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Thread: Winter Driving

  1. #1

    Default Winter Driving

    I originally posted this over on Song of the Paddle but thought it might be of interest here too....

    I have been reading the various threads dotted about the internet and thought it might be useful to a few members if I jotted down a few pointers.

    When not running Bushcraft Courses I can be found teaching Skid Avoidance and control techniques.

    There are generally two types of Skid.

    The front wheel and the rear wheel skid. The classic under steer and over steer for those that watch Top Gear.

    Most cars on the road these days are front wheel drive about 80%. Been a a while since I checked the data.

    The means 20% are rear wheel drive or 4 wheel drives.

    You can achieve a front wheel skid in a rear wheel drive and rear wheel drive car.

    The bad news is your more likely to get a front wheel skid in a front wheel drive car.

    80% of all skids are caused by excessive speed for the road conditions. Common sense tells you when its slippery to slow down.

    15% of skids are caused by harsh breaking. If you treat your car nicely it will be nice to you.

    That leaves only 5% for breaking. Excessive braking is actually a factor of too much speed.

    So what should we consider to reduce our chances of having a uncontrolled skid?

    Our tyres are important. The provide grip and directional control. The legal limit for tyre tread in the UK is 1.6mm. However we recommend you change your tyres at 3mm. At 1.6 your working at around 10% of the tyres efficiency.

    Next question is how often to do check your tyre pressures? An under inflated tyre can cost you 3 points and a fixed penalty. Also you will not be getting a proper grip with the road surface. Less grip more chance of a skid.

    I recommend people check their tyre pressures weekly when the car is cold. Once you have driven a few miles the pressure in the tyres will increase and you will not get a true reading.

    Also when checking run your hands around in the inside checking for bulges chips and splits. A blow out at 70mph is seriously going to spoil your day.

    The rear wheel skid.


    You are entering a right hand bend to quickly for the road conditions and the weight will transfer to the nearside front wheel. This will cause the back to lose grip and start to slide.

    What do you do?

    Firstly the cause of the skid was too much speed. Therefore I need to slow down.

    DO NOT Brake.

    Take you foot off the gas. FOG.

    Now its time to steer in the direction of a the skid.


    This means if the back slips left your turn the steering wheel to the left. If you steer to the right you will do a graceful 360 and hit the car that was following head on.

    Your now travelling sideways so reset the steering and relax allow the car to become balanced count 1 2 3 and Gently reapply the gas.

    If you hit the accelerator too soon you will start to fish tail and eventually lose control.

    Why do not brake?

    Breaking in a skid situation will cause the wheels to stop rotating so you will lose all traction with the road surface and therefore will actually increase speed briefly. To steer you need wheel rotation. So by breaking you will hit the Oak faster and in a lovely straight line.

    The good news is that rear will skids (over steer) are very tactile and instinctive to control.

    The front wheel skid.

    This skid is the one that catches most drivers out. When driving in country lanes we have all sadly seen the bunches of flowers by the roadside. These are generally located at the exit of the bend. It was the front wheel skid that got them (under steer).

    The front wheel skid is NOT tactile so therefore is it difficult to detect. One method I teach is to look at your limit point. That is to look as far around a bend as you can safely see. We could all do with increasing our focal point when driving.

    It is just like going for an eddy. Cars and canoes go where we look.

    So now we our entering this right hand bend a little too fast for the conditions. We set our steering and start to turn but something is not quite right so we set more steering to force the car around the bend. The car is no edging closer to the ditch.

    You have set enough steering to end up in your neighbours kitchen but you are heading towards a tree. something must be happening to the car. That is a loss of traction through the front wheels.

    Action:

    DO NOT BRAKE.

    Take you foot off the gas. FOG.


    Keep looking in the direction you want to go and gently rock the steering wheel a quarter turn slowly and deliberately. This improves the surface area in contact with the road surface and will help you regain control sooner.

    Once the car is balanced again count 1 2 3 and gently reapply to gas. This time if you apply the gas too soon you take weight off the front wheels. It was the front end causing the problems and you will go into a secondary front wheel skid. Do you have room for 2?

    If necessary drive to a safe spot and stop. Relax and phone a friend. Do not stop immediately after you skid. The driver following may not be as competent as you and will park in the rear of your car.

    Do not try and power your way out of trouble. Drifting properly takes lots of practice a good road surface and decent tyres. It your skidding in an emergency the you will just increase your turning circle but apply power too early.

    Do not try and change gear. You want maximum engine braking to slow the car down to regain grip as early as possible.

    Automatics are much harder to control in a skid. No engine breaking. The two techniques above still work it just takes longer.

    4x4's are not get out of jail free choices. Plenty of off roaders will have slide down a wet grassy slope. A four wheel drive car generally allows you to push it closer to its limits of traction before it lets go. You are therefore likely to travelling slightly quicker and instead of losing grip at one end you will be travelling sides with no traction on any wheels.

