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Thread: A wee question about deer..

  1. #1

    Default A wee question about deer..

    Was having a conversation recently with a mate about deer. We were discussing hunting etc ( not that we were going to, neither of us would know how to ). However one of us thought that you couldn't or shouldn't eat deer meat at certain times of the year due to the fact it will taste bad, due to musk glands or something like that. The other one of us said he'd not heard of that, and you could eat deer killed any time. Of course we were ignoring the legal and moral issues of killing an animal out of season etc, and thinking of in a survival situation.

    Anyone got any input in this, as to if thats correct or not?

    Cheers.
    "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"

  2. #2

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    Don't eat the musk glands

  3. #3
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    You can eat deer at any time of the season. However some deer populations have "wasting disease." So, you can have all of my share. The musk gland is not affected by the climate, or season.

    As soon as humans figured out that you shouldn't eat diseased animals, they also concluded that after winter arrived it would kill off all of the sick and weak animals, so people felt more comfortable with winter kills than with summer kills. Also, deer breed in the autumn and give birth in the spring. By not killing deer in the summer you are not depriving a fawn of its mother, it will be on its own by winter.

    All of these factors have entered into our belief systems and consequently, some people believe that killing deer in the spring or summer is some kind of food taboo. No, it is just common sense. (codified into law in most places)
    In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.

    --- John Muir

  4. #4

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    Chinkapin: As English is a second language to me, I may have mis-interpreted this:

    "The musk gland is not affected by the climate, or season."

    Do you mean that you eat the musk gland?

  5. #5
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    Bucks, stags and bulls (dpending on what species you're hunting) have a very, very strong taste during the height of the rut. They're not inedible, but they can taste fairly bad.

    Pete

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by pete79 View Post
    Bucks, stags and bulls (dpending on what species you're hunting) have a very, very strong taste during the height of the rut. They're not inedible, but they can taste fairly bad.

    Pete
    Ahh interesting. Any idea what species are affected by this? What is it that causes the taste, and does anyone know of a way to remove it from the meat?

    As before, nothing to worry about - just interested in the this and what causes it.
    "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsitenha View Post
    Do you mean that you eat the musk gland?
    You don't eat the musk gland.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagual View Post
    Ahh interesting. Any idea what species are affected by this? What is it that causes the taste, and does anyone know of a way to remove it from the meat?
    Testosterone causes it, it affect all UK species (not sure about others) and no you cant "remove" it as such, more just certain ways of cooking it dull it down somewhat, i would recommend any richard prior book if you have an intrest in deer in general and stalking, or Graham Downings book, which i cant remember the name if your just after stalking stuff




    Sam

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cael Nu Mara View Post
    Testosterone causes it, it affect all UK species (not sure about others) and no you cant "remove" it as such, more just certain ways of cooking it dull it down somewhat, i would recommend any richard prior book if you have an intrest in deer in general and stalking, or Graham Downings book, which i cant remember the name if your just after stalking stuff




    Sam
    Cheers, naa I don't have any interest of deer hunting or the likes, just an intellectual interesting in the question posed.
    "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"

  10. #10
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    Default musky meat

    As has been pointed out, deer meat (especially the liver) become very strongly tainted during the breeding season - the same happens in sheep and any other "photoperiodic" mammal. This of course is of no consequence in "survival" terms, there is nothing harmful in the meat. The close season usually ensures that such males are not hunted BUT should you be required to cull an animal or make a mercy killing, there are ways of reducing the taint. The most effective is to stun and then bleed the animal. The heart continues to beat for a while after stunning and purges the meat of blood (through which all those hormones are flowing!) This of course isn't always possible in hunted or road kill animals. It also helps to soak the meat in milk prior to cooking to remove some of the bitterness. When surplus and redundant rams go to market they are enthusiastically bought within the Asian community because they tend to more vividly flavour (ie curry) the meat. I do this to my rams when they become redundant but I do slaughter them when they will be at their lowest testosterone levels!

  11. #11
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    Tsitenha: No you do not eat the musk glands. The original post by Nagual stated that he and his friend thought perhaps you should not eat deer at certain times of the year. Then they speculated that this might be caused by the musk glands.

