Bushcraft v.s. Survival

[Bushnoob]

Now I know the title of this and the whole thread itself may sound quite novice but I still don't understand much of the contraversy between the two subjects.

I had a look at a survival forums site and when someone brought up bushcraft they all had a rant about it and so on. I'm not going to say that everyone did but there seemed to be a larger majority of them.
Most called bushcraft a commercial excuse to get out into the woods and become clones of Ray m, Bear G, Less S, etc....
Others called it hippi practice, etc...

A quote I read was dicussing how people now are kit-dependant people and when practicing bushcraft it is like learning how to ride a bike without knowing how to walk. Drinking tea whilst around a nice warm campfire.
The quote was, "Survival is sitting out in the cold waiting for rescue, and bushcraft is sitting out in the cold while whittling a spoon and coming home in a body bag"....

I'd like to know what a bushcrafters idea of the difference between survival and bushcraft is. Not terminology, but an opinion.

I'll tell you I think that survival and bushcraft a merge of two similar forms of skills that should form into one. Bushcraft making living in the woods more comfortable and knowledgable, therefore evolving with tool/ natural knowledge, and survival is getting through whatever until you have a chance for escape/ rescue.

What are your opinions on bushcraft v.s. survival and how might one put the practice of both when out in the woods without whittling a spoon or jumping accross a valley. How would one maximize the opprotunity to gain knowledge and to thrive off of nature with bare minimum tools and still have a leisure activity? I do understand using a saw is great but doesn't it make like a bit to easy?

Thanks and please don't think of this as a rant, I'm just very curious to understand the difference and why someone who practice bushcraft may not (survivalist assumption) be able to survive in the woods?

[rik_uk3]

Use the search box, this very question has been asked many times in the past and you will find several hundred replies in the forums backlog.

[AussieVic]

I tend to see bushcraft and survival as two sides of the same dice (and there are a few sides to this one too) !

Survival enthusiasts tend to look at the world and prepare for something going wrong whether its getting lost on a day walk, severe storms or the end of the world.

Bushcrafters tend to be more focused on skills and activities which can be practiced in the bush, often learnt from our ancestors.

The skills learnt in bushcrafting can be directly beneficial to anyone stuck in a survival situation. Some obvious skills which translate nicely between the two are fire lighting and (bush) shelter building. There are lots of examples.
So a bushcrafter should be able to appreciate some survival skills and vice versa.

There are other skills which will lie more clearly as bushcrafter skills or survival skills: wood spirit carving is unlikely to be appreciated by a survivalist, similarly food stockpiling and caching is not so likely to appeal to bushcrafters (as a generalization).

In a sense I see a continuum between bushcraft and survival and I’d say that we all have a spread of interests somewhere along that line and I don’t see a clear demarcation between the two, rather lots of points of crossover. Of course some people’s views will lie at the more extreme ends of the spectrum. I think that the origins of bushcraft were/are to enable people to have survived in the past, but in a modern context we can see the craft /skill aspect superseding the survival need.

Lets see what others think.

[durulz]

I tend to see bushcraft and survival as two sides of the same dice (and there are a few sides to this one too) !

Survival enthusiasts tend to look at the world and prepare for something going wrong whether its getting lost on a day walk, severe storms or the end of the world.

Bushcrafters tend to be more focused on skills and activities which can be practiced in the bush, often learnt from our ancestors.

The skills learnt in bushcrafting can be directly beneficial to anyone stuck in a survival situation. Some obvious skills which translate nicely between the two are fire lighting and (bush) shelter building. There are lots of examples.
So a bushcrafter should be able to appreciate some survival skills and vice versa.

There are other skills which will lie more clearly as bushcrafter skills or survival skills: wood spirit carving is unlikely to be appreciated by a survivalist, similarly food stockpiling and caching is not so likely to appeal to bushcrafters (as a generalization).

In a sense I see a continuum between bushcraft and survival and I’d say that we all have a spread of interests somewhere along that line and I don’t see a clear demarcation between the two, rather lots of points of crossover. Of course some people’s views will lie at the more extreme ends of the spectrum. I think that the origins of bushcraft were/are to enable people to have survived in the past, but in a modern context we can see the craft /skill aspect superseding the survival need.