    Same rules apply do not brake. FOG. Most often with a landy the rear will slide before the front so teat the slide as either a rear wheel if the back went first or a front wheel if the front goes first.

    Sorry for the long post but I thought it might prove helpful to some.

  2. #2

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    Good post Wayne

    My dad always told me to drive in ice or snow like there's an egg on the dashboard.

    Still had a few prangs though but mainly just clipping the odd curb or two in a slide, some intentional and some not
    Rich




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  3. #3

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    Drivers in this country are just totally useless when it comes to driving in snow/ice.
    Too much lead in our boots - and not enough patience!!!
    Tom - I'm a country member...

  4. #4
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    Wayne, thank you
    Thank you for not only taking the time to write that post out but to take the trouble to make it understandable and memorable.
    It's very much appreciated.

    I wish I lived nearer 'cos I'd get the menfolks to pay for me to come and do a course with you.

    atb,
    Toddy
    You are never too old to have a happy childhood.
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  5. #5
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    Loads of people haven'nt got a clue about driving in the snow and ice , a wee bit of snow and the city's come to a halt ...

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    thank you for post :-)

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    Good post Wayne, it should give people a few pointers.
    Hope you don't mind me adding that it is a good idea to drive in the highest gear possible as you are less likely to create wheel spin and lose traction.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogoak View Post
    Good post Wayne, it should give people a few pointers.
    Hope you don't mind me adding that it is a good idea to drive in the highest gear possible as you are less likely to create wheel spin and lose traction.
    Extra advice is always welcome.

    I just wanted to get people thinking about their driving style and how that can effect the cars performance.

  9. #9

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    Very timely post!

    Its actually a good idea in my view to find a nice clear space like an empty car park and intentionally create each type of skid ( including the 4 wheel skid) just to practice recognising and correcting them. My missus hates it when I do it but it does pay dividends when we get weather like this.

  10. #10

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    To be studied with no less humility by the many blockhead 4X4 drivers if my experience of their approach to driving in hazardous conditions is anything to go by. My charitable terminology relating to those who imagine that black ice does not recognise a Toyota and so therefore may continue in the "closed" fast lane of the M20 at 80MPH! This being the same lane that has been ignored by the snow plough and received that of the middle lane!

    In fairness to either their stupidly or plane recklessness this pretty much reflects the average member of the public's perception of what 4X4 vehicles can cope with.

    Of course Land-Rover Defender drivers are more careful by necessity as they struggle to move beyond the slow lane!

    Cheers

    Klenchblaize

  11. #11
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    Just another thought, do not have your vehicle in cruise control if roads are slick.

  12. #12

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    Thanks Wayne.

    Anybody tell me what FOG is. Fog (as in misty type of an abbreviation?)

    Grtz Johan
    Dutch Unlimited, the mobile educator

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by born2roam View Post
    Thanks Wayne.

    Anybody tell me what FOG is. Fog (as in misty type of an abbreviation?)

    Grtz Johan
    Foot Off Gas.

    Nice and simple to remember.

  14. #14

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    after several interesting skids (wet ones, icey ones, snowy ones and high speed blow outs) I have to say that the don't brake and take your foot off are the most important things that I've learnt!

    Actually, the most important thing I have learnt is to avoid driving if I can when the roads are slippy Which is why I'm getting precious little work done over the last few weeks: my village is at the top of an icey hill
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  15. #15
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    Useful post Wayne.

    Could you expand upon how useful ABS brakes are and if they require a change in technique ?

    This year I fitted out our family car with a set of the Vredestein All-Season tyres. Sort of a cross between summer road tyres and the winter tyres that are required by law for driving in some parts of Europe. Have to say they seem pretty good so far and particularly useful for us stuck out here in the hills.

    http://www.vredestein.co.uk/Banden_B...&BandtypeID=66

  16. #16
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    I skidded not an hour ago in our street
    It's hard packed runnels of frozen slush and ice. The car has those energy saving tyres on it and it's not funny

    I did remember the high gear, foot off gas, and don't brake, just steer into the slide. Missed the neighbours cars by cms and didn't wreck mine.

    If the ice build up gets any higher in the local street the council is going to have to send out a snow plough I reckon.

    cheers,
    Toddy
    Last edited by Toddy; 05-01-2010 at 17:24. Reason: typo
    You are never too old to have a happy childhood.
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    Thats an interesting post and should be taken on board.
    I have a ford ranger rwd light back end and useless in the wet let alone the snow haha.
    Control and skid days are good to attend as there is alot of techniques to driving compared to what you do in the normal driving test.
    I drove in the British Drift Championship last year and can say having them skills also have saved my bacon in this dangerous weather.

  18. #18
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    Default Abs

    Deeps
    ABS is a great invention as an aid to careful driving as very well covered by Wayne. It will reduce the distance of a skid while going forward. There are two drawbacks worthy of concideration.Firstly as the ABS has the effect of giving some braking there is a tendency to push harder on the peddle to improve the stopping of the vehicle so it is easy to forget that a skidding situation has activated the abs and you will travel further than normal to stop,also it is easy to not use the skills you would employ if you did not have ABS because of reliance on the system. Secondly ABS has little effect on a sideways skid unless there is still a good amount of forward movement. Waynes advise is the best for cars with or witout ABS.
    just those with ABS have a slight advantage.
    Safe journies all
    Richard

  19. #19
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    The main issue is people driving to close behind me, not leaving a huge gap like I do in front of me. I have seen 4 pile ups since the thursday before Xmas.

    Nick

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    Thank Wayne,
    a very informative and timely post. If only you could come up here and drum your knowledge into most of the drivers up here. Mad. Still, 30cm forecast for tonight, so yippee, no driving tomorrow and no work. .

  21. #21
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    Like Wayne, I know how to handle skids, and hence it doesn't worry me too much. (Other people skidding does worry me though).

    The point that I would like to add is that it is (mostly) possible to avoid getting into a skid in the first place.

    The golden rule to avoid skids
    DO NOTHING SUDDENLY


    1. Do not brake suddenly
    2. Do not steer suddenly
    3. Do not accelerate suddenly
    4. Do not let yourself be surprised suddenly (otherwise you will instinctively do 1, 2 or 3)

    So... everything gently, gently.
    Everything very smoothly.

    Rod

  22. #22
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    Me and SWMBO have spent an entertaining 30 mins watching a procession of cars come skidding down the hill outside our house. No great speed but a few whacks into the kerb for some drivers. We also saw a Land Cruiser gently sliding backwards down the hill for a good few metres... should wipe any 4x4 related smugness away

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by baggins View Post
    Thank Wayne,
    a very informative and timely post. If only you could come up here and drum your knowledge into most of the drivers up here. Mad. Still, 30cm forecast for tonight, so yippee, no driving tomorrow and no work. .
    I'm back to school tomorrow. If it's too snowy etc I have to walk to my nearest school, which will probably shut too. Never happened as I live 2 miles from school.

    Like the Borders, they shut the schools but expected the stafff to still turn up, daft, if enough teachers then don't shut the school.

    However, leave a big gap.

    Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scots_Charles_River View Post
    The main issue is people driving to close behind me, not leaving a huge gap like I do in front of me. I have seen 4 pile ups since the thursday before Xmas.

    Nick
    People drive to close behind me i flick on my rear fog light, and they think im braking and slam on the brakes, they get the idea pretty quick.

  25. #25

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    Finally somebody writes the thruth about winter driving ! Be slow and gentle, take your time, it will take longer!

    In Austria and Scandinavia they don't wipe of the snow from the streets or deploy salt, the drivers simply KNOW to drive slow and carefull and it works!

    In Germany, were I actually am, they try to clean off everything from the streets and everybody thinks, that they can drive as fast as ever (IMO too fast). Those were the ones I had to collect from the street, while driving an ambulance during my civil service and then they still asked why we drive that slow!

    If you want ti train your winter drivin skills, then take your bike out and try, but don't forget your helmet! You soon learn how soon you'll slide on snow and ice!

  26. #26
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    on the topic of winter driving (and inspired by something said by Eds in another thread) what's a good snow/winter tyre?
    Beer is life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TallMikeM View Post
    on the topic of winter driving (and inspired by something said by Eds in another thread) what's a good snow/winter tyre?
    A lot of people round this area use Vredestein winter tyres, from what I have heard they seem to be a good choice.

    I do not have any personal experience with them myself as I have a lifted Nissan Patrol and run 33" Cooper Discoverer STT tyres .
    Chris

    'Experience teaches only the teachable'. Aldous Huxley

  28. #28
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    As mentioned in my post above, our Vredesteins are doing well on the family road car. Paid about £50 each for them.

    It is tyres that make the difference in this weather.

    On Tuesday I had the pleasure of pulling a BMW X3 with slick tyres and alloys out of a ditch with my knackered old Frontera fitted with 'proper' tyres. Very hard not to appear smug ;-)

  29. #29
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    cool, thanks guys. I think I shall get a set.
    Beer is life.

  30. #30
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    Cheers for the post Wayne. Ive been out in the landy a lot at work in the backroads and taking it steady has been the main thing. Always good to get the extra advice.

    Ive been dabbing the brakes a bit harder than needed on safe sections of road, to check grip limits, and get a feel for the conditions as they change. Handy before entering corners on the compacted untreated roads.

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