g. covering the seams in felt skiing shoes.
5) All items must be manufactured so that they can be used without the next layer on top of them. This means having pockets in undergarments, making them windproof etc.
6) Layered clothing is good but in right amounts; in general the optimal seems to be from three to five layers of clothing. U.S. Army tried seven layers with M-1943 and found it to be too much.
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Part of the Furniture
Part of the Furniture
Full Member
Native
This thread is everything that is great about BcUK for me, keep it comming Martti!
Swimming trunks or synthetic sports type pants for me under my wool long johns.
Chris.
Settler
Settler
The Finnish Defence Forces actually used knee-length (i.e. shorts) cotton/linen woven underwear under the wool trousers. This way the men could use the underwear layer as work uniform during the summer and still be decent looking! 7) A canteen is useless in Finland and will only add weight one has to carry around. The number of water sources is endless and one can also use mess kit to storage water for short periods of time.
Last edited by Martti Kujansuu; 04-08-2012 at 14:33.
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Nomad
Nomad
I'm replying not because I'm looking for an argument, but simply because this is an issue of outdoor comfort and potentially safety.
You are correct that cotton is fine in extreme cold as long as you don't start sweating. But if you're out in the cold wilds, there are plenty of opportunities to become sweaty. If you do sweat, then cotton soaks the moisture up like a sponge. If you can't/don't change out of your base layer, then as soon as you stop, you can start to chill, and that's not good news, I've been there.. I'm talking as someone who has a wide experience of being and working outside in extreme temps, even <-40°C, where your mobile phone no longer functions, your water bottle becomes ice, where the snot in your nose freezes into crystals which you can crunch with your fingers, where after exertion your eyelashes become heavy as they're weighed down with small balls of ice, where even your damp hankerchief becomes as stiff as a board in an inside pocket.
And to be clear, I'm talking basic cotton long johns and long sleeved vests, that you guys might pick up in Marks & Sparks, not some special prepared cotton material.
Also armies also fit their soldiers out in all sorts of kit that maybe isn't the best option. Look at some British soldiers, who go out and buy a pair of civilian boots rather than use those issued. Even the boots our boys get in the army here can be second or third hand. :-/
Settler
Settler
"Basic cotton long johns" could be used to describe what the Finns wore during the War, except that they were made of flannel (which was "basic" in those days). The long-range patrols were happy with them and the patrol manuals I have read recommend only taking one spare pair for winter patrols lasting up to a week. I would say that a field test of lasting for many years and 500.000 soldiers taking part of it is quite conclusive for saying that cotton is suitable for winter if used as I have described earlier. Cotton has many perks that wool does not have for field use: it is durable, easy to clean and cheap for the goverment to buy for the men.
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Nomad
Nomad
I think your last sentence says a lotIt was more about cost than performance. Finland wasn't exactly rolling in money in 1939. To begin with, the only "military uniform" that many were issued with was a Finnish army cap badge to decorate their otherwise civilian attire.
Today there are too many better options to choose from, selecting a cotton base layer is a poor decision in my opinion.
The other reason, if we are to believe the nationalistic post-war propaganda
Martti, out of interest, what do you use as a base layer when it's -25°C, assuming, a) you're doing something physical where you might sweat, and b), you are outside for an extended period and don't have the opportunity to step inside anywhere if you managed to get sweaty?
Settler
Settler
I beg to disagree. Better in absolutely sense perhaps but we have to also think about factors such as price and avaibility. Several tests, including ones performed by the Finnish Defence Forces during the 1920s - 1950s show that out of natural materials, flannel (cotton & wool) outperforms other materials and weaves in terms of low thermal conductivity and comfort. Wool interlock fabric costs at least five times more than cotton flannel. Wool flannel is warmer by the weight than the cotton flannel tested but the difference in human scale is no more than few hundred grams in the final outfit. Suitable wool flannel is also hard to find.
Let me quote a report from Finnish 2nd Division's 1924/25 winter maneuvers (translation by yours truly): "During the last winter there were multiple trials to find out which was better, [cotton /Martti] flannel or [tricot] wool undergarment. No conclusive answer was reached but 2nd Division's trials showed that both could be used. However the Lapland maneuvers indicated that at least during cold weather ["pakkassäällä"] the flannel ones were better.
Other study conducted by Finnish Institute of Occupational Health's Oulu Regional Office in mid-1980s confirmed that a cotton flannel footwrap was warmer than a knitted wool sock. However tests by Finnish Defence Forces confirmed again that wool flannel is better than cotton flannel, now in footwraps.
Here are references to several interesting studies of fabric and clothing performance that I was able to find both online and in printed form:
Properties of knit underwear fabrics of various constructions
A comparative study of the protective value of certain fabrics in still and moving air
Pellikka, I. 1938. Erikoisen pakkasvaatetuksen tarpeellisuus meillä. Sotilashallinnollinen aikakauslehti 7/1938, 283-299.
Heinonen, J. 1950. Mieskohtaisessa vaatetuksessa ja varustuksessa (hiihtovälineet ml.) todetut puutteet sekä suunnitelma vaatetus- ja varustusprobleemien ratkaisemiseksi erikoisolosuhteemme huomioon ottaen. Finnish National Archive. SKK-1/431.
I have used one or two pairs of knitted cotton long johns with light flannel finishing, somewhat similar what Mallory used during his Everest expedition. They have served me well down to -25°C.