Lets see what others think.

Yup, that.

[Trango]

Survival is getting out. Bushcraft is getting in.

[Emdiesse]

Survival is getting out. Bushcraft is getting in.

Nice,

Survival, when they find you, broken, beaten, blubbering clinging on to your rusty survival knife and button compass scavenging around for a car battery to make a fire you'll be desperate to leave.

Bushcraft, when they find you sipping pine needle tea out a whittled bowl and stewing some rabbit up they are going to want to stay.

Survival, by very definition, could mean just bearly pulling through.
Bushcraft, is the art of not simply surviving but having an intimate knowledge of the natural world enabling yourself to prosper within it.

I don't intend to slate survival since it's a wonderful thing. I just believe if you know bushcraft, you can also survive; if you can just survive, you don't know bushcraft.

cheers

[Manacles]

Nice,

when they find you, broken, beaten, blubbering clinging on to your rusty survival knife and button compass scavenging around for a car battery to make a fire you'll be desperate to leave.

Ah, you've been to my house I see lol.............seriously though I like your analogy and of course as you so rightly illustrate bushcrafting is a way of living.........

[Nonsuch]

I see bushcraft as a range of traditional camp-craft skills, tacked onto my core outdoor pursuits of canoeing and hill-walking, to make them more enjoyable. I see almost no connection with survival, although in extremis my "bushcraft" skills would be of some use.

[johnnythefox]

we seem to have 2 threads much the same....


you can put yourself in a bushcraft situation for fun and use whatever you want,there are no rules.


if your in a survival situation its not by choice and your trying to stay alive.
lots of kit will help
but your unlikely to have it.what you need then is knowledge and determination.

[trekkingnut]

Now I know the title of this and the whole thread itself may sound quite novice but I still don't understand much of the contraversy between the two subjects.

I had a look at a survival forums site and when someone brought up bushcraft they all had a rant about it and so on. I'm not going to say that everyone did but there seemed to be a larger majority of them.
Most called bushcraft a commercial excuse to get out into the woods and become clones of Ray m, Bear G, Less S, etc....
Others called it hippi practice, etc...

A quote I read was dicussing how people now are kit-dependant people and when practicing bushcraft it is like learning how to ride a bike without knowing how to walk. Drinking tea whilst around a nice warm campfire.
The quote was, "Survival is sitting out in the cold waiting for rescue, and bushcraft is sitting out in the cold while whittling a spoon and coming home in a body bag"....

I'd like to know what a bushcrafters idea of the difference between survival and bushcraft is. Not terminology, but an opinion.

I'll tell you I think that survival and bushcraft a merge of two similar forms of skills that should form into one. Bushcraft making living in the woods more comfortable and knowledgable, therefore evolving with tool/ natural knowledge, and survival is getting through whatever until you have a chance for escape/ rescue.

What are your opinions on bushcraft v.s. survival and how might one put the practice of both when out in the woods without whittling a spoon or jumping accross a valley. How would one maximize the opprotunity to gain knowledge and to thrive off of nature with bare minimum tools and still have a leisure activity? I do understand using a saw is great but doesn't it make like a bit to easy?

Thanks and please don't think of this as a rant, I'm just very curious to understand the difference and why someone who practice bushcraft may not (survivalist assumption) be able to survive in the woods?

Well what a load of garbage. Its ignorance and testosterone that makes people make comments such as these people.

I work in the jungle for god knows how long each year and i do consider survival and bushcraft different things certainly.

But as this hideous and useless person "ray mears" (pfffffft) always says, if you are roughing it, you are doing it wrong. (actual quote)

Bushcraft is how to live as comfortably as possible with as little as possible. i.e finding a balance. In the jungle, this is quite possible with a machete and a pair of trousers if you know what you are doing. In the uk its a little different and extra gear is obviously required. You have to try and find what you dont need, i.e using a tarp instead of a tent... but not put yourself in a position where you get cold or hungry etc....

