Stick tangs and Full tangs. Advantages and Disadvantages

[Shinken]

For a stick tang to be well made it should have a low hardness in the tang, preferably spring temper. In that state it will be amlost impossible to break.

A full tang where the metal is expossed all around. That kind of tang is very rarely spring temper because if it where it would increase the likely hood of gaps in the scales.

So i could bend the above stick tang in my vice, where the full tang would snap.

Now in use i have no vice for bending so i would be happy to use either, i may seem to have a bias towards a stick tang but my main knife i use at mo is full tang.

It is just in a theoretical debate i think stick tang's are better (the difference however is minimal as nong as they are both sharp at one end)

Here is my user that i use daily at work

[John Fenna]

Definition of full tang:

A full tang means that the grip conforms to the shape and follows the outline of the tang, which is a solid piece of metal (typically steel). It is a single piece of metal from tip to base but the hilt is usually encased. Scales (flat pieces of handle material, like stag, wood, or synthetics) may be affixed to the tang with rivets or pins. Alternately, the tang may be wrapped with braided cord or paracord. Injection-molded rubber (Kraton) or plastic (Zytel) are other grip options. A full tang generally implies a tough and durable sword or knife hilt, provided the steel has been properly heat treated and is not too hard (the harder it is, the more brittle it is). This method of production means that the sword or knife is stronger as it is a solid construction rather than a blade fixed to a base which can come off through wear or contact.

The F1 is in fact a full tang. Visibility of the tang between the scales or handle has absolutely nothing to do with whether its full or stick. Perhaps thats a definition that differs between the UK and North America. The cheapy Mora knife that Mors likes to use is a stick tang, also known as a rat tail tang.

Full tang for me all the time, every time. Should the handle of a stick tang knife break or splinter its practically useless. A full tang could still be used easily.

I was working from the descriptions in "Knives - an illustrated encyclopedia of knives for fighting, hunting and survival" by Pat Farey ...which contains one of my photos (no credit though!)

[Toddy]

Swords often do not have 'full' tangs. Indeed it could be argued that fulltang swords haven't been made since the bronze age when the leaf sword, with the blade, tang and pommel cast in one, was the height of the arms race.

Toddy

[Shinken]

Swords often do not have 'full' tangs. Indeed it could be argued that fulltang swords haven't been made since the bronze age when the leaf sword, with the blade, tang and pommel cast in one, was the height of the arms race

Would they then wrap the handle in something soft? that send lots of shock through the arm if not?

I would imagine casting would be a way to knock them out fast, rather than a way to make a superior tool

[Shinken]

hmmm i wonder if the phrase "knock them out" came from the process of casting in moulds?

[Toddy]

Usually they seem to have added fancy scales. I must admit I had wondered about that shudder up the sword arm....I'm told that fighting styles evolved, with the next major step the Roman Gladius, a short, stabbing sword. I don't know if their cavalry used a scimitar like one though ? Most cavalry swords seem to have swept blades....did the Samurai ride ? Their swords have that long light curved length too ?

Not something I've got much knowledge about tbh, I just mind standing in the armoury store in the basement of the Kelvingrove Museum years ago seeing literally thousands of swords in huge great sliding storage racks and listening in on the discussion on tangs, casting techniques and technical advances in the materials and construction components, and the subsequent changes in fighting styles and battle orders. Fascinating really

cheers,
Toddy

[demographic]

For the stuff most of us have knives for I can't honestly see the how it makes a crap of difference if the knife has a stick tank or full tang, pick one and use it.

[Graham_S]

The longer cavalry sword used by the Romans was the Spatha, as far as I can see it was the same construction as the gladius, and both would typically be a cross between rat tail and enclosed full tang.
I have seen swords that had no tang at all, in fact the blade was riveted to the hilt with no tang at all.

[British Red]

Usually they seem to have added fancy scales. I must admit I had wondered about that shudder up the sword arm....I'm told that fighting styles evolved, with the next major step the Roman Gladius, a short, stabbing sword. I don't know if their cavalry used a scimitar like one though ? Most cavalry swords seem to have swept blades....did the Samurai ride ? Their swords have that long light curved length too ?

Oh yes the Samurai rode.....

The Gladius was more a function of the Roman infantry fighting techniques than an evolution of fabrication....it was unsuited to individual open combat, but suited perfectly to organised and disciplined shield wall fighting they perfected. Without an organised army with standardised equipment and maneuvers it didn't work well. Longswords used by many other nations had far better "reach". But the length needed for reach was impossible to utilise effectively in a tight shield formation. Indeed some references discuss Saxons using a long Seax in the shield wall rather than a "proper" sword - a thrusting rather than slashing weapon.

