woods - eating and cooking

[alecja]

My job involves testing people for asthma symptoms and dermatitis caused by woodworking (amongst other things).

The main risks are from inhalation of dust and contact with sap, but on industrial, rather than bushcraft levels!

Here's a bit of information from the HSE:

wood toxicity

[stanaway]

Alder FS
Apple (FS) (CD)
Ash (FS) (CD)
Beech (FS) (CD)
Birch (FS) (CD)
Blackthorn
Cedar Red (CD) (but some are alergic to it incontact with food)
Cherry (FS)
Chestnut (Sweet) (FS) (CD)
Douglas Fir
Elder
Elm
Field Maple (FS) (CD)
Fir (FS) (CD)
Hawthorn
Hazel CD
Holly(TX)
Hornbeam
Horse Chestnut
Laburnam (TX)
Larch
Laurel
Lime FS CD
Norway Maple (FS) (CD)
Oak (FS) (CD)
Pear (FS) (CD)
Pine (FS) (CD)
Plane
Poplar
Rowan (FS)
Rhododrendron (POSS TX)
Spruce (FS) (CD)
Sycamore (FS) (CD)
Walnut FS
Whitebeam
Willow (FS) (CD) (Note bark contains Salicilic Acid: Aspirin)
Yew TX

[Cyclingrelf]

Oops - reading this thread again, it looks like I must have left it open on my computer before answering, as I missed loads of posts. Have amalgamated my effort with the most recent and tightened up the details about willow bark:

Alder FS CD - good flavour for smoking meats
Apple (FS) (CD) - good flavour for smoking meats
Ash (FS) (CD)
Beech (FS) (CD)
Birch (FS) (CD)
Blackthorn FS CD
Cedar Red (CD) (but some are alergic to it incontact with food)
Cherry (FS) CD - good flavour for smoking meats
Chestnut (Sweet) (FS) (CD)
Douglas Fir
Elder All green parts are toxic to ingest.
Elm
Field Maple (FS) (CD)
Fir (FS) (CD)
Hawthorn FS CD
Hazel CD
Holly (TX)
Hornbeam
Horse Chestnut CD
Laburnam (TX)
Larch
Laurel
Lime FS CD
Norway Maple (FS) (CD)
Oak (FS) (CD) - good flavour for smoking meats
Pear (FS) (CD) - good flavour for smoking meats
Pine (FS) (CD)
Plane
Poplar
Rowan (FS) CD
Rhododrendron (POSS TX)
Spruce (FS) (CD)
Sycamore (FS) (CD)
Walnut FS CD - good flavour for smoking meats
Whitebeam
Willow (FS) (CD) Note bark contains salicin, which metabolises to salicylic acid a.k.a. salicylate, the basis for Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid). This has a bitter flavour when ingested. Some people use green willow to smoke meat.
Yew TX

[Cyclingrelf]

p.s. Welcome to BCUK stanaway! Good to have you here

[Laughoutlouder]

Brilliant thread!

Laughoutlouder, I hope you don't see this as nit-picking but the site http://www.sdturtle.org/public_docum...ThatPoison.pdf , although useful, gives information which is unquantified or unqualified in that many of our foodstuffs contain toxins in infinitesimal amounts. It is also an American site so, where scientific names are not given, common names may refer to a different genus from those used in Britain.

It's not nit-picking. It's being correct!

What about robinia? Robinia pseudoacacia. Have heard the wood is poisonous? I'm unsure. It is as hard as a bloody rock and chipped my axe anyway.

Is ash, Fraxinus excelsior safe to bbq over?

Can I safely tap any member of the Acer genus?

[bushwacker bob]

Laurel is toxic.
Elm is safe. (cold flame tho')

[robin wood]

Robin:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/283/6301/1220-a
Dont think I get £10 pounds for it though as its not a study, I'm gonna keep looking though! [/url]

Good effort but no test result on the wood. We all know folk get sick from eating seeds and I have test results showing amount of toxin in seeds, leaves, flowers and bark. £10 still up for grabs for a test result for the wood.

Well I claim the £10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laburnum

If it's on wikipedia that's Gospel, isn't it?

As above just saying the whole tree is poisonous does not count, it is easy to say but without referencing a test result it is pure guesswork.

Any idea of somewhere to start where I could find out Robin? I only ask because I acquired a billet of rhody recently and it carves beautifully - cheddar is a close approximation - and once dried it's lovely and light but still seems quite strong for.

Email Kew,

they are very good and sent me a huge amount of info on laburnum (but could not find a test result)

I see we have a TX on holly now can anyone point me to a test result or a decent academic source showing the wood as toxic?

As I said before other than yew I would give a don't know to Rhody and Laurel all the rest are both FS and CD. The small concern expressed re tannin in hornbeam is nothing to worry about, oak has much more and it is added to wine, stewed tea also contains tannin.

I personally think a more useful list would be which woods are good for these various purposes. Poplar for instance is excellent wood to carve a quick cooking or serving spoon as is willow. Pine whilst food safe would be one of the last things I'd choose for a utensil.