Survival is when everything else has gone drastically wrong and you have no options left. Its doing whatever you can to stay alive, even if its uncomfortable and unpleasant. i.e if you crash landed in a lake in the middle of canada, youd actually be better off to light a fire and strip naked, then dry your clothes. a huge amount of body heat is lost when conducted via water etc. its not pleasant and certainly something youd never practise....

I agree with you that the skills are definitely interchangeable in a lot of respects and in fact what most people call survival techniques are just normal bushcraft to a lot of us. like what you can and cant eat when you are in the jungle. ill eat more or less anything to substitute what we get given, as do the locals, thats hardly survival.... its just something to pass the time and stop me loosing 15kg every six months and then downing as many £2 meal deals from tescos as i physically can when i get back....

at the end of the day bushcraft should involve comfort and compromise i.e ray mears.

survival should involve doing whatever it takes to make it out alive, dare i mention bear grylls (lets not make this thread about him, but that sort of anything goes attitude (fake or not...))

You dont have to chose if you are a bushcraft wannabe or a survival wannabe, you can tell by what you consider comfort and what lengths you are prepared to go to when you go out and about. In my opinion, the survival people are more likely to get it wrong as they will take less gear.....

[Husky]

Not really adding anything but a different way of saying it but in my wiew survival is doing bushcraft with as much "cheating" as you can. If, in survival, I find a sheet of plastic I will use it. In bushcraft I will try to get the same function from stuff that grows, just because I can.

[Mr Cake]

"It is allowed on all Hands, that the primitive Way of breaking Eggs before we eat them, was upon the larger End: But his present Majesty's Grand-father, while he was a Boy, going to eat an Egg, and breaking it according to the ancient Practice, happened to cut one of his Fingers. Whereupon the Emperor his Father, published an Edict, commanding all his Subjects, upon great Penalties, to break the smaller End of their Eggs. The People so highly resented this Law, that our Histories tell us, there have been six Rebellions raised on that Account;... It is computed that eleven Thousand Persons have, at several Times, suffered Death, rather than submit to break their Eggs at the smaller End. Many hundred large Volumes have been published upon this Controversy: But the Books of the Big-Endians have been long forbidden..."

[Badger90]

Survivalist = A tad paranoid, and needs to prove a point

Bushcrafter = Relaxed about it all, take it as it comes


Me?

Neither, i just enjoy being outside & wouldn't label myself as any of the two

[_mark_]

[Tilia]

imo
bushcraft is a craft/skill
survival is a situation
sleeping in a makeshift camp is bivwak

in all situation you can use your bushcraft to make it more comfortable

also survival is getting out nature
bushcrafters go in to nature

and it often seems to me that "survival" people see nature as a thing to overcome
and "bushcraft" people see nature as something that can provide and help them along

this is off-course just my filosophy

[leon-1]

I think there is a large amount of misinterpretation of what Bushcraft is, a better way of putting the question is what's the difference between wilderness survival skills and wilderness living skills?

Both entities require you to address the principles of survival. There is a crossover on the skill sets. Generally the difference is to do with duration and situation.

Nobody knowingly enters into a true survival situation, but a bushcraft situation can escalate into a survival situation through injury, weather change or any unforeseen event. This normally involves imminent threat to life.

Short term wilderness survival becomes in the long term Wilderness Living, because it ceases to be all about just getting out of there and becomes more of a case of now making the most of things, establishing a routine, addressing water / food requirements and making implements that will make life easier. The longer the duration and the further away from the initial event that you move the more you practice living skills on top of the basic survival skills.

Don't get me wrong when I say basic survival skills, they are essentials. Survival and bushcraft both revolve around levels of knowledge and ingenuity.

Survival has one thing that makes a difference in reality and it doesn't always matter whether you have training or not, invariably the person that can control themselves, conquer their fear and think clearly, calmly and quickly will have a better chance of surviving.

Stuart wrote an article a while ago titled "Survival is all about a good cup of tea", a lot of studies that have been carried out have shown that people who take a step back and take a little time to gather their thoughts and establish a plan of action tend to be the ones that survive short term life threatening situations.

