Scouts and knives

[The Green Man]

Can anybody remind me what the rules are about Scouts and knives. I looked on Scoutbase but I couldn't find anything.

YiS

-- Eric

[allanscot]

The only rule in POR is they can’t be worn as part of the uniform unless for religious reasons.

There used to be a knife & axe award you had to pass before you were allowed to use one in Scouts, but i don’t think it still exists.

You can’t ask the kids to buy or carry a knife these days so you will have to supply them. I know some groups that buy moras, store them in a locked box and issue them when needed for an activity.

[KIMBOKO]

There is still an unofficial certificate for ax and knife and there is an ax and saw factsheet but there doesn't appear to be a factsheet about knife safety. The Offensive Weapons Act 1996 is mentioned and there is advice about its implications available from the law department.

[PeterW]

I know some groups that buy moras, store them in a locked box and issue them when needed for an activity.

Thats what we do. we have a few Mora's in an ammo box, and they are used under supervision.

Its usually leaders looking like extra's from a Rambo movie we have problems with... Most Scout campsites are private land, but don't forget the restrictions on blade length etc on public sites.

Also, beware the bit in the law that states about carrying knives on school grounds if your group meets at a school - any blade length is forbidden, even if it is at 3am on a weekend morning in the school holidays...!!!

Cheers

Peter

[Brixton]

, but don't forget the restrictions on blade length etc on public sites.

What is that exactly?
I ask because a colleague of mine was stopped on Blackfriars bridge in t'smoke at 3.00 a.m. after a job and when they found one of those 1 1/2" long swiss army knives on him he was escorted to the local chez plod.

Also in response to original question I would check with your county / district commisioner. Some districts (like mine) have rules that contradict scoutbase's rules on various things.
for example if you move from ASL to SL then according to scoutbase you do not need another CRB here in West Lancs. you do

[TAZ]

I asked HQ the question and received a mail which saidthat all knives should be securely stored and that no knife is part of the uniform.
I had a bit of a run-in with my DESC when he saw my machete he said it was illegal on camp but the info from the info centre at HQ. Give them a bell.

[mbatham]

Perhaps a little irresponsible and old fashioned but once they have learnd to cut themselves with knives, they also learn how not to do it and therefore will be more careful next time.

As an explorer leader, they all seem to be competent with knives when they arrive with us. Perhaps spend an evening on sharp stuff to include axes, knives and saws? I think it is best done on a training weekend as it is all in context. We run over the principles with new explorersto make sure they are all on a par with safety.


Sorry I couldn't be more help.

[MalIrl]

In the SAI (one of the two Irish scouting boides before the merger) the position was that the scouts could carry pocketknives once they had passed the 'Care and safety of knives' section of the Scoutcraft badge (at least, that's my reading of it!) Recommended knife for scouts is the SAK type non-locking folder with relatively short blade. I'd be surprised if the situation was very different in the UK.
We have a patrol going to the National competition ("Phoenix") and they have been explicitly told to have a pocketknife for each scout. On the other hand, at Eurojam they are not allowed to have them (rightly, IMHO).

Slan,
Malachy

[dtalbot]

What is that exactly?
I ask because a colleague of mine was stopped on Blackfriars bridge in t'smoke at 3.00 a.m. after a job and when they found one of those 1 1/2" long swiss army knives on him he was escorted to the local chez plod.

You have to have good reason to be carrying any fixed blade or locking folder (even a micro opinel) or any non locking folder over 3" blade length in a public place. The only thing you can carry as a right (and even then you will be in deep trouble if the boys in blue suspect you are up to no good) is a sub 3" slip joint folder. Having said that though with good reason you can carry pretty much anything, though of course you may have to justify that reason in court. I certainly don't worry about carrying a billhook or two when I'm off to do some hedgelaying and would be sure of my reasons for having a fixed blade on a bushcrafty trip but when in public both would be safley tucked away in my bag, no point attracting attention!
If you want chapter and verse from a lawyer pop over to british blade and ask in the law forum.
Cheers
David

[MalIrl]

HI,
Just walked into the Finnish tent at Eurojam, and one of their activities was carving wooden butter knives using Frost's Vikings. I'll post up some pics when I get home. All the Nordic groups seem to allow their scouts to have fixed blades: Helle even have dedicated scout models. (I have an old one and yesterday I saw the updated one that the Norwegian scouts are using.)
It's a pity we can't be a bit more flexible with our own scouts over here (admittedly Irish and UK knife law is a sticking point!) My scouts all sat down and happily carved away without any evidence of dangerous usage. It was a great project for understanding woodgrain and the importance of a sharp knife.

