4 Season Sleeping - Weight vs Warm vs Size - The old debate

[lamper]

First off apologies for yet another thread about this, but rather than extending another thread (most of which have already read on here), I thought I would create my own as I have some specific questions I need to ask.

I'm not that fussed if it is either down or synthetic, but I do want best bag I can get.

I am a UK camper mostly so mainly dealing with temps down to about -7 (havent been to North Scotland so if this warmth needs adjusting, please let me know). I plan on going away to other climates, but no sure where yet.

I basically want to be able to camp all year round in Europe or US with a bag that is small and weight 1kg ish or less. I should state the 1kg ish is very ish. 1.2 ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM! - Am I dreaming?

Bags in question (though this list is only my own and I am very open to other ideas - notice I cant find a synthetic bag that fits this....)

• Alpkit Pipe Deram 600 - Light/Cheap/ seems to pack small but cant confirm - NOT AVAILABLE UNITL MARCH 2010! - http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?...ategory_id=253 - £140
• Alpkit Pipe Deram 800 - Light ish /Cheap/ seems to pack small but cant confirm - might be over warm at -17 and its over 1kg
  - http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?...ategory_id=253 - £160
  
  
• Marmot Helium Reg - Light - Great bag (or so I have read) but expensive - http://marmot.com/fall_2009/equipmen...g/info/details - £220

All comments wanted, but please only comment offering either personal experience of the bags listed of an alternative.

Personal
---------------------------
Height: 5, 11
Build: Slim to Average (actually very similar to Gailainne - it would appear)

Shelters
--------------------
MSR Hubba Bubba (2 man ultralite tent)
DD travel hammock and tarp - could use hammock as bivi as well
Bivi Bag - dont have one, but would consider it instead of hammock, but would need to be a one that is away from your face.

Underneath
---------------------
Foam mat - standard £5 jobbie
Thermarest Prolite 3
All wether space blanket - (http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys...tml?cid=133635) - awesome piece of kit!

Clothes
---------------
Dont like to wear alot when sleeping, boxers and t-shirt
If cold, will wear thermals (only 1 layer though) and wolly hat.

Rucsack
-----------------
Berghaus 35+8 freeflow - would ideally like to be able to use this for up to 3 days
Karrimore SF 75 - Winter/bushcraft (because of extra tools) - longer than 3 days.

[big_swede]

Roberts.pl offers hi-quality bags for a decent price. I can recommend them. No prices on their site, so you'll have to mail them. Custom jobs available too.

[lamper]

legend - cheers mate, ill give them a bell.

[Grooveski]

You should pop into a few shops and try a bunch out. Sizes vary and some fit better than others. Lets you see how all the different baffles, footwells and zips feel too.

Way I saw it was that it'd been twenty years since I'd bought a winter bag so if this was going to be it for the next twenty I wanted to see it first. You don't have to buy in the shops, you can always come away and look for a deal online.
None of the three shops I asked in had any problem with me kicking off my shoes and snuggling down on a thermarest. One of them even had a wee cobbled platform just for the job.

Not so easy with Snugpack I know(a lot of the folk I've camped with recently have them so I'd already checked them out).

Tried the Helium and if weight had been an issue it'd have been right up the list, felt like a very nice bag(if a little whispy - felt a bit like it