Addressing the priorities of protection, location, water and food will keep you alive, but as soon as possible establish a routine. The longer the routine is established the more skill sets can be included because you will have already established, some form of cutting implement, shelter (which will require maintenance / improvement periodically), casualties will have been addressed, fire should be running more or less continuously for cooking and sterilisation of water, a method of fire management will be established. Ground markers that can be seen from the air and do not require manning should be established, water parties and parties for gathering wood should be established. Once these things have been addressed hunting, gathering and trapping starts.

At this point you cease to just survive as you start to manufacture tools because you have time in the routine to do so, the structure that this provides works like a mental comfort blanket.

Are you now surviving or living?

Is the imminent threat to life over?

Bushcraft / Wilderness Living skills encompass a vast array of skills including those practised in survival, are they the same thing as entities? No they're not, but they are very similar beasties and someone who has gone into great depth on Survival skills will be equally adept in Bushcraft, at the same time someone who has practised the main, basic principles included in both from a bushcraft background will equally be able to survive.

[Trango]

Survivalist = A tad paranoid, and needs to prove a point

Bushcrafter = Relaxed about it all, take it as it comes


Me?

Neither, i just enjoy being outside & wouldn't label myself as any of the two

Right. If I apply so called bushcraft skills then that's merely because I'm lazy and don't want to carry too much. I use sources for water so I don't need to carry liters of water. I carry a stainless steel small kettle so I don't have to carry a burner. I can light in fire in pretty much all conditions as long as I have a knife to prepare the wood a bit. Having a fire allows me to reduce the sleeping bag, or switch to a wool blanket. Tent and fire don't go well so I went for a simple piece of plastic.

All of the above is driven by comfort for me. I've carried & roughed it more than enough back in the days. An innocent bystander may perceive my setup as harsh but I have nowadays more water at my disposal then ever before when I had to carry it all, I have more warmth then when I carried my big military bag, and I don't have to deal with condensation in a tent and stay dry at all times. Comfort. And enjoying the outdoors. Is that bushcraft? I couldn't care less. It enables me.

[leon-1]

Right. If I apply so called bushcraft skills then that's merely because I'm lazy and don't want to carry too much. I use sources for water so I don't need to carry liters of water. I carry a stainless steel small kettle so I don't have to carry a burner. I can light in fire in pretty much all conditions as long as I have a knife to prepare the wood a bit. Having a fire allows me to reduce the sleeping bag, or switch to a wool blanket. Tent and fire don't go well so I went for a simple piece of plastic.

All of the above is driven by comfort for me. I've carried & roughed it more than enough back in the days. An innocent bystander may perceive my setup as harsh but I have nowadays more water at my disposal then ever before when I had to carry it all, I have more warmth then when I carried my big military bag, and I don't have to deal with condensation in a tent and stay dry at all times. Comfort. And enjoying the outdoors. Is that bushcraft? I couldn't care less. It enables me.

Steady there Trango.

Actually what you describe as a setup is very much the same setup as a lot of bushcrafters that I know, as I said before a lot of the skills we use are the same especially when it comes down to the basics and the principles of Survival which both parties use.

[mrcharly]

IMO, a survivalist is a person who trains and prepares themselves for coping with the zombie invasion.

A bushcrafter is a person who trains and prepares themselves for brewing their own beer, in the event that supplies run out.

[Imagedude]

Survivalists have loads of kit in a disused nuclear bunker incase something bad happens. They like to talk about their kit on Interweb forums. Bushcrafters have loads of kit in the spare room and hope to use it when they eventually get a weekend off. They like to talk about kit on Interweb forums.

[suburban bushwacker]

"Survival is sitting out in the cold waiting for rescue, and bushcraft is sitting out in the cold while whittling a spoon and coming home in a body bag" So what would sitting in the cold whittling a spoon waiting to be rescued be called survivalcraft?

Another question, more pressing if you ask me, is

Why do closed minds always seem to come with open mouths?

[Trango]

Steady there Trango.

Actually what you describe as a setup is very much the same setup as a lot of bushcrafters that I know, as I said before a lot of the skills we use are the same especially when it comes down to the basics and the principles of Survival which both parties use.