[jdlenton]

a more useful list would be which woods are good for these various purposes. Poplar for instance is excellent wood to carve a quick cooking or serving spoon as is willow. Pine whilst food safe would be one of the last things I'd choose for a utensil.

now there is a fantastic idea put in use for bow and hand drill as well and we could really have a good reference table

categories for a new list might include

good for carving
good for using as a utensil
good for hot fire boiling
good for hot coals
good for use in bow drill
good use in hand drill
can we put in toxicity if not anecdotal ?


what do you recon ?

[heath]

P.36 of Langsner's 'Green Woodworking' puts Rhododendron in the 'excellent' column of his table of 'woods free from taste and odour when dry'.

[jambowl]

Some species of Rhododendron are poisonous to grazing animals. These Rhododendrons have a toxin called grayanotoxin in their pollen and nectar. Rhododendron is extremely toxic to horses.

Found this info on Wiki. Nothing about wood and bark.

[Cyclingrelf]

Found this information on Holly
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/plant/ilexaqui.htm

All parts of the plant contain active principles (F. Alikaridis, 1987). Ilex aquifolium contains several toxins: saponin, phenolic compounds, terpenoides, sterols, alkaloids, anthocyanines (Thomas, 1980, Alikaridis 1987).

Phenolic derivatives: vanillic acid, p-hydroxybenzoic acid (fruit); Anthocyanines: cyanidin-3-xylosylglucoside (fruit); pelargonidin-3-glucoside (fruit); Flavonoids: quercetin-3-rutinoside (leaves); Terpenoids: alpha-amyrin (bark, leaves, fruit); ursolic acid (leaves, fruit); oleanolic acid (leaves); ilex lactone (fruit); Sterols: ergosterol (leaves); beta-sitosterol (fruit); Alkaloids: theobromine; Fatty acids: pentadecanoic acid (leaves); palmitic acid (leaves); stearic acid (leaves); arachidic acid (leaves); oleic acid (leaves); linolenic acid (leaves); Alkanes: (leaves, fruit) Cyanogenic glucosides: 2 beta-D-glucopyranosyloxy-p-hydroxy-6,7-dihydromande-lonitrile (fruit, leaves, bark). (Alikaridis, 1987; Budzikiewicz, 1979; Willems, 1988)

[robin wood]

Found this information on Holly
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/plant/ilexaqui.htm

All parts of the plant contain active principles

Excellent finally something like a scientific report. Still no test result or ref to one showing presence of toxin in wood and below the comment saying toxin occurs in all parts we have

3.2 Poisonous parts of the plant
Leaves, bark, berries contain active principles; no information available on roots.

Among 46 children who had ingested berries of Ilex aquifolium,
only three showed symptoms:

10 month-old child hypersalivation
17 month-old child vomiting and diarrhoea
2 year-old child vomiting and abdominal cramps

Intoxications are almost exclusively seen in children after
ingestion of berries from Ilex aquifolium cultivated in parks,
gardens, or when branches with berries are used ornamentally in
homes.

7.2 Toxicity

7.2.1 Human data

7.2.1.1 Adults

No data available.

7.2.1.2 Children

3 - 5 berries may cause gastrointestinal symptoms.
Although 20 to 30 berries are estimated to be a
"lethal dose" no recent references or cases confirm
this data.

This is a whole different level of toxicity to yew say and I personally am totally happy eating from a holly spoon.

[Colin.W]

What about robinia? Robinia pseudoacacia. Have heard the wood is poisonous? I'm unsure. It is as hard as a bloody rock and chipped my axe anyway.

The hardest uk wood I've worked was holm oak. I turned a block of heartwood from a fairly fresh felld tree, lovely grain and finish on it but it was hard work

[Laughoutlouder]

Thanks Colin.W,
think the Robinia was fresh too.

So I have a question/couple of questions for you guys I just cant find the answers to.......

Can you bbq over elder when green?
Can you bbq over elder when dead and dry?

For a little more info see;
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r87y790brkc6gle4/

This site also seems quite robust with some references I must have a look at when I get a chance;
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...ent-elder.html

So parts of elder contain toxins. I cant find out whether burnging elder will transfer these to food? If the toxins are reduced or absent when wood is dry and dead?

Little help please,

LOL

[Laughoutlouder]

Come on guys and girls.
I need help.
Been searching and cant find the info to make the leap between toxicology and bbq!

Need the voices of experience.....

[littlebiglane]

I believe that some species are also more prone to accumulating heavy metals.....

[robin wood]

Come on guys and girls.
I need help.
Been searching and cant find the info to make the leap between toxicology and bbq!

Need the voices of experience.....

I don't have any toxicology info to back this up but from the little anecdotal stuff I read it appears anything involving smoke, smoked foods etc will be to a greater or lesser degree carcinogenic. The quantities of toxin in any British wood other than yew are sufficiently small that you would need to eat a very large quantity of the wood to do yourself any harm. If you inhale the smoke from an elder fire I am sure it would do you no good but that would not be down to any toxin in the wood, just the fact that inhaling smoke is bad for you.