Its the old "form follows function" logic. A thrusting weapon (think Spanish rapier) tends to be straight. A slashing weapon (sabre) works better thith a curve as this gives a small point of initial contact allowing the force to cut on a small area initially with greater pressure (same force, smaller unit area).

[/arms geek]

[Toddy]

BR you'd have loved the armoury
Ask Robby about us losing him in it. Finally found him standing in classic Highlander pose with an enormous claymore and the biggest damn grin in Christendom on his face

I take what you mean about the shield wall and such like. The schiltroms, that took on the knights charge at Bannockburn and held, were tight packed, close drilled, men carrying pole arms. Some of the ones we used in the reconstruction film were over 4metres long. Once off their horses, the knights armour hindered them and they were hauled down and slaughtered. Considered infra dig, their king complained to the pope.
The classic highlander weaponry was three part. The claymore was bad enough, but the targe in the other hand (think larger version of the buckler) was used to bat the opponents sword out of line and then the dirk held underneath came into play too. Brutally effective in close combat; however, I am minded of the adage,
"He who lives by the sword gets shot by he who doesn't."
Constant innovation and development doesn't mean the weapons of the past can't still be effective, just not all the time.

cheers,
M

[Canadian Kodiak]

Oops. I was mistaken in my earlier post. As it turns out, not all F1 knives are full tang. My apologies. The F1 Micarta is a full tang, in that the tang has no decrease in size from the end of the blade to the back of the handle. The original F1 Pilot Survival knife does have a decrease in size compared to the height of the blade...it, by definition, is not a full tang and is in fact only a broad tang as was stated earlier.

Either way, I still stand by my choice of full tang over stick tang...although, I do own at least 2 stick tang knives. Both are Moras, but I consider them to be more toys than tools. Ironically, in Mors' book even he recommends a full-tang knife despite the fact that he uses a Mora which has a hidden/stick tang. His definition of a full-tang is any tang that extends all the way through the handle. I would tend to disagree with him on this....

I also wanted to say thanks for whomever posted that pdf article on batoning. Thats an interesting read and a good lesson on how to not break your knife. Thanks for the education

[Samon]

Why would you say a Mora knife is more a toy than a tool, Canadian Kodiak?

[sapper1]

The mora is far from a toy,it's possibly the most popular knife used for bushcraft.Then again when ever I buy ANY new kit for shrafting I generally describe it as a new toy.

[John Fenna]

A tang that extends the full length of the handle can be described as full length ...but full tang? - not in my opinion.
Moras are far from toys damn fine tools IMHO!
I just read the PDF on batoning...stick tangs are better for poor technique! WOW!
Good news for the masses as I see a lot of poor technique

[santaman2000]

Are there any famous knives from history which always used a full tang construction?

I ask because I can't think of any.

Billhooks, nessmuks, bowies, swords...all traditionally stick tangs no??

Andy

Yes there have been. The machete; probably the single most prolific knife made. Also many Bowies are full tang though they're probably about 50/50.

[British Red]

BR you'd have loved the armoury
Ask Robby about us losing him in it. Finally found him standing in classic Highlander pose with an enormous claymore and the biggest damn grin in Christendom on his face

I take what you mean about the shield wall and such like. The schiltroms, that took on the knights charge at Bannockburn and held, were tight packed, close drilled, men carrying pole arms. Some of the ones we used in the reconstruction film were over 4metres long. Once off their horses, the knights armour hindered them and they were hauled down and slaughtered. Considered infra dig, their king complained to the pope.
The classic highlander weaponry was three part. The claymore was bad enough, but the targe in the other hand (think larger version of the buckler) was used to bat the opponents sword out of line and then the dirk held underneath came into play too. Brutally effective in close combat; however, I am minded of the adage,
"He who lives by the sword gets shot by he who doesn't."
Constant innovation and development doesn't mean the weapons of the past can't still be effective, just not all the time.

cheers,
M

Broadly similar to Agincourt from the sound of it. The archers often brought the horses down (into the thick mud) and finished off with a blade very similar to the dirk. Pole arms vs cavalry was always a test of nerve - on both sides.