    I simply said the musk gland is not affected by the climate (cold weather or warm weather), or by the season. In other words, the musk gland is there all of the time, and it has musk all of the time. If you get it on the meat you will have ruined that meat.

    I did not mean to imply that you could eat the musk gland. That would be a very bad mistake, i am afraid.

    I do believe that it is true that testosterone imparts a bad smell and flavor to meat. Sometime when you cook bacon it will smell like someone peed in the frying pan. I think you just got some bacon from a boar.

    On the other hand, testosterone does not have anything to do with what we call "gamey" taste. Most wild animals, whether they be male or female will have this overly strong taste. Impossible for me to define, but you know it when you taste it. Some of this taste is no doubt due to what the animal was eating. Deer that have been feeding on soy beans taste better than those that were scrounging around in the woods eating dead grass and moss for instance.

    Cooking techniques can help remove it somewhat. My wife used to have an uncle who killed a deer every year and he always would sit down and wait about 10 or 15 minutes before following the shot deer. The idea being that they would not be frightened by the pursuit and pump out even more adrenalin which is supposed to have an adverse effect on flavor. However, after locating the deer and hanging it up in a tree. He always waited until the carcass "broke a sweat" before he would begin to skin and clean the carcass. He claimed that if you did this you would have no "wild" or "gamey" taste. I don't know if it was really true or not, but I do know that I ate venison that he had killed and it was always mild and tasted really excellent. However, I do not know his wife's cooking techniques. I have often wondered about this and wondered if it really worked. I have asked many deer hunters if they have ever heard of this technique of waiting on the "sweat" and only a few said that they had heard of it and none had ever tried it.

    I have hunted all of my life, but since as a general proposition, I do not care for deer meat, I have not bothered to hunt them. Also, where I live there are so many people out in the woods and fields hunting, it is risky business. However, I believe that DOGWOOD, who posted above is a deer hunter on a regular basis. I may be confused about this but I think he might be able to shed some light on these topics of gamey, testosterone, adrenalin, musk, etc. Lets see if he will come back in on this.
    Last edited by Chinkapin; 30-11-2009 at 07:19. Reason: add content
    In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks.

    --- John Muir

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chinkapin View Post
    I have hunted all of my life, but since as a general proposition, I do not care for deer meat, I have not bothered to hunt them. Also, where I live there are so many people out in the woods and fields hunting, it is risky business.
    It can indeed be a risky business. My worst experience in this regard was winding up in a HAIL of bullets during javelina season in Arizona... Freaky.

    Two strategies help on this score: 1) if you're hunting early in the season (like the first weekend) hike many miles into the woods and well away from roads -- more than 10 miles -- a couple of days before hand. Many hunters (in non-ATV areas) don't want to go that far in (and thus have to carry the meat that far out) and you're more likely to have an unmolested hunt. Just remember, packing the deer and your gear out will be work, so travel light; 2) if you want to hunt closer to the road don't go the first weekend -- go the middle of the second week of the season. Fewer hunters. The game will be a little scarcer, but that's OK.

    However, I believe that DOGWOOD, who posted above is a deer hunter on a regular basis. I may be confused about this but I think he might be able to shed some light on these topics of gamey, testosterone, adrenalin, musk, etc. Lets see if he will come back in on this.
    The idea that the adrenalin affects the taste is generally considered untrue, although I know some old timers who absolutely swear by it and far be it from me to tell an 80 year old deer hunter what's right

    In any event, chasing a deer you've shot isn't going to appreciably increase the deer's fear: it's been shot, right? Getting shot is scary enough, being chased won't make it much worse.

    However, I do think -- and there is some evidence to support for this -- that the lactic acid that builds up when a deer runs can affect the taste. And because the deer dies, the lactic acid isn't flushed from the muscle by the blood. This is part of the reason you want to bleed the deer out as completely as you can when field dressing it.

    At the height of the rut, bucks live a very active life and have more lactic acid in their muscles as well -- that could account for the "rut flavor" some people notice.