Slan
Mal

[andyn]

In terms of laws this article from the bushcraftuk article section may help clarify when knives will be considered illegal.

http://www.bushcraftuk.co.uk/articles/knife_law.html

[Zodiak]

HI,
Just walked into the Finnish tent at Eurojam, and one of their activities was carving wooden butter knives using Frost's Vikings.

It may have been them that wanted an axe throwing contest!

I have to admit that I fancied giving it a go, its big in Scandanavia, Gransfors even have recent national champions listed in their freebie axe book

SBR

[Jon Mawer]

As an explorer scout, we are allowed to carry whatever we feel we need. Most people only have an SAK, but my friend and I have been alowed to carry sheath knives on our belts, unless we are mingling with the public. Our leaders all carry SAK's or leathermans, and we have never had any problems whatsoever. I have even taken my GB small forext axe to meets, and it has gone down really well, with loads of nice comments about it.

[ilan]

Of course the law applies with the the use of sheath knives and as many scout camp sites have either public foot paths near or through them they are public places our own group does not allow any personal knives even at camp but we have a box of assorted knives to use under supervision Explorer scouts are warned of the risk of carring a knife and i usualy suggest an old army folding knife . If they are away from the public and other scouts etc then they use a frosts mora but its not worn on a belt in case its forgotten on a trip to a tuck shop or public place . Unfortunatly there is a strong anti knife feeling and any one with a knife on them is at serious risk of being made a scape goat .

[useless]

We are running a bushcraft course at a local Youth Centre, based on a school site. Luckily we have the expertise of Garrick (from Forest Knights) and occaisionaly Wayne (from the same) to run the course. At each session young people are given Frost Mora to use, which are locked away after use. I sought out the permission of the school's head teacher, and advised the local police of what we are doing. Both seemed happy, and particularly pleased taht we spent a lot of effort refering to the knives as tools rather than weapons. The young people responded well to this also.

However, I suspect a winning factor for them was that I had carried out a proper risk assessment. I can send a copy of this to anyone who may be interested.

Groovy

Paul

[miniac]

How did that go, fella?

I ran a skill day for some explorers at a local campsite covering wood collection ,fire lighting, a little bit of cooking, and axe saw and knife. we have some mora's recently bought, the parents had to sign a consent form which we made up clearly stating that we will be using some sharp tools. No one knocked us back so the lads made short stakes for a tarp or tent pegs, attempted some feather sticks, some supports for the green stick cooking impliment.

Alot of big smiles from the lads and lass's and a ear ache for me "when we going again"

My DESL was more than happy making pointy sticks!!

[crazydave]

my rule was that if they had one then I would teach them how to use it properly, if they didn't and it was ok with mum and pa then I would even source one for them - all my kids had sak's or multitools and knew how to use my knives, kukri's or machete's

the PC crowd keep wrecking it for us which is why I stopped last year and gave my warrant back.

it used to be that on scout sites side arms may be worn, now thats getting trickier by the day. if kid dont cut themselves then they wont respect any blade - just like fire, you can mother them too much.

fire and knives are fascinating for kids (and adults) but they need to learn that they're both tools rather than toys.

[Zodiak]

I let my unit carry what they bring to camp, most have a SAK, some Moras, and one has a rather nice custom job that his Grandad bought back from Germany a few years back.

I took my japenese water stones to camp this year and spent way too much time sharpening knives for the troop that we went with and most of my unit learnt to do their's themselves, although none of them could be bothered to strop them afterwards

Silly people, they will learn

[explorerscout]

We allow are "young people", swiss army style only, but supply sharp hand axe's that will do nearly everything, including tea spoon making.

Just a point as PeterW says the leaders are the challenge
Yes me included with my khukri.

[mikesknives]

remember there is also an exemption on age restrition, to enable young people to buy their own small folding knife.

[Greg]

Gone are the days of trust and good old common sense, if only we could turn back the pages and tell the PC brigade where to stick their ideas!!!

[woodwalker]

We have never had any problems using moras, just handing them out at when required in the session. After a couple of sessions instilling the basics of respecting the tools and their proper use, the Scouts are now fantastic and in fact the only people whoever seem to cut themselves on camps or sessions are the Leaders!

[FGYT]

its sad the state we are in Knife and axe training and use of them are a part of scouting and camping all we seem to have done is mystify and Taboo a tool


found this however

http://www.swiss-army-knife-wenger.co.uk/swiss_army_knives_scout.html



it is locking blade and must have been sanctioned by the scouts

[Big John]

I organised a bulk purchase of clippers for our Explorers, sent home a letter for the parents to sign explaining why we thought they were good knives and said we wouldn't let them have them until they'd done some training. We also gave the parents the option of us giving the knife directly to them instead of the kids - a couple went for that, most of them let the Explorers take them.