That was a pro bushcraft comment for the record.

[mountainm]

Which is better - Bushcraft or Survival?
There's only one way to find out....

[andynic]

I put it like this: Bush-craft is something you want to do and Survival is something you have to do.

[Manacles]

Which is better - Bushcraft or Survival?
There's only one way to find out....

Love it............................ ......

[Manacles]

I've been following this thread with interest. It seems to me that bushcraft, survival, survivalist are ultimately all labels. People are simply doing what they are doing and doing it to the best of their abilities. It would perhaps be misguided for anybody to be elitist about their own methods and to denigrate others' methods. The most important aspect is surely to get "out there" and enjoy what remains of the world's natural spaces for what they are...........

[Zingmo]

Once the Zombies have been and gone, I hope I can get away from all the survivalists and find some bushcraft types to hang out with! (They'll probably be in the woods comparing knives, blissfully unaware the zombies have been)

Z (little-endian)

[Trango]

I've been following this thread with interest. It seems to me that bushcraft, survival, survivalist are ultimately all labels. People are simply doing what they are doing and doing it to the best of their abilities. It would perhaps be misguided for anybody to be elitist about their own methods and to denigrate others' methods. The most important aspect is surely to get "out there" and enjoy what remains of the world's natural spaces for what they are...........

Yip exactly my thought as well; survival is a merely a situation, bushcraft are skills. We apply those skills to enjoy the outdoors. What we are labeled is not that relevant; I don't feel the need to be categorized, although I'm definitely not a survivalist, cause that makes it sounds like I'm fighting something, which I'm not, i'm enjoying something. And... I take it most non active folks would label most of us as crazy anyway for "Camping in the snow! Why would you do such a thing?!". But okay, we can all live with labels I suppose, after all we're on a bushcraft forum actively participating aren't we? The point remains, this forum provides excellent advise and insight into sharping those skills that make your outdoors activities that much more enjoyable. It's all good.

[GordonM]

I get put into both categories by other folks. I could give a flip how others classify me! I have taken course work in both areas and use these skills in my outdoor pursuits. However, I have spent a lifetime participating in many different outdoor and outdoor related cultural activities, scoutcraft, camp craft, woodsmanship, camp cooking, infantry field craft, reconnaissance, tracking, fur bearer trapping, hunting, archery, axemanship, backpacking, canoeing, kayaking, mountain biking, camping, land navigation, wood working, wood carving, longhunter reenacting, muzzleloading, Native American crafts and dance, wildlife management, hunter education and other outdoor activities. I have also spent the better part of 25 years working in the parks and recreation maintenance field. Personally, I do not put myself solely into either group and I believe that the skill sets overlap. Many of the skill sets of the outdoor activities I have listed overlap. I look upon my experience and my continued learning as becoming a well rounded outdoorsman. I have done the roughing it bit and I have done the fancy camping bit. I have done the military survival bit and I have done the native skills bit. I like all of it and try to learn and use bits from each. As I age and the body wears down, I am happy to say that I appreciate a warm fire, good camp food and great outdoor fellowship.

Gordy

[Badger90]

Right. If I apply so called bushcraft skills then that's merely because I'm lazy and don't want to carry too much. I use sources for water so I don't need to carry liters of water. I carry a stainless steel small kettle so I don't have to carry a burner. I can light in fire in pretty much all conditions as long as I have a knife to prepare the wood a bit. Having a fire allows me to reduce the sleeping bag, or switch to a wool blanket. Tent and fire don't go well so I went for a simple piece of plastic.

All of the above is driven by comfort for me. I've carried & roughed it more than enough back in the days. An innocent bystander may perceive my setup as harsh but I have nowadays more water at my disposal then ever before when I had to carry it all, I have more warmth then when I carried my big military bag, and I don't have to deal with condensation in a tent and stay dry at all times. Comfort. And enjoying the outdoors. Is that bushcraft? I couldn't care less. It enables me.

I don't quite get the meaning of quoting me then your reply, but the bold writing is what i like to think