Salt in Survival

[Geoffrey]

HI guys wondering how to keep the bodies salt supplies up in a survival situation.

I have heard about using blood, making salt from distilling sea water, boiling hickory sticks etc...

Can anyone shed some more light on this subject?

Love to hear more about this topic.

Geoffrey.

PS how big a concern is this in a survival situation? Should I pack some in my survival kit?

[Adi007]

You've got two of the best there ... using animal blood and evaporating sea water.

Salt tabs used to be common in survival kits but now not so - unless you are in a very hot climate or in a long-term situation it is unlikely to be a high concern.

[tenbears10]

I've read the book of the Kon Tiki expedition (they sailed a raft from S. America to the Galapagos) and it took them quite a while to work out why they were showing signs of dehydration even though they were drinking the correct amount of the fresh water supply. Only when they drank a cup of sea water a day as well as the fresh did the dehydration cease. They continued drinking a small amount of salt water throughout the trip.

Bill

[RovingArcher]

I carry small salt packets in my food kit that I get from fast food eateries. In case of severe dehydration, I carry a couple of packets of Emergen *C*, which is high in potasium and other necessary minerals and vitamins.

[match]

A good alternative to salt in your kit is dried powdered nettles - these are extremely rich in all sorts of vitamins and minerals, and there is less risk of 'overdosing' as might happen if you are taking pure salt.

[leon-1]

You've got two of the best there ... using animal blood and evaporating sea water.

Salt tabs used to be common in survival kits but now not so - unless you are in a very hot climate or in a long-term situation it is unlikely to be a high concern.

Salts are important for proper body function, they are electrolytes which can effect the heart and muscles performance, a lack of them in your system can cause fatigue, weakness, nausea and headache as symptoms.

As Adi says you have the two best ones, blood has a balance that is similar to the one required in your own system.

One of the major reasons for not having salt tablets in survival kits now is that most of the salt required is taken from the food we eat, also as Adi mentions there are occasions where you may require more salt, these are normally when the human body is put under more stress. Hot conditions are one such occasion working at altitude is another if you are not used to it :-)

[Stuart]

the best sources of salt in survival have been mentioned but I thought I would mention that under expedition conditions in the desert I find the best way to keep a good salt intake is to have a bowl of soup in the evenings when the temperature drops.

keeps you warm and provides needed salt.

[Carcajou Garou]

What about the white wood ash from hardwood fire any salts in that sort of substance?
just a thought

[leon-1]

What about the white wood ash from hardwood fire any salts in that sort of substance?
just a thought

Yes there are, they are mainly potassium based salts, good if you need to cut down on the amount of sodium that you intake. Ashes in small amounts have also been used for stomach complaints in the past

I beleive that LYE was extracted from these ashes as well and used in the preparation of corn to make hominy, however this appears to have been quite a skilled job and not something that should be tried unless you have been taught how to do it.

CG, do you know if this process is still in practice with your people????

[tomtom]

is there an advantage of evaporating sea water over just drinking it?

[Realgar]

I beleive that LYE was extracted from these ashes as well and used in the preparation of corn to make hominy, however this appears to have been quite a skilled job and not something that should be tried unless you have been taught how to do it.

CG, do you know if this process is still in practice with your people????

I know it's still used in Mexico. It's not too difficult but if you mess up you end up with mush or small bullets depending on which way you do it. The alkali breaks down the tough maize coat to give something that's easily ground to a paste for tortillas.
Lye's also used in Scandinavia for preserving fish - Lutfisk, and can be used in bushcraft for treating lichen to make them more digestable but probably only just.

Realgar

[dchinell]

I have no experience with this, but my understanding is that it's not something I'd have to worry about. In any survival situations in which I'm likely to be involved, balancing my body salts or electrolytes won't be necessary.

However, I do like the idea of including packets of table salt in my kits, mainly for use as a medical aid. I've had good experience with the drawing power of salt solutions for ear, mouth, and eye problems. I've also soaked infected cuts in warm or hot salt water to reduce swelling and draw out pus.