This summer camp most of them bought their clippers along and had them on their belt for most of the time they were onsite - as did the leaders. In our opinion they have to learn how to use them properly and we only had one minor cut all week (oh, two if you include leaders - ) which I thought was pretty good.

The only time we had an issue was when I went up to instruct some Guides on the rifle range, I still had my knife on and one of the crew objected - wrongly saying that it was now 'Scout rules' that knives can only be worn on your own pitch - not around site.

I've since checked with the info center and they emailed me an apparently un-published fact sheet saying that they can be carried when there is cause to do so - camping being mentioned. When I specifically asked about carrying them around site they said that it would be acceptable when needed for a particular activity "if for instance a Scout or Explorer Scout was out in the forest and knew that they would need their knives then this would be appropriate for them to have the knives on them".

[jojo]

I watched Tribe, last night. There was an occasion when a group of people were using knives to peel the skins off some root plants, and there was a young kiddy, must have been well under the age of ten? and he was handling with confidence, a knife which had a rather large blade. These people taught the use of what in this country are now deemed dangerous weapons to their children. No doubt the children grew to respect the knife for what it is: an indispensable tool.

No doubt also some in the PC brigade, if they bothered watching the program, were tut-tutting at the irresponsibilty of the parents.

I am not involved in the scouts, but I admire the people who still try to inspire the kids despite all the obstacles this society now put in the way.

[spamel]

Probablt mans' oldest tool, other than a good hefty rock or stick, and the right to carry is taken away in the blink of an eye. It's not fun checking that the small knife I carry meets legislation because a few people have spoilt it for the rest of us.

[brancho]

I have bought Moras for our Troop and we have used them a few times without any cuts so far. I have Scouts from various Troops and even some Japanese scouts carving with them my ACC liked the idea as did my DC in the end.

It was scary teaching Japanese scouts who claimed not to understand English how to carve but it went well and they seemed to enjoy it.

The first thing I say to my Scouts is if you misbehave when using a knife you waon't be allowed to use it and they know I meen it.

[Silverback]

I did a day of firecraft demo (Bowdrill, charcloth and cramp ball) this year for the Beavers, Scouts and Explorers (200 in all) and had an array of knives about my person all of which I was using at some point during the demo. I explained the value of the knife as a tool and mixed a bit of knife safety in with the demo. The whole day was fantastic and it was a close run thing I reckon as to who enjoyed it more - the demonstrator or the audience

I have had requests for demo's for two other groups for later this year based on word of mouth from people that attended the day

I don't like to generalise but I find kids that take part in Beavers right through to Explorers a joy to be around as they all seem to still display the decent qualities our useless pc society is doing its utmost to destroy. My little lad went to camp last year for the first time and was quite nervous as he didn't really know what to expect. Within minutes of arriving, a group of lads of varying ages had taken him under their wing and that was the last I saw of him for the rest of the day

[nick fred]

I wonder if anyone can help me; I was observed teaching a day in the wilderness here at my outdoor centre yesterday by three head teachers.
The day can take any form, but we follow a stream down to the sea where we make shelters and fires etc. I introduce my groups to the skill of using fire steels etc. the children are mostly Years 5 and 6, 10 - 11 year olds . Sometimes I make feather sticks and use the knife as an axe to split wood down .I always include a bit about how important it is to see the knife being used as a real tool and not a weapon as many young people view knives today. I don't always include a knife in the demo, but sometimes it just seems appropriate or I need to split big or wet wood to burn, instead of using paper wood i have bought with me!
I have only had positive feedback from visiting teachers who have seen the value a) in learning a new skill and b) the value of witnessing a knife being used for what it was intended.
Most have seen Ray Mears on telly and I have never had boys drool at the knife and want to hold, it's just a tool I use.
Having said all that, the Heads , thought the knife might just encourage the children to go home and get knives and use them as a weapon The knife is the Bearclaw DFK, so not big, i really disagreed with the heads. I said i had had no negative only very feedback and had run many bushcraft courses both for primary school children, secondary children and 'youth at risk'
I was by far the most experinced out of us as the others only had limited knowledge of knives and their uses in the field. One of them suggeted I use an axe instead!
So, I believe firmly in the positives of showing youth the proper way to view knives, and how useful a tool they can be.

I was wondering whether you might have any ideas as to whether there is any literature on this subject or whether there is any anecdotal evidence to suggest the positives or indeed the negatives of using knives in this way with young students.
I would really grateful if you could give me yours or any others views (or point me in the right direction) on this subject, as I feel strongly about the postives, and feel it would be a loss to the whole experience to shy away from this topic.
Hoping you can help
cheers

[brancho]

Nick
As long as you are teaching that a knife is tool what is the problem as you can see from this thread I have tought kids to use knives for carving wood and incidently soap.

Could you teach kids to cook without a knife?

kEEP IT UP YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG