knife law question (I know, I'm sorry)

[catweasel]

right, near work the is a stand of 7 or 8 big silver birch trees which i want to tap this spring, now my problem these are on public land very close to a main road (which has the local cop-shop on it) after nearly cutting my finger off with a folding pen knife (legal carry size) i want to know if its legal for me to use my mora 2000?


or am i going to get nicked?



cheers CW

[Adze]

after nearly cutting my finger off with a folding pen knife <snip>

or am i going to get nicked?

If that was deliberate... have a gold star. If not... have you considered politics? Or possibly the clergy?

[British Red]

Provided you have permission from the owner of the trees and are carrying tools to do what you have permission to do, you shouldn't have a problem.

[FreddyFish]

Questions going through the coppers mind....

Does THIS person have permission to use land with THIS knife for THIS purpose? (and can you prove it)

If the answer is no to any part then get ready for the silver bracelets.

[dasy2k1]

As far as i can make out if you have the permission to tap the trees from whoever owns them then you would certainly have a defense against a s139 charge. without this It would depend much on whoever was stopping you and the context of this,

I would hardly think it was likley you would be stopped and if you were you are more likly to be accused of vandalism (by some plod who thinks tapping a birch is damaging it) than knife crime!

[catweasel]

Questions going through the coppers mind....

Does THIS person have permission to use land with THIS knife for THIS purpose? (and can you prove it)

actualy thats a grey area the trees form a boundary between private property and common land, i have permission for the private (i work there) but im not sure about the law on common land (normaly i dont tap these trees but a fair number of my regular trees have been felled)



cheers CW

[FreddyFish]

actualy thats a grey area the trees form a boundary between private property and common land, i have permission for the private (i work there) but im not sure about the law on common land (normaly i dont tap these trees but a fair number of my regular trees have been felled)



cheers CW

Well the law is pretty black and white.

If it's over a 3" cutting edge, and is fixed or locks. It's illegal in a public place.

A public place is pretty much anywhere apart from inside your house.

But having said that, a lot of how the law is enforced is down to the officer on the ground.

So you pays ur money and takes ur chances

[poddle]

Use a battery drill instead, that'll stuff em.
That or an auger.

[catweasel]

i think i'd might be better off sticking to me folder (the one that tryed to eat my hand)


BTW does anyone know if its bad luck to re-grind a broken blade? because that would explain a lot


cheers CW

[Adze]

Well the law is pretty black and white.

If it's over a 3" cutting edge, and is fixed or locks. It's illegal in a public place.

A public place is pretty much anywhere apart from inside your house.

But having said that, a lot of how the law is enforced is down to the officer on the ground.

So you pays ur money and takes ur chances

No it isn't.

139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.
(8) This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done before it comes into force.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988...19880033_en_14

Thou shalt have a good reason for said carry or it is illegal. Here endeth the lesson

[Draven]

I don't think the knife is the problem. As stated, the law allows for a fixed blade or lock knife with good reason.

I think a greater problem would be the tapping itself. Given the fact that its by a main road, you must ask yourself: What do you think a copper would do if he saw you banging your knife into a tree?

Remember that there is no public land in the UK, it's all owned by a person or group AFAIK.

I personally wouldn't bother. If you're going to do something of questionable legality, it's arguable that by a main road is the best place to do it

[FreddyFish]

Adze, I know there are some reasons to get away with it but the original question was
'am I going to get nicked'
and as you have quoted 'It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence'
So if it is a defence for something you have been charged with...... that means your nicked.

[Adze]

My reply was solely in response to this:

Well the law is pretty black and white.

If it's over a 3" cutting edge, and is fixed or locks. It's illegal in a public place.

Which is wrong. It's not illegal to carry or use in a public place provided you have a legitimate and justifiable reason.

The police, generally, don't waste all their time or resources handing no brainers to the CPS to throw out.

If they think there's a likelihood of a successful prosecution then they'll probably arrest you. If you supply them with a good enough reason (read that as, the officer believes it will convince a magistrate) for the carry, at the time, in a polite manner then they're not going to arrest you because it's a pointless waste of their time.

It's not about being able 'to get away with it' that implies some wrongdoing. If you have a justifiable reason you can carry a broad sword down Oxford St. I can't imagine what that reason would be, but there are myriad reasons for a locking folder or a fixed bladed knife be they work, camping, having a picnic or tapping trees with permission from the land owner.

However, take this:

Or this:



...to the chippy/pub/bingo hall/tesco's or anywhere in public come to that WITHOUT a good reason and you'll likely face arrest.

[FreddyFish]

Ok Sure... but you got to admit taking this into a chippy would be jusifiable cos' they never spread the butter on the baps very well

[Adze]

That's true... didn't think of that. I suppose prior knowledge of a dodgy bit of carpentry on a bar stool might be justification enough to take the screwdriver to the pub.

In fact... there's some sort of policing precedent there I seem to recall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH1SuXaS_Qg

[HillBill]

Don't get too woried with knife laws. They are very sensible and not restrictive at all for legitimate users.

You dont want to tap a birch with a knife anyway, thats just for checking if the saps flowing. Get yourself an auger or big drill bit on a hand powered drill and drill a hole. No bother then, if the trees are on public land dont even worry about it. There is no law or regulation that says you cant do it. If theres no law saying no, then its a big YES.

[Draven]

Don't get too woried with knife laws. They are very sensible and not restrictive at all for legitimate users.

I agree with regards to the ability to carry whatever you need to carry at the time - implementation is something else entirely, for example tradesmen getting hassled by a copper for wearing their tool belt with stanley knife on their lunch break.

The EDC laws are just rubbish IMO and very restrictive. The 3" bit doesn't bother me a great deal - the non-locking does.

You dont want to tap a birch with a knife anyway, thats just for checking if the saps flowing. Get yourself an auger or big drill bit on a hand powered drill and drill a hole. No bother then, if the trees are on public land dont even worry about it. There is no law or regulation that says you cant do it. If theres no law saying no, then its a big YES.

Not necessarily, there's no law that specifically mentions breaking a window but it's still covered under criminal damages - as would smashing a paving slab with a sledge or using your hacksaw on a signpost. I don't personally think that birch tapping should be considered criminal damage unless the person doing it is wildly inept, but it's something to be mindful of with a justice system that has no common sense to speak of.

[HillBill]

I agree with regards to the ability to carry whatever you need to carry at the time - implementation is something else entirely, for example tradesmen getting hassled by a copper for wearing their tool belt with stanley knife on their lunch break.

The EDC laws are just rubbish IMO and very restrictive. The 3" bit doesn't bother me a great deal - the non-locking does.


Not necessarily, there's no law that specifically mentions breaking a window but it's still covered under criminal damages - as would smashing a paving slab with a sledge or using your hacksaw on a signpost. I don't personally think that birch tapping should be considered criminal damage unless the person doing it is wildly inept, but it's something to be mindful of with a justice system that has no common sense to speak of.

Birch trees are classed as weeds

[Draven]

Birch trees are classed as weeds

Really!? Hell I'll take them then

[HillBill]

Really!? Hell I'll take them then

IIRC they are because the small seeds spread everywhere and its a fast grower, they are classed as a pest species.

[catweasel]

cheers for the answers


im not using the non-locker again it doesnt seam to work for me (i didn't obay any of the superstions with it)


any one know if the law sees lockers as worse than fixed blades due to the amount of chav's carrying them?

You dont want to tap a birch with a knife anyway

i normally use the 'make a cut and stick a twig in' method you dont get as much but it does less damage




cheers CW