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Nomad
Nomad
Ok, I don't think we're going to agree on this and I certainly don't want to divert what has been a very interesting and informative thread
Many decades ago, the "choices" for cold weather underwear were perhaps more limited than today, and what was considered "a good idea" then, doesn't mean it's a good idea today (remember back then people smoked "Sportsman Cigarettes", doctors regularly prescribed heroin and lightweight camping tents were made of canvas). Today there are better options, which help transfer the moisture away from the skin and towards outer layers (where it dries much quicker in extreme cold because of the low humidity).
I also wondered if I was alone in thinking that cotton is a bad choice for a base layer in cold conditions, but a quick Google showed others agree.
Finally, I'm conscious that this forum is not only a resource for the more experienced outdoors(wo)man, newcomers also turn up here for advice getting themselves kitted out. So at least for those with little or no experience of cold conditions, I stand by my original one-liner that started this debate:
Have a good weekend!
Full Member
Native
Gents, the debate has been entertaining and informative. Thank you.
To protect yourself, you must protect everything that is not yourself.
Nomad
Nomad
Glad you enjoyed it
Behind it all, there's maybe a little "regional rivalry" and teasing from my sideYou see, Martti lives in our capital city, a place with high buildings, theatres, libraries, smart restaurants and people in suits and smart shoes. I live a few hundred Km north, fewer people, harsher climate and where you only have to remove your puukko when you go to bar
(Waiting for Martti to call me a juntti now!)
Silver Trader
Native
I think the main point in both arguments is that 'cotton when wet' this is the main issue, yes cotton does not perform as well as other 'when' wet. As stated above I have used cotton as a base layer (next to the skin) in sub -25 temps, without any problems, but I may also point out that during this time body temperature was self-regulated with the simple expedia of adding or removing layers as and when needed, even down to base layers. As long as the base layer doesn't get saturated in sweat, it performs its function of creating a barrier between the skin and more rougher and irritating layers without a problem.
Would I use it today? then in truth the answer would be 'No' as there are more efficient and better materials; I tend to use merino for cold weather base layers today, purely because it has become finer weaver that can be worn close to the skin, and provides a less smelly option for extended periods of time.
But even with something like merino this doesn't mean you can go out and get all sweaty, and be happy in the knowledge that your safe from the cold, that is an illusion. Layer management is still a very important part of being in the wild in extreme sub temperatures, basically take it off when your warm, and put it on when your cold, it doesn't get any easier than that.
Settler
Settler
Although you insist it, it still does not make it true.Actually my roots are at the Peräpohjola ("Far North") region but also at Satakunta. Until the recent times there were e.g. reindeers and sheeps, which I helped to take care in my own way, in my extended family's possession. Helsinki is where the jobs, the schools and the money mostly are so I can only be out of the Southern Finland for some weeks at the time.You see, Martti lives in our capital city, a place with high buildings, theatres, libraries, smart restaurants and people in suits and smart shoes. I live a few hundred Km north, fewer people, harsher climate and where you only have to remove your puukko when you go to bar
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Full Member
Native
This bit REALY is interesting!
No one I know has ever mentioned cotton, in any form as being a good or safe idea in arctic winter temps NEXT TO THE SKIN.
I must admit, my experince of cotton at these temps is nil as I have always used wool ( with VERY good effect.)
More please!
( but please don't fall out over it guys, you both make for VERY interesting reading! )
My best.
Cat.
Settler
Settler
Not only the 2nd Division but many other units found cotton flannel underwear to be better than knitted wool ones: "There seems to be no disagreement among the units that flannel underwear is the best underwear during the winter time" (Jaeger Brigade in 1926); "Flannel shirts have proven to be excellent. Often too warm when used with a wool sweater. Despite of the opinions expressed that a linen shirt would be enough or that knitted wool [shirt] would be better, there is general opinion and agreement for flannel shirt. Double-napped flannel is recommended since it will better absorb the sweat and does not feel wet. Although it does dry slower [than single-napped], it does not feel cold" (General Staff in 1926).
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Nomad
Nomad
Absolutely agree Martti
Full Member
Native
Having been obliged to use cotton underwear for winter fellwalking when I was a kid (I couldn't afford to buy specialist gear like base layers), I still think back with horror at those icey days out when I was knackered, but knew that I couldn't stop or I would start to freeze with the saturated cotton against my skin. Since I started work and bought my first proper base layer I've never looked back, and I never wear cotton next to the skin or as a mid later when I'm outdoors unless it's mid summer, our sat around the fire with a drink in my hand.
Research and anecdotal evidence quoted from seventy years ago is not invalid, but neither has it been stood up against modern fabrics and clothing.
Cheers, Michael.
"I want to see the wild country again before I die, and the Mountains" Bilbo Baggins.
Settler
Settler
We could also change our skis to snowmobiles due of their superiority over skis but many of us choose not to do it. I do not feel the need of modernizing all aspects of my life and I like to follow the old ways and at the same time save some money while doing it (oil-based technical textiles are quite expensive nowadays).
When Finns capture a bear, they must hold a feast in the dark,
drinking the health of the bear from its skull, acting and
growling like the bear.
Nomad
Nomad
I had hoped to leave this thread, but...
Are snowmobiles superior? They are noisy, require fuel/servicing and and cost in the thousands. Skiis cost in the low hundreds and I've never broken a pair. A more realistic comparison would be the old fashioned skiis with single cordage bindings:
Or a modern ski...
Which one are you using Martti?
Now be honest, skiis and snowmobiles are hardly comparable to a comparison between cotton underwear (low tens €) and wicking alternatives (also low tens €)....
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