I personally would be entirely happy eating food cooked on any BBQ wood including yew. I don't know if the taxin in yew is flammable or if there is any chance of it traveling in the smoke and depositing itself still in toxic condition on the food but even if it was capable of the latter the quantities we are talking about are not going to be at a level worth worrying about. If you live in a house with UPVC double glazing, open new plastic packaging or paint your house with gloss paint the off-gassing from all that, all day every day and night is (in my opinion) much more likely to do you damage than any level of toxin you are likely to ingest from food cooked over any particular type of wood on a BBQ. Life is not risk free but we live with levels of risk and toxin around us all the time.

[Laughoutlouder]

Thanks Robin,

thats helpful. I tend to go off on these little tangents, keeps it interesting though. Burdock is the latest one. Why does it help with nettle stings? It is basic which should help neutralise the formic acid but am wondering whether it also contains some form of antihistamine. Fun fun fun...

I don't have any toxicology info to back this up but from the little anecdotal stuff I read it appears anything involving smoke, smoked foods etc will be to a greater or lesser degree carcinogenic. The quantities of toxin in any British wood other than yew are sufficiently small that you would need to eat a very large quantity of the wood to do yourself any harm. If you inhale the smoke from an elder fire I am sure it would do you no good but that would not be down to any toxin in the wood, just the fact that inhaling smoke is bad for you.

I personally would be entirely happy eating food cooked on any BBQ wood including yew. I don't know if the taxin in yew is flammable or if there is any chance of it traveling in the smoke and depositing itself still in toxic condition on the food but even if it was capable of the latter the quantities we are talking about are not going to be at a level worth worrying about. If you live in a house with UPVC double glazing, open new plastic packaging or paint your house with gloss paint the off-gassing from all that, all day every day and night is (in my opinion) much more likely to do you damage than any level of toxin you are likely to ingest from food cooked over any particular type of wood on a BBQ. Life is not risk free but we live with levels of risk and toxin around us all the time.

[Harvestman]

My understanding of the nettle sting question is very simple - it is the cool leaf surface of whatever plant you apply that reduces the pain. Not because it is in any way neutralising the acid, or applying anti-histamines, or whatever, but simply because it is cool. The lowered temperature reduces the rate at which nerve impulses fire, so pain is reduced, and slightly reduces the inflammatory response, which again reduces pain.

Big-leaved plants like dock and burdock are popular because they give you a large area of leaf to apply to the pain area, not because they have any special properties. A handful of grass would have exactly the same effect, as would applying some cold water.

[dasy2k1]

I regually burn rodi (gret wood for scout camp fires as it burns very bright) never had any issues with it or heard that you shouldent burn it before

[Laughoutlouder]

My understanding of the nettle sting question is very simple - it is the cool leaf surface of whatever plant you apply that reduces the pain. Not because it is in any way neutralising the acid, or applying anti-histamines, or whatever, but simply because it is cool. The lowered temperature reduces the rate at which nerve impulses fire, so pain is reduced, and slightly reduces the inflammatory response, which again reduces pain.

Big-leaved plants like dock and burdock are popular because they give you a large area of leaf to apply to the pain area, not because they have any special properties. A handful of grass would have exactly the same effect, as would applying some cold water.

Also, burdock is apparantly basic which would help neutralise the effect of the formic acid present.

[country boy]

Loads of info thanks folks

[joe.ford]

great and hugely useful thread.

Just 2 more woods I'm curious about as I have 2 logs sat in the shed.

Would Small Leaved Lime be the same as other limes?

And how about Cedar of Lebanon

[robin wood]

great and hugely useful thread.

Just 2 more woods I'm curious about as I have 2 logs sat in the shed.

Would Small Leaved Lime be the same as other limes?

And how about Cedar of Lebanon

Yes to lime and nice but smelly to cedar.

[Armleywhite]

Holly isn't toxic, but it can taint / ruin food with nasty bitter taste. it's dead leaves are fantasticc to use as kindling as they contain so much oil and burn well.

[Big E]

Thanks for the thread, all my questions are answered

[Eragon21]

Brilliant thread, been looking at the recent carvings completed by the members on here and the pictures posted and now I think I can be confident in atleast picking a wood which is food safe. Will have a go at making a few wooden foodie stuff out of the sycamore I have in my shed. I had to fell a tree last year in my garden as it was gettind a bit too big, so got plenty of it!!

[joe.ford]

Another question the very knowledgeable collective.

Is Rose Wood safe? Possibly Dog rose

[MalIrl]

Hi folks, anyone have an opion on ivy for cooking over? Not strictly a "wood" but a very fast burning for getting a fire going.

Mal

[dasy2k1]

Ivy is great for getting the fire going as you say but I have never got much in the way of embers from it.

So one of those woods that's not really suitable for cooking over regardless of toxicity

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