Stick tangs and Full tangs. Advantages and Disadvantages

[Everything Mac]

Are there any famous knives from history which always used a full tang construction?

I ask because I can't think of any.

Billhooks, nessmuks, bowies, swords...all traditionally stick tangs no??

Andy

[Samon]

http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalB.../6/ZpGcJ3JoFY0


An interesting review of a stick tang helle knife by a knowledgeable chap. Maybe the knife has alot of flaws but cleary its stick tang is a major one.

I'd rather go for a full tang personally, not because I've broken any stick tangs but because I like the weight and sturdy feel. If the scales come of a full tang blade in a 'survival' situation or even a few days camping you can still use it quite fine, (personal experience with cheap knives!) whereas a stick tang would be somewhat less easy.

[Xunil]

http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalB.../6/ZpGcJ3JoFY0


An interesting review of a stick tang helle knife by a knowledgeable chap. Maybe the knife has alot of flaws but cleary its stick tang is a major one.

I'd rather go for a full tang personally, not because I've broken any stick tangs but because I like the weight and sturdy feel. If the scales come of a full tang blade in a 'survival' situation or even a few days camping you can still use it quite fine, (personal experience with cheap knives!) whereas a stick tang would be somewhat less easy.

Interesting that the commentary suggests steering clear of the model itself when an individual example of it failed.

That's a bit 'Don't buy a Ford because mine broke down' for my liking.

Also interesting that it broke under 'a bit of light batoning' which could introduce all kinds of variables.

An interesting article on batoning and how it can easily introduce failure in any knife, depending on how it is done, can be found here: www.barkriverknives.com/docs/batoning.pdf

I am not suggesting the reviewer has over egged the pudding, but unlike most I actually own a Helle Kvernstein, among many other Helle knives, and mine has done an awful lot of work without incident. But then, as all the world knows by now, I don't baton.

Ever.

I have in the past, just to learn good technique, but unless I am caught without the means to efficiently and safely process wood I see no reason to belabour the task by using a knife.

I am not trying to defend Helle knives or be an apologist for them although I admit to being a huge fan of their products, but I do want to take an unbiased view of why and how the knife might have failed and, quite simply, it could very easily have failed due to crappy batoning technique.

I know everyone is going to take the "no, no, no; it can't be that because the NaturalBushcraft folks know their oats" stance but in this instance (as in most breakages) we either have a simple materials failure (which is no reason to write off the model I might add) or we have an introduced failure.

I would recommend that anyone even remotely interested in knives and their use should read that Bark River PDF document - it basically gives clear details on how to break a knife (including some you would assume were tantamount to indestructable - like the Cold Steel Master Hunter and the Bark Rive Rogue) by using sloppy batoning technique which is just one reason why I never baton and why in all my years I have never taught the technique.

Assuming you do read it, go back and look at the YouTube video again. You can also Google for a ton of broken knife pictures in relation to batoning.

Re-examine your conclusions as required.

Hidden tang for me (still)

[Everything Mac]

http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalB.../6/ZpGcJ3JoFY0


An interesting review of a stick tang helle knife by a knowledgeable chap. Maybe the knife has alot of flaws but cleary its stick tang is a major one.

I'd rather go for a full tang personally, not because I've broken any stick tangs but because I like the weight and sturdy feel. If the scales come of a full tang blade in a 'survival' situation or even a few days camping you can still use it quite fine, (personal experience with cheap knives!) whereas a stick tang would be somewhat less easy.

"A bit of light batoning"

ie it broke when I as bashing the cr*p out of it.

I'm sorry but when did the knife become a splitting wedge? I've never been a fan of the idea. I have done it to great success with some pine bought in b&q. But I'd never do it out in the bush, what is the point? It comes back to the age old right tool for the job.

If you insist on batoning then do it with wood which is a suitable size and has straight grain - if you really must to make kindling etc. But at the end of the day the knife is and has always been a cutting/slicing tool. why not cut up a good few sets of feather sticks. - job done.


I'd be fairly willing to bet that knife would not have broken had it been used as it was supposed to be. shock horror.

rant off.

Andy

[Samon]

the guy does bash the blades pretty hard tbh..

I think the handle might have been a loose fit and the tang broke because of inproper shock dispersing when being batoned, but we can't be to sure without the actual video of him f'ing it up.

[British Red]

A good knidfe works. I have three favourite knives - my (Shinken made) puukko, the Stuart Mitchell PFK and my (JoJo made) Nessmuk.

One of each type of tang...all are capable of seriously hard work.

The Puukko is my "on smallholding" carry knife. I have levered open packing cases with it and even planed a stuck barn door. I have hammered forged nails in with the (brass) butt, processed game, sliced free a jammed 8 foot flail cutter....all manner of horrors. It just keeps asking for more. I couldn't break that knife with a club hammer (and yes, I have hit it with one). I f a knife fails, its due to poor heat treatment, materials or design. The tang, if executed by a proper craftsman, will be adequate for the job - hidded, stick, mortice, full, skeleton etc.

Red

[Toddy]

What BR said

I do batton, frequently, it's an excellent method of making not just kindling, but of making splits for carving, and the like.

I like a knife that I can butt end thump too.....great for cracking nuts and not sending the meat flying, or seperating fibres from chaff.

I'm very fond of one of the Helle knives, the little Polar; I have never had the slightest concern about the tang despite a lot of use in some very (wet, muddy, icy, everything from oak to ivy) unfavourable conditions.

cheers,
Toddy

[HillBill]

Mate i am liking this thread, some sense at last

Didn't we have this conversation last year?

Ive actually started making stick tangs now aswell as full tangs. I don't find them more difficult to make either. As long as you pay close attention to the fit of the bolster the rest is nice and straight forward .

In use I don't mind either as long as the blade shape/ thickness is suitable for the job. The extra weight of a full tang doesn't bother me as all the weight sits in the hand anyway.

As I said last year regarding handle faliures. A full tang is more likely to pop it's scales than a stick tang is to break its handle. But the full tang can still be used as a knife if the scales break or pop off, whereas a stick tang faliure is likely to render the knife unusable for anything other than the lightest tasks

[Xunil]

ery fond of one of the Helle knives, the little Polar; I have never had the slightest concern about the tang despite a lot of use in some very (wet, muddy, icy, everything from oak to ivy) unfavourable conditions.

cheers,
Toddy

I have a Helle Polar too (currently on loan to another BCUK member) and I love it to bits. I'm a big bloke but I could easily use it as my main or only working knife.

That said, the laminated blade lends it a level of toughness impossible to equal with a single steel blade...

[sapper1]

I've just bought the Helle kvernstien and had no problems,It's my first stick tang so time will tell.There doesn't seem to be much difference in use so far.

[Graham_S]

Look at the good old red handled mora.
This is the (stick tang) knife that Mors hammers into trees to cut them down.
Seems good enough for me.

[Samon]

I use the new Mora 510 and baton with it for small kindling and all sorts, even some super tough seasoned plum branches that I have in my back garden and don't have a problems or doubts of tang failure.

I do think a stick tang knife with a poorly made handle or room for the tang to bend or be stressed will majorly increase the chances of it snapping.

However, something advertised as a 'bushcraft' knife should be up for common bushcraft practice and any breakages during that show a flaw/weakness in the knife design. All the horror stories I've heard of tang breakage seem to be on Helle knives..maybe the tangs are just too thin?

[sapper1]

Which Helle knives have you heard stories about?I ask because I've only seen the one review where one snapped.

[Samon]

Not sure of models but 3 different people have had tang failure from moderate batoning. I think it was mentioned on here by someone else a few days ago actually..

[sapper1]

So in fact you don't really KNOW of any that have snapped?I wonder how these things get started
Is this another urban myth?Or is there a verifiable history that we can check that shows lots of snapped stick tangs?

[Toddy]

I have a Helle Polar too (currently on loan to another BCUK member) and I love it to bits. I'm a big bloke but I could easily use it as my main or only working knife.

That said, the laminated blade lends it a level of toughness impossible to equal with a single steel blade...

I have the dubious distinction of having delaminated a Helle polar .....replaced in days by Helle, I hasten to add
I have small hands, but my knives get a lot of use one way and another. This was the knife I bought for me

Funnily enough Hoodoo, who must have one of the best knife collections on the planet also likes his Helle polar too I think he uses is as a necker.

cheers,
Toddy

[Tiley]

A bit of a distraction, I admit, but I am tempted to try one of the puukos made by Finnish Wilderness. They're stick tang beasts and certainly look very attractive. Does anyone know anything more about them? Are they good/bad/indifferent? Would I be better off looking at other stick tang producers, like Helle, for instance?

Up until now, I've been a full tang devotee. I like the weight of them which, as someone has already pointed out, is all in the hand anyway, and that inherent sense of strength. I must have been lucky because none of the full tang tools I own has suffered from slab shrinkage or deformation - yet (at this point, my fingers are firmly crossed and I'm grabbing on to any available wood within reach...)! I think that, for the sake of completeness, I ought to try a stick tang but it's down to quality of manufacture, blade length and shape, handle material and so on, hence my enquiry about Finnish Wilderness.

[Siberianfury]

the standard handmade "bushcraft" knife I.E the woodlore is designed to cope with a multitude of tasks which include battoning, carving, game prep ect. the general idea behind it is that if you should be without an axe or larger knife then the knife will be able to cope with any degree of battoning. most of the time i use a leuku or small hatchet, but when my knife is all to hand and i want to split wood i use my knife.

[Samon]

So in fact you don't really KNOW of any that have snapped?I wonder how these things get started
Is this another urban myth?Or is there a verifiable history that we can check that shows lots of snapped stick tangs?

Well ~I DO KNOW~ people who have owned Helle stick tangs and had the tangs break, so no it isn't a urban myth it happens and the ones I've heard of have been Helle branded (not sure what models though).

[Siberianfury]

A bit of a distraction, I admit, but I am tempted to try one of the puukos made by Finnish Wilderness. They're stick tang beasts and certainly look very attractive. Does anyone know anything more about them? Are they good/bad/indifferent? Would I be better off looking at other stick tang producers, like Helle, for instance?

Up until now, I've been a full tang devotee. I like the weight of them which, as someone has already pointed out, is all in the hand anyway, and that inherent sense of strength. I must have been lucky because none of the full tang tools I own has suffered from slab shrinkage or deformation - yet (at this point, my fingers are firmly crossed and I'm grabbing on to any available wood within reach...)! I think that, for the sake of completeness, I ought to try a stick tang but it's down to quality of manufacture, blade length and shape, handle material and so on, hence my enquiry about Finnish Wilderness.

i have owned one and its brilliant, holds a great edge and can cope with battoning, i use the same blades to make my knives and i have never had a hint of a failure, even with heavy abuse.

[Tiley]

Many thanks for that. I feel a Heinnie order coming on...

i have owned one and its brilliant, holds a great edge and can cope with battoning, i use the same blades to make my knives and i have never had a hint of a failure, even with heavy abuse.

[Siberianfury]

Many thanks for that. I feel a Heinnie order coming on...

i would reccomend one with a 95 or 105mm blade, also, when it arrives if you convex the secondary bevel it realy helps with edge holding and cutting ability.

[MSkiba]

I love my F1, full tang. it *looks like it can be battened by a brick, hammered into a wall with end of an axe, and the handle looks like it will not absorb game bacteria, or loose pins / scales.

For that reason, as it happens to be a full tang, I’m a full tang guy


*this may not be the case, full tang may be worst, I reserve the right to refuse to provide any evidence, proof or links to study’s that back my claims

[John Fenna]

I love my F1, full tang. it *looks like it can be battened by a brick, hammered into a wall with end of an axe, and the handle looks like it will not absorb game bacteria, or loose pins / scales.

For that reason, as it happens to be a full tang, I’m a full tang guy


*this may not be the case, full tang may be worst, I reserve the right to refuse to provide any evidence, proof or links to study’s that back my claims

Now we come to definitions... as the steel of the standard F1 is not visible right around the handle is it a Full Tang?
The handle completely encloses the tang - as with a stick tang - and is only visible at the butt - as with a stick tang and the handle is not pinned/riveted to the tanf - as with a stick tang.
Strictly speaking an F1 is a "concealed tang" - as is a stick tang and/or is a Full Length concealed Tang" - as is a Stick Tang .....so the evidence would seem to be that the F1 is a Stick Tang not a Full Tang - albeit a very wide Stick Tang

[Xunil]

... something advertised as a 'bushcraft' knife should be up for common bushcraft practice and any breakages during that show a flaw/weakness in the knife design. All the horror stories I've heard of tang breakage seem to be on Helle knives..maybe the tangs are just too thin?

A very good friend of mine who is an excellent knifemaker was asked for a D2 bushcraft knife hardened to RC62

He advised the customer that D2 at that hardness ought not to be used for batoning.

The customer insisted, and broke the knife within days of receipt, which is a out what I would expect from D2 at such a high hardness.

I am very interested in the assertations of maker error that have been voiced.

Think about it - whether you are a one-man knifemaker or a company like Helle, who wants reports of a failed knife ?

And yet here we are, blaming those responsible for production across the board for failures.

The D2 knife was full tang incidentally.

[Samon]

A very good friend of mine who is an excellent knifemaker was asked for a D2 bushcraft knife hardened to RC62

He advised the customer that D2 at that hardness ought not to be used for batoning.

The customer insisted, and broke the knife within days of receipt, which is a out what I would expect from D2 at such a high hardness.

I am very interested in the assertations of maker error that have been voiced.

Think about it - whether you are a one-man knifemaker or a company like Helle, who wants reports of a failed knife ?

And yet here we are, blaming those responsible for production across the board for failures.

The D2 knife was full tang incidentally.

I think we all know his knife would be too brittle for batoning but that was his design choice and clearly he didn't trust the makers advice but.. popular knife companies selling knives for 'bushcraft' that not always but can and do sometimes break due to standard bushcraft tasks are in my opinion poorly designed and poorly advertised.

Now I'm not digging at Helle, just showing a stick tang video and my associates experiences with Helle stick tangs.

I'm sure the knife in the video is ok, but I don't think it would have broken if it were a full tang contruction, the porous bone handle piece is just nasty though.

[MSkiba]

Now we come to definitions... as the steel of the standard F1 is not visible right around the handle is it a Full Tang?
The handle completely encloses the tang - as with a stick tang - and is only visible at the butt - as with a stick tang and the handle is not pinned/riveted to the tanf - as with a stick tang.
Strictly speaking an F1 is a "concealed tang" - as is a stick tang and/or is a Full Length concealed Tang" - as is a Stick Tang .....so the evidence would seem to be that the F1 is a Stick Tang not a Full Tang - albeit a very wide Stick Tang

Phew! Good job I added the small script! Looks like Im a concealed tang fan after all =)

[Samon]

Now we come to definitions... as the steel of the standard F1 is not visible right around the handle is it a Full Tang?
The handle completely encloses the tang - as with a stick tang - and is only visible at the butt - as with a stick tang and the handle is not pinned/riveted to the tanf - as with a stick tang.
Strictly speaking an F1 is a "concealed tang" - as is a stick tang and/or is a Full Length concealed Tang" - as is a Stick Tang .....so the evidence would seem to be that the F1 is a Stick Tang not a Full Tang - albeit a very wide Stick Tang

The F1 is a 'concealed tang' but can be converted to be a 'full tang' by simpley removing the plastic handle and fitting scales that bare its meat, right?

or.. is the pre-handled F1 of a different handle design to the F1 blank?

I personally wouldn't describe the F1 tang as a 'stick' but I guess it could be defined as such.

This is what the Fallkniven home page details the knife as.

Mod. F1
Total length: 210 mm (8.3")
Blade length: 97 mm (3.8")
Blade thickness: 4.5 mm (0.18"), tapered
Tang: Broad, protruding
Weight (knife): 150 g (6oz)
Steel: Lam. VG10
Blade hardness: 59 HRC
Handle: Thermorun
Sheath: All-covering leather

[John Fenna]

The F1 is a 'concealed tang' but can be converted to be a 'full tang' by simpley removing the plastic handle and fitting scales that bare its meat, right?

or.. is the pre-handled F1 of a different handle design to the F1 blank?

I personally wouldn't describe the F1 tang as a 'stick' but I guess it could be defined as such.

This is what the Fallkniven home page details the knife as.

Mod. F1
Total length: 210 mm (8.3")
Blade length: 97 mm (3.8")
Blade thickness: 4.5 mm (0.18"), tapered
Tang: Broad, protruding
Weight (knife): 150 g (6oz)
Steel: Lam. VG10
Blade hardness: 59 HRC
Handle: Thermorun
Sheath: All-covering leather

The standard F1 is not drilled for pins or rivets and even Fallkniven do not call it Full tang just "broad" ...as in broad stick tang?
If you wanted to drill out the F1 - after peeling it of the plastic push fitted plastic - you could turn it into a full tang....

Just call me "Which Tyler" the leader of the Pedants Revolt!

[Shinken]

If you wanted to drill out the F1 - after peeling it of the plastic push fitted plastic - you could turn it into a full tang....

The handle would be very narrow though