Armouries are my downfall - I've spent a whole day in all of the "Royal Armouries". I love when kind people let me try historic weapons. I own a few but the day when a guy on the next point saw me staring at his (original) Baker rifle and Brown Bess and said "want a go?" will live long in my memory - he quite enjoyed my Lee Enfield - but I definitely felt more privileged

Red

[santaman2000]

...I'm sorry but when did the knife become a splitting wedge? I've never been a fan of the idea...I'd never do it out in the bush, what is the point? It comes back to the age old right tool for the job...at the end of the day the knife is and has always been a cutting/slicing tool. why not cut up a good few sets of feather sticks. - job done...rant off.Andy

+1. Not only the fact that knives are for cutting and slicing rather than chopping and splitting; but really if a piece of wood it small enaough to be split by batonning, then why would I need to make it smaller? Fuzz sticks can be whittled with a pocketknife.

[santaman2000]

I've owned and used both types and the only problems I've had were usually due to poor quality, cheap or shoddy workmanship (occassional stupidity on my part) Either design will work well if used properly and even with a bit of abuse. As I said, I don't baton; I just don't see the point. I do use my knives as prybars occasionally (opening paint cans, supply crates, etc.) I just don't think them as full fledged crowbars to tear apart building framing. I've never had a tang break (of either type); occasionally a blade tip break from prying to close to the tip (the aforementioned stupidity on my part) but never a major blade or tang failure. I also use the buttcap as a hammer for light tasks as Toddy mentioned but have never had any failures from this although I suspect the extra weight in a full tang will simply make it more effective for the weight's sake alone (that or a metal pommeled rat tail) I've also rarely had scales/slabs work loose on my full tangs; only on cheaply made ones that were pinned rather than properly riveted or bolted. I have had the handles work loose on a rat tail (easily corrected corrected by tightening the screw at the pommel if you have the right slotted scewdriver for that type of attachment. For rat tails with other types of attachment (peening, etc.) I've never had any problem. YET!

Get a well made knife from a manufacturer or custom knifesmith with a solid reputation and you should have no problems. At least not if you don't deliberately test to failue; after all anything can be made to break if you really want to.

[Xunil]

Don't know how swords got dragged into this, but since they did, all from my own fair (?!?!?!) hand...

A Greek Hoplite sword hilt that I forged (along with a matching spear) for a museum in America some years ago:



The hilt is iron over bronze over the tang.

One of my Katana blades, and a matching pair of rapier blades (tips then tangs):





I cheated outrageously by running the fuller on the Katana right along the length of the tang - at well over 2,000 layers and all forged with hand held hammers I was knackered enough to justify that decision...

It also changed the balance slightly and I am happy to report that I like it that way

The rapiers are going to be a matched pair (one day) and are forged 5160 with forged in fullers. The hidden tangs are also forged down with the ends reduced and annealed, then threaded. Furniture will be Sterling silver, and I made three matched blades in anticipation of balls-ing one up royally which, so far, I have managed to avoid (famous last words)

And, back to knives, a prototype hidden tang:



Notice how far back the pin is - I usually make my hidden tang knives with the tang between 2/3 to 3/4 the length of the handle material which, I guess, goes a long way to explaining my confidence in my hidden tang knives

A decorative (?!?!?!) dagger that I made in a moment of insanity, hidden tang, with a flared 'pommel' of fileworked steel hanging out the tail end:



Geoff Hague called me a nasty name when he inspected it years ago at the Midland Game Fair, where we were both exhibiting

As I recall it went something along the lines of illegitimate smarty bottom

Two hidden tang swords and one hidden tang fighting knife (apologies for some of the images - they are scans of prints that pre-date digital):



Large hidden tang Damascus Bowie with Sterling Silver guard and Desert Ironwood grip (again, note how far back the retaining pin is in the handle - the tang goes at least another inch or so past the pin making it almost full length):



A matched pair of hidden tang working knives in convex ground A2 (the handle choice was the client's - I want that established here and now )



An unusual hidden tang Damascus knife with two 6mm mosaic pins securing the tang, for no good reason other than the client (me) requested them. I listened to my own request carefully and made what I asked for to avoid customer complaints



Low layer count Damascus hidden tang clip point hunter (like folks used to use before outdoors knives were 'reinvented'):



Hidden tang Damascus (blade and guard) with Bird's Eye Maple handle:





You get the idea by now - in case anyone was left in any doubt, I remain partial to hidden tangs but, at a push, a full tang is acceptable, if hidden is not an option

I'll get my coat...

[British Red]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

I have always fancied a "proper" dirk (bog oak and plain - not one of those piper jobbies with half a canteen of cutlery included).