Bear

[Carcajou Garou]

My grand-mothers used to make their own soap and such from wood ash and fats, I don't know the whole process but they used wood ash (white) for a lot of things. I know salt loss is very important even in as few as 3-4hrs you can really start feeling the effect, muscle cramping, brain function slowing down talk to marathon runners about electrolites? imbalance. That where salt junk foods come in in the good for once.
just a thought

[SARHound]

I have no experience with this, but my understanding is that it's not something I'd have to worry about. In any survival situations in which I'm likely to be involved, balancing my body salts or electrolytes won't be necessary.
Bear

By the very nature of a survival situation you don't know what it will be or you'd avoid it.

That being said if you find yourself short of salt in your system you'll realize the err of your ways in a very painfull and regretable manner between convulsions.

Salt, sugar and water are ALL key in staving off serious dehydration caused by too numerous reasons to mention.

Water absorbtion and retainment is almost the #1 priority to think otherwise is foolhardy and down right dangerous.

Hound

[dchinell]

Hound:

Dire warnings notwithstanding, you haven't convinced me. All the stuff I read online says it's simply not an issue. Nobody lists salt tablets in their kits. I've fasted for two weeks -- water only -- and had no convulsions.

The kind of situation I'm trying to equip myself for is being lost for three days in the forest, or surviving until rescued after a plane crash. That sort of thing.

From the ETS site, re salt tablets:

"The use of such tablets for general electrolyte replacement has been discredited for many years. Salt tablets only accelerate dehydration in most circumstances. They should only be used sparingly in exceptional circumstances, generally under the direction of a physician, and only when there are substantial quantities of water available and the patient has already been significantly re-hydrated."

Bear

[maddave]

I also tend to carry small "cafe portion" salt sachets in my food kit and there are always 2 satchets of Dioralyte in the bottom of the 1st aid kit

Pretty sorted for salts and electrolytes :wink:

[Geoffrey]

Awesome info guys, thanks.

I have just about finished putting together my daypack, I will keep some salt with my mess kit but not worry to much about putting any in my mini survival kit.

Thanks so much.

Geoffrey.

[SARHound]

Hound:

Dire warnings notwithstanding, you haven't convinced me. All the stuff I read online says it's simply not an issue. Nobody lists salt tablets in their kits. I've fasted for two weeks -- water only -- and had no convulsions.

The kind of situation I'm trying to equip myself for is being lost for three days in the forest, or surviving until rescued after a plane crash. That sort of thing.

From the ETS site, re salt tablets:

"The use of such tablets for general electrolyte replacement has been discredited for many years. Salt tablets only accelerate dehydration in most circumstances. They should only be used sparingly in exceptional circumstances, generally under the direction of a physician, and only when there are substantial quantities of water available and the patient has already been significantly re-hydrated."

Bear

I never said use salt tablets under normal circumstances as it is not needed for the most part. When one finds themselves in a heat exhausted state from days of profuse sweating you will die without salt no question. This is not an old wives tale but documented fact by the WHO in third world countries where severe dehydration is all to common by to many causes. Their solution to the problem is a mixture of salt and sugar in specific amounts and is known as rehydration formula. Plain water WILL NOT solve the problem and will make it worse by putting an inabsorbable water load on the kidneys.

How can you guarantee you will not be in such a situation? Maybe you catch a stomach bug and dehydrate quickly from diarrhea, plain water will kill you no question. There is no disputing this fact in medicine.

Comments about constant use of salt tabs is founded but is missleading in that a very small amount of salt and sugar is need to maintain an electrolight blance and salt tabs are overkill and have the opposite affect.

Why do you think extreme athletes drink watered down sports drinks and not plain water?
Because they cannot absorbe the water fast enough to stay hydrated without proper salt sugar ratios in the water. Their performance rates are astonishingly different when comparing water to a salt sugar solution

Believe what you want. Do a search on oral rehydration formula and the WHO and how many millions of lives are saved each year because of a proper salt sugar solution.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but relaying hard facts as I have done the research and experienced the benefit first hand. TIme to do your own.

HOund

[dchinell]

Hound:

In my brew kit I carry two or three packets of Emergen-C hydration drink. In my Altoids-tin PSK I carry two packets of iodized salt. So I think I have the necessary goodies to prevent problems. (In fact, I also have antidiarrhetic medicine in my PSK.)