    In my experience, deer that run a lot before dropping can taste somewhat more acrid than those that drop right away. (Remember, I don't eat the deer anymore, I give the meat to friends. A vegetarian hunter... There is something wrong with me...)

    However, good field dressing makes a huge difference. The key thing (other than not getting urine or intestinal matter on the meat) is to get the animal as well bled as possible and most importantly: get that meat cooled fast.

    After field dressing, I typically hang and skin the animal immediately and have found this makes a difference in flavor. A skinned deer cools many times faster than an unskinned one. Make sure to have a game bag or two handy to put the meat in to prevent flies from getting to it. A lot of hunters don't like to skin deer immediately and I think this accounts for their experience with gamey meat -- it took too long to cool.

    The only time I don't skin the deer right away is if I think it's too big for me (and sometimes a buddy) to carry back to camp and thus I'll be dragging it. If I drag it (an unusual event) you want to leave the skin on, obviously. But you should still dress it and hang it to cool a while (prop the cavity open with a stick).

    If you're more than an hour from camp, let it hang and cool at least 10 hours before carrying it back to camp. If you immediately truss up the deer to go back to camp it doesn't cool properly.

    While it cools, I'll usually flesh the hide some so it weighs a little less when packing out (I take the hides for buckskin, always). If I'm really far in, I'll usually butcher the deer in camp after it has cooled and before packing it out so that I'm spared the weight of bones, etc.

    A friend of mine insists that massaging the meat for 20 minutes or so when it's first hung makes a difference too. It might have to do with working blood out of the muscles. I tried it once and my friends said the meat tasted great. But I don't do it any more because I feel like and idiot standing there massaging a dead deer in the woods

    Chinkapin, the benefit of the "sweating" you refer too is probably a cooling thing as well.

    There is a cooking technique that can be effective at reducing the gamey taste: a day before cooking (or two days for a big cut), soak the venison in a bath of salt water spiked with a good amount of white vinegar. Every 5 hours or so change the bath. It will be red at first and then eventually pink/clearish. When that happens, nearly all of the game flavor will be gone.

    As Chinkapin mentions, what a deer eats certainly can affect it's flavor too. But proper field dressing and cooling really make a difference.

    Also, those big bucks with big racks always taste gamier than smaller bucks and does. Leave those big boys alone and alive to strengthen the gene pool and take the smaller bucks instead -- they're better eating anyway. Trophies aren't interesting, hunting is.

    Lastly, Chinkapin mentioned chronic wasting disease (CWD) a few posts ago. For those of you from across the great water, it's a disease not unlike mad cow (you know a lot about that in the UK, eh?) and it's really affecting deer/elk populations in Colorado, Wyoming and Nebraska. And sadly, I've read reports that it's been found in Chinkapin's Kansas too. We've even had a scare or two in California, but happily it's not a real issue here yet.

    It's very bad news and there have been fatal cases of it crossing the species barrier and affecting humans who eat infected meat. People who hunt in those areas need to be pretty careful about what animal they take....

    Sorry for going on so long, but I figured some might be interested in this. Any other deer hunters (oblio13, pete79, others?), please weigh in on your experiences in this regard.

  13. #13
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    I particularly agree with the cooling of the meat idea. That does reduce the gamey flavour. I always skin an animal as fast as I can to let the meat cool off more rapidly, and I have found through experience that it greatly improves the meat. Also, like Dogwood says, take a small beastie.......meat is more tender, better flavoured, and it is sounder for management of the population (I got a 2 year old bull moose last year, didn't even hang the meat and it was some of the most tender and tasty I've ever eaten). In fact........I agree with pretty much everything that Dogwood said. Can we stop talking about whether we eat musk glands or not!!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by dogwood View Post
    It can indeed be a risky business. My worst experience in this regard was winding up in a HAIL of bullets during javelina season in Arizona... Freaky.

    Two strategies help on this score: 1) if you're hunting early in the season (like the first weekend) hike many miles into the woods and well away from roads -- more than 10 miles -- a couple of days before hand. Many hunters (in non-ATV areas) don't want to go that far in (and thus have to carry the meat that far out) and you're more likely to have an unmolested hunt. Just remember, packing the deer and your gear out will be work, so travel light; 2) if you want to hunt closer to the road don't go the first weekend -- go the middle of the second week of the season. Fewer hunters. The game will be a little scarcer, but that's OK.



    The idea that the adrenalin affects the taste is generally considered untrue, although I know some old timers who absolutely swear by it and far be it from me to tell an 80 year old deer hunter what's right

    In any event, chasing a deer you've shot isn't going to appreciably increase the deer's fear: it's been shot, right? Getting shot is scary enough, being chased won't make it much worse.

    However, I do think -- and there is some evidence to support for this -- that the lactic acid that builds up when a deer runs can affect the taste. And because the deer dies, the lactic acid isn't flushed from the muscle by the blood. This is part of the reason you want to bleed the deer out as completely as you can when field dressing it.

    At the height of the rut, bucks live a very active life and have more lactic acid in their muscles as well -- that could account for the "rut flavor" some people notice.

    In my experience, deer that run a lot before dropping can taste somewhat more acrid than those that drop right away. (Remember, I don't eat the deer anymore, I give the meat to friends. A vegetarian hunter... There is something wrong with me...)

    However, good field dressing makes a huge difference. The key thing (other than not getting urine or intestinal matter on the meat) is to get the animal as well bled as possible and most importantly: get that meat cooled fast.

    After field dressing, I typically hang and skin the animal immediately and have found this makes a difference in flavor. A skinned deer cools many times faster than an unskinned one. Make sure to have a game bag or two handy to put the meat in to prevent flies from getting to it. A lot of hunters don't like to skin deer immediately and I think this accounts for their experience with gamey meat -- it took too long to cool.

    The only time I don't skin the deer right away is if I think it's too big for me (and sometimes a buddy) to carry back to camp and thus I'll be dragging it. If I drag it (an unusual event) you want to leave the skin on, obviously. But you should still dress it and hang it to cool a while (prop the cavity open with a stick).

    If you're more than an hour from camp, let it hang and cool at least 10 hours before carrying it back to camp. If you immediately truss up the deer to go back to camp it doesn't cool properly.

    While it cools, I'll usually flesh the hide some so it weighs a little less when packing out (I take the hides for buckskin, always). If I'm really far in, I'll usually butcher the deer in camp after it has cooled and before packing it out so that I'm spared the weight of bones, etc.

    A friend of mine insists that massaging the meat for 20 minutes or so when it's first hung makes a difference too. It might have to do with working blood out of the muscles. I tried it once and my friends said the meat tasted great. But I don't do it any more because I feel like and idiot standing there massaging a dead deer in the woods

    Chinkapin, the benefit of the "sweating" you refer too is probably a cooling thing as well.

    There is a cooking technique that can be effective at reducing the gamey taste: a day before cooking (or two days for a big cut), soak the venison in a bath of salt water spiked with a good amount of white vinegar. Every 5 hours or so change the bath. It will be red at first and then eventually pink/clearish. When that happens, nearly all of the game flavor will be gone.

    As Chinkapin mentions, what a deer eats certainly can affect it's flavor too. But proper field dressing and cooling really make a difference.

    Also, those big bucks with big racks always taste gamier than smaller bucks and does. Leave those big boys alone and alive to strengthen the gene pool and take the smaller bucks instead -- they're better eating anyway. Trophies aren't interesting, hunting is.

    Lastly, Chinkapin mentioned chronic wasting disease (CWD) a few posts ago. For those of you from across the great water, it's a disease not unlike mad cow (you know a lot about that in the UK, eh?) and it's really affecting deer/elk populations in Colorado, Wyoming and Nebraska. And sadly, I've read reports that it's been found in Chinkapin's Kansas too. We've even had a scare or two in California, but happily it's not a real issue here yet.

    It's very bad news and there have been fatal cases of it crossing the species barrier and affecting humans who eat infected meat. People who hunt in those areas need to be pretty careful about what animal they take....

    Sorry for going on so long, but I figured some might be interested in this. Any other deer hunters (oblio13, pete79, others?), please weigh in on your experiences in this regard.

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