You rarely see them though . Shame as they seem a very practical knife - like the seax or bowie. Would be delighted if makers here started on making them!

Red

[santaman2000]

Xunil you do beautiful work. Thanks for sharing.

[Toddy]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

I have always fancied a "proper" dirk (bog oak and plain - not one of those piper jobbies with half a canteen of cutlery included).

You rarely see them though . Shame as they seem a very practical knife - like the seax or bowie. Would be delighted if makers here started on making them!

Red

Have a word with Russ or Graham, their's are beautiful. Stuart Mitchell iirc.
M

[Xunil]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

There's just no pleasing some people

[Canadian Kodiak]

Why would you say a Mora knife is more a toy than a tool, Canadian Kodiak?

No offense to anyone meant. But here's my reasoning. First off, I really don't like the hidden rat tail tang. I think its weak and for a survival knife I would definitely choose a full tang, or at least a full length, broad tang over a stick or rat tail tang. I also don't like the general construction of the handle. At the front of the handle is a small, oval cover or ferrule thats made from cheap, thin sheet metal. That accounts to poor construction in my mind. The handles are basic, at best. Mostly just rounded wood or very light-weight, cheap plastic. In addition, their sheathes are practically garbage. Again, just a cheap piece of plastic.

I know lots of guys use these knives. Mors uses them, Cody Lundin uses them...heck, I own at least 2 Mora knives. But I don't use them for any serious bushcraft, survival or camping situations. The Mora knives that I own are the ones I bash against rocks to see if I get sparks...essentially I abuse them because of their poor quality and low cost they can be easily replaced. If I broke my F1 or my A1 or my BG Bushcrafter I would cry, if I broke my Mora I would just spend 15 bucks and get another one. They are, in my opinion, disposable.

This'll probably **** a few people off...especially the fans of the Mora. But remember, its just my opinion.

[Runestone]

But where is the picture of a dirk???

I have always fancied a "proper" dirk (bog oak and plain - not one of those piper jobbies with half a canteen of cutlery included).

You rarely see them though . Shame as they seem a very practical knife - like the seax or bowie. Would be delighted if makers here started on making them!

Red

I have this one at the top for when Im in the kilt...

http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/aca...sh_Knives.html

Granted its not bog oak but the antler is still plain and not the tat you usually see. Only complaiont with it is the sheath as it seems a bit flimsy.

Chris

[demographic]

I have this one at the top for when Im in the kilt...

Honest question but, Why?

[Runestone]

good question and if Im truly honest its simply because I can

When in highland dress Im either at a wedding or a celidh and I have my Sgian Dubh and my dirk. Celidhs up my way are an informal "tak yer ain food and booze" kind of affair. The Sgian Dubh comes in handy from a general knifey point of view (normally slicing limes for Gin and Tonics, cutting cheese etc. at celidhs).
When at a wedding I dont need either really but I still have them as you wouldn't be properly dressed without them

The dirk really is just decorative but I wouldn't be seen dead with a crap steel, fake jewelled, touristy piece.

[mrcharly]

No offense to anyone meant. But here's my reasoning. First off, I really don't like the hidden rat tail tang. I think its weak and for a survival knife I would definitely choose a full tang, or at least a full length, broad tang over a stick or rat tail tang. I also don't like the general construction of the handle. At the front of the handle is a small, oval cover or ferrule thats made from cheap, thin sheet metal. That accounts to poor construction in my mind. The handles are basic, at best. Mostly just rounded wood or very light-weight, cheap plastic. In addition, their sheathes are practically garbage. Again, just a cheap piece of plastic.

You say "cheap" "rounded wood", but have you ever broken one?

I've had a couple of the mora carving knives for years, used them as utility knives around the boats. They've been abused (whittling mild steel wasn't in the design spec) abused and neglected. One knife had the plastic handle (which never fitted my hand well), the other is the wooden one.

I've not broken one yet. Managed to bend the blade battoning when it hit a knot. My ex-wife ruined the edge on one when she left it in the bottom of a dinghy sloshing in salt water.

The sheaf isn't secure. It's ugly. It's very ugly. It is brilliantly quick for putting a knife away and getting it out. Doesn't matter if it gets wet or dirty - give it a rinse and carry on.

I'm not a gentle guy with tools. Drove my dad mad with the number of axe handles I bust. Lost count of the pairs of pliers and cutters I've broken by squeezing too hard.

I've not yet broken a mora knife. Have you?