The trouble is, having never experienced electrolyte imbalance I wouldn't know when to use either in an effort to rehydrate myself properly.

The best situation I can imagine is feeling dull-witted or terribly weak after days of sweating, and deciding to mix up the Emergen-C or add a packet of salt and some sugar to a liter of water and drink that in the hope that I'd feel better.

Beyond this, do you have any suggestions?

Bear

[Stuart]

The best situation I can imagine is feeling dull-witted or terribly weak after days of sweating

Under the right conditions (usually found in desert and jungle areas) the onset of unconsciousness from sodium chloride depletion can be measured in hours not days.

The temperatures in these places force you to drink large quantities of water which if not balanced with salts dilute the sodium chloride levels in the blood to dangerous levels.

There is a recorded case (which frustratingly I cannot find my papers on now) of a girl collapsing and dieing of heat stroke in the jungle on a British expedition company excursion.

She had arrived in Singapore and traveled into the jungle the day before, she complained of a headache and was found to be dehydrated so was given water to drink, a hours later she fell unconscious and stopped breathing, an immediate evacuation plan was put into action but the only I.V. needle in the medical kit broke so they were unable to deliver fluids (part of the medical kit had gone with a person evacuated earlier after sustaining a suspected fracture) it took all night to evacuate the girl with continuous artificial respiration the whole way, but the did not recover.

Investigation into this death found that she had been taken the advice to drink lots of water and had done so, however it was discovered that she was on a low salt diet and so had been avoiding all salt.

in this country we are quite versed in the dangers of hypothermia but very ignorant of the great danger posed by hyperthermia

you are correct that salt tablets are not recommended though, salt should be taken on food or in an electrolyte drink.

[greg2935]

Thought I would give you guys a few links to help!

Why you need salt:

http://www.foodsciencebureau.com.au/nutrit/salt.htm

Why, when doing bushcraft or other related activities (i.e. when you are more suseptible to digestion problems, and lack of quick medical care), it might be a good idea to have a little salt in your pack:

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_.../diarrhoea/en/

I should emphasise that the vast majority of trips, you do not require salt (although it is a useful material for bushcraft in its own right). However, it does come into its own if you get a serious problem like Cholera or Dysentry, in which case it may be a lifesaver. As for symptoms, this is the best place I know for desease symptoms without the technical language:
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/
for the technical language and far more comprehensive:
http://www.diseasesdatabase.com
Hope that helps :wink:

Greg

[SARHound]

Hound:

In my brew kit I carry two or three packets of Emergen-C hydration drink. In my Altoids-tin PSK I carry two packets of iodized salt. So I think I have the necessary goodies to prevent problems. (In fact, I also have antidiarrhetic medicine in my PSK.)

The trouble is, having never experienced electrolyte imbalance I wouldn't know when to use either in an effort to rehydrate myself properly.

The best situation I can imagine is feeling dull-witted or terribly weak after days of sweating, and deciding to mix up the Emergen-C or add a packet of salt and some sugar to a liter of water and drink that in the hope that I'd feel better.

Beyond this, do you have any suggestions?

Bear

First off congrats on carrying some solution as it can be a lefesaver under certain circumstances. Plain old gator aid powder is cheaper than dedicated rehydration formula. :wink:

Believe it or not heat exhaustion comes quickly and easily to many people every year and is usually caused by too much internal body heat combined with not enough water intake.

It is this reason alone why the FLorida Gators football team developed gator aid in the first place as their players were dropping like flies during summer training camp in your home state :wink: .

The trick to hydration is to avoid it at all costs in the first place. Many say get your salt and sugar intake from food. This is a fair satement for 90% of the time however its flawed in that when in a situation where you are on the edge of heatstroke you do not feel like eating or can't keep it down. Food minerals will keep you balanced for a while but soon enough the sweat and heat depletes your body of salts and sugars that must be replaced.

My suggestion and what works for me and many others in the SAR biz is that you sip regularly on a solution of gator aid type drink that is watered down 3 fold from the original drink or mixing directions. The diluted formula is a watered down version of gator aid we know today and was found to be the ideal mix of sugar water and salts but it doesn't taste great so they sweetened it up for retail sales. My triathlete friends and and all who try it swear it gives them stamina and the don't cramp as much not to mention they ward of thirst and deydration etc...

