Multitool legality question

[Muddypaws]

I have a multitool, a cheap copy of a Leatherman Micra (it has flimsy pliers not scissors). The knife blade on it is non locking, but if you open the knife blade and then close the tool up, then the knife blade cannot fold away. It is by no means rigidly locked, but does this count as a locking blade in the eyes of the law?

[resnikov]

Would you close the tool up to use it with the blade out?
If so I would say whilst not locked well its still locked.

[rik_uk3]

What do you think? Fold the handles and you can't move it at a wild guess means the blade is locked and as it has a means to lock whether you use it or not means it can be classed as a locked blade. Don't carry it in public unless you have a very good reason to; off camping does not count as a reasonable excuse I'm afraid so pack it.

[kirbs]

a lock knife has a mechanism which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released.

In relation to the above i am going to stick my neck out and say it is not a locking blade as the blade is not "locked" per se but merely prevented from closing due to the handle configuration in a similar way to the Svord Peasant not being a lock knife even though when you are holding it the blade is configured such that you cant close it without opening your hand - What i mean is if its fixed/locked then its a lock knife or fixed blade knife, if the blade is merely stopped from closing because of some other reason then the blade is technically not locked/ fixed in place. Might be wrong but i certainly wouldnt be doing you for it !

[rik_uk3]

To much of a grey area to take the risk, you might not nick him but other officers may. I've had mixed responses from two police officers I spoke to this last year or so; one was OK with it and one was NO way. I see no reason for any blade to be on you person when on the streets IMHO.

[Muddypaws]

Thanks for the replies - looks like it might not be worth the risk carrying it. I'll leave it at home. I wanted to have it in my bag that I carry for dog walks, but TBH it might be better getting a cheap pair of pliers to tuck in the bag. I generally always have my SAK with me, so most "just in case" tool needs will be covered.

[Captaincrash]

Being from Canada I carry a leatherman surge and an opinel #8 with me everyday......in my truck I have a kit with my axe and a couple sizeable fixed blades......sorry to rub it in but I cant understand these laws.....what is the official reasoning behind it?

[nitrambur]

What do you need the pliers for when walking your dog?

[Muddypaws]

What do you need the pliers for when walking your dog?

Because pliers are useful for so many things, for example:
Removing fish hooks from my dog (Yes I have had to do this - Damn you careless anglers!)
Urban wombling, if I see some potentially useful item that some thoughtless oik has discarded then pliers may help to liberate the bit that I want.

[mrcharly]

Being from Canada I carry a leatherman surge and an opinel #8 with me everyday......in my truck I have a kit with my axe and a couple sizeable fixed blades......sorry to rub it in but I cant understand these laws.....what is the official reasoning behind it?

The first thing you need to understand is that the UK legal system is a bit different to the States (I dunno about canada). We don't have laws that grant us rights, we have laws that restrict things. These are always woolly and open to interpretation.

So it isn't 'illegal' to carry a whopping great fixed-blade knife. No sirree. You just have to have 'good reason' to have it on your possession - and that 'good reason' interpretation is up to the individual police officer. So a polite non-scruffy individual is unlikely to get in trouble for, say, carrying a 3ft sword and polearm on public transport back from a re-enactment event (as a friend was doing recently - the police were very curious about the polearm).

However, if you are a gobby rude little sod who just about spits on a police officer and you are found with a sharpened toothbrush, you will get arrested.

Why do we have these laws? Because the nasty little violent scrotes who might shoot people if they could get guns, use knives instead. Usually cheap kitchen knives.

[3bears]

granted I live in a rural area, but I've never had any problem carrying one- and its a big ass chunky Leatherman Surge, with locking tools...

[FreddyFish]

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.  The burden of proving the lawful authority lies with the defendant.  A knife which is capable through manufacture to be locked open or has a fixed blade is thus deemed illegal in a public place."

I pretty sure by no manufacturing definition could you say that it is a locking blade.
I would be happy to take that one to court.

[Nonsuch]

Very interesting question. I have a Blacks multi-tool with a very feeble non-locking blade which I acquired specifically to address this issue. With the handles together, the blade folds through almost 90 degrees before it hits the opposite handle.

NS

[Ian S]

[I][COLOR="#2f4f4f"]....A knife which is capable through manufacture to be locked open or has a fixed blade is thus deemed illegal in a public place."

That's a paraphrase of the law and some useful advice, but you have to be careful here. S139 states the folding knife with a blade of less than three inches bit, but does not give a definition of what a folding knife is as compared to a fixed blade - unfortunately this is highly relevant.

There was a very interesting thread on BB that went into great depth, but the crux of the matter was that the prosecuting authorities managed to argue that a knife which could not be folded in one movement was a fixed blade knife. The judges, all the way to the House of Lords, accepted this in, I think, three separate cases where the prosecution argued that a lock knife was a fixed blade. The thinking on BB was that a Leatherman Micra or similar needs two movements to fold the blade - open the handles then close the blade. It could therefore very well fall into the definition of a fixed blade knife.

Maybe one of the BB regulars can remember more about the thread I'm referring to?

It doesn't matter how the manufacturer defines the knife - it matters how a Court of Law defines the knife, and the precedent set by the House of Lords is binding on all English, Welsh and Northern Irish Courts. The High Court of Justiciary in Scotland is the highest Court of Appeal for Scottish Criminal Law cases, and I understand that, generally, it isn't bound by the House of Lords (or now the Supreme Court), but it will carefully consider precedents set by the House of Lords or the Supreme Court.


Cheers

[nitrambur]

Because pliers are useful for so many things, for example:
Removing fish hooks from my dog (Yes I have had to do this - Damn you careless anglers!)
Urban wombling, if I see some potentially useful item that some thoughtless oik has discarded then pliers may help to liberate the bit that I want.

Sounds a fair enough reason to carry a multi-tool to me. It's not one designed to have a locking blade anyway. You might possibly run the risk of a jobs-worth PC taking you down the station, but I suspect the Desk Sergeant will send him away with a flea in his ear for wasting his and your time.

[Chiseller]

very interesting thread......re wondering abaht pliers when walking your dog......if you and yor dog are ever unfortunate enough to be in a situation where the dog has jumped a fence with double wire top.....and has its legs or worse...one leg trapped between the two strands.....then im sure you can imagine the value of having some pliers with their cutting edge.

re law.....its a real sh××ter sometimes. imagine you have your multotool on your belt nearly everyday.....you forget its there.....then one day you get seen wearing it as you've called at a petrol station/mini-mart on your way from field/work to home etc by a bobby with zero appreciation/understanding of rural ways ???
easy done.....harder undone

[robevs73]

I wear a leatherman wave on my belt to work ever day and frequently work for police officers and have never been told off.

[spandit]

I'd warrant the ordinary commuter is unlikely to get searched and thus have to answer these questions in court. Any tradesman would have a good enough excuse for carrying something like that and with the case cited above, I'd say that your argument is fairly solid - especially if there is some history at the vet's with fish hooks in your dog's feet (poor thing). I'm not a lawyer and please don't use my musings as legal advice.

[Welshwizard]

Being from Canada I carry a leatherman surge and an opinel #8 with me everyday......in my truck I have a kit with my axe and a couple sizeable fixed blades......sorry to rub it in but I cant understand these laws.....what is the official reasoning behind it?

Laws were changed regarding legal blade carrying because of youngsters reguarly using them in inner city areas for defence and gang use ,I ride a motorbike and use to find a multitool such as the Gerbers excellent flexible use tools to carry and use in a multitude of situations but since the changes in law I always try Not to carry one although my reasons would be legal its not worth the hassle if stopped .

[santaman2000]

Here's a question; actually one which leads to another as well.

How many of you actually use the knife blade on your multi-tool? Even if you do, don't you actually carry the tool for the pliers and other tools more so than the knife?

If so, then why not cut the knife blade off and render the whole question moot? After all, most threads on here about knives of any kind involve some personal modifications; Why not modify the multi-tool to make it's legality unquestionable?

[bikething]

If so, then why not cut the knife blade off and render the whole question moot?

because then I wouldn't have a knife if I needed one

besides which, I'd be ruining a £100+ piece of kit (Charge Ti)

[santaman2000]

because then I wouldn't have a knife if I needed one

besides which, I'd be ruining a £100+ piece of kit (Charge Ti)

LOL. Obviously I only meant if you don't really use the knife blade on the multi-tool. I rarely ever do. Granted I use a knife often, but I usually have a proper knife as well as the multi-tool.

As for "ruining a 100 pound+ piece of kit"; perhaps, but how would it be any more so than any other knife modded in this forum?

[bikething]

As for "ruining a 100 pound+ piece of kit"; perhaps, but how would it be any more so than any other knife modded in this forum?

because it's removing functionality, rather than adding to it.

In my case, it's a function I use daily (opening letters/boxes, stripping wire). same with the pliers, though more for opening electrical control cabinets when i can't find the proper key. My Leatherman lives on my belt unless I'm going to a pub / restaurant in town.

[sargey]

odd innit? i've had a few conversations with police officers recently on the subject. the general opinion seems to be that a multitool is a tool, they're not bothered, a knife is a knife and they are bothered! YMMV.

cheers, and.

[santaman2000]

because it's removing functionality, rather than adding to it.

In my case, it's a function I use daily (opening letters/boxes, stripping wire). same with the pliers, though more for opening electrical control cabinets when i can't find the proper key. My Leatherman lives on my belt unless I'm going to a pub / restaurant in town.

Granted; in your case it wouldn't be a good idea. However I really doubt if most people actually ever use the knife blade. It is a pretty poor blade after all. Not saying you SHOULD remove it; just that I think for MOST of us it's a redundant feature anyway.

Is it really the only knife you carry?

[bikething]

Is it really the only knife you carry?

yep.. got a SAK Cadet in my desk, and a stanley knife in my toolbox

I used to carry a locking SAK (can't remember the model - sliding catch on the side)... I chose the locking model for safety - I'd had a previous knife fold across my knuckles.

Then I found out about Section 139, so I bought a non-lockinng SAK Huntsman and carried that on my belt..

Then the sheath started to fall apart, so i sent it away to a mate to have a new one made.

While it was away, i carried the Leatherman instead.. and found I was using the pliers a lot to open electrical cabinets, and the little reversible screwdriver for adjusting reed switches... and the bigger reversible posidrive bit for removing the lids from plastic terminal boxes... and so on... So I decided to keep carrying the leatherman as it really was proving to be a "multi-tool"

[santaman2000]

eah, I used my Leatherman a lot too (just not the knife blade) It's odd how well we got along without them before they were introduced then became so dependent on them; or at least I did.