If you don't drink constantly you risk overheating and then a slightly more concentrated drink is needed. The theory behind why the drink works is that the large intestine absorbs 2-3 times more water faster because it has a little sugar and salt in it. Its more chemicaly complicated than that but you get the idea.

Many are correct in this thread however for most circumstances plain water is fine. But it is alarming how fast one becomes in need of salts and sugars in their water to avoid heat exhaustion and heaven forbid, heat stroke.

HOund

[Carcajou Garou]

Stuart is so right about salt loss occurring in a matter of hours, in the mines where hard work is required in heat salt tablets are given by the leader, otherwise men just fade to fast and cramp up and become fuzzy in the head. Always carry some salty foods (junk foods are good) and or salt packets.
just a thought

[Wildpacker]

"The use of such tablets for general electrolyte replacement has been discredited for many years. Salt tablets only accelerate dehydration in most circumstances. They should only be used sparingly in exceptional circumstances, generally under the direction of a physician, and only when there are substantial quantities of water available and the patient has already been significantly re-hydrated."


I'd hate to wait till I'm significantly rehydrated before considering electrolytic balance. Hyponatremia is a big killer when well-meaning people give water to someone suffering from serious dehydration. Moral is not to drink much on the way back up unless it's an electroloytic drink under medical supervision. Otherwise it's small sips all the way.

[spamel]

I was told once that if you put salt on your food and cannot taste the salt, your salt levels are low. When I had drank lots of water in Oman, I would put a sachet of salt on my food. Sometimes I couldn't taste any salt, so I believe this advice to be spot on.

[RovingArcher]

Stuart is very right that it can be a matter of a few short hours and you can become incapacitated. During sweat lodge, which can last as long as 2-4 hours to complete, I have been so weak and disoriented when leaving the lodge that I couldn't stand once out of lodge. Muscle cramping, extreme weakness, upset stomach, headache and confused thinking processes are all involved I think. When I started using Emergen "C" prior to going into ceremony, I haven't encountered any further symptoms of dehydration. We always have a small feast afterwards, which usually includes juices, beans, soups, breads, etc. to help boost our strength.

[woodrat]

the reseon they stopped using salt tablets over here in the militaryis that it was found that if swallowed whole, the tablets could cause "burns" on the stomach linning. I've also read this in a couple of other places. I will try to locate that info. I normally just puor small amouts in my canteens and take it that way. It is essential, I can tell you from exsperience in the mohove dessert and the desert of eastern oregon, it can easily cripple your ability to operate not having it.

[Pict]

I carry salt in my PSK, three grams and I'm thinking of adding more. I know I sweat profusely and have experienced severe dehydration. It was a horrible experience.

I often have the opportunity to take large groups of teens on hikes and I always carry oral rehydration mix with me, many packets. It always seems like one or more people will lag behind or just plain drop out. Once we had a foot race at a camp and a girl dropped out and started convulsing etc. We gave her electrolyte tablets from the first aid kit and about a liter of water. She recovered very quickly. I've seen this many times. An hour rest in the shade with oral rehydration solution and it's like filling a car with gasoline (petrol).

This doesn't often happen in people with a healthy diet but people suffering from malnutrition are very susceptible. They live on borderline failure all the time and added stress can easily push them over the edge. Physical conditioning varies widely as does the general level of hydration people are already living with before the start of the ordeal. Many people, especially in hot climates live in cronic dehydration.

Brazilians tend to eat alot of salt in their food, enough to make most Americans complain. These same Americans often drop like flies due to the heat. I think most American live in cronic dehydration.

Sometimes you can wipe your forehead here and come away with salt crystals. That is very rare in my experience in North America. In the tropics salt is an essential component of emergency kit IMHO. You don't need to overdo it.

Starting with a healthy diet and normal electrolyte levels you could go a day or two in severe heat with no ill effects but once they start you are in for a sufferable existence until you take care of it. Surviving three day ordeal in severe heat could come down to the salt you packed in. If not for you than for some other member of the group who started farther down the scale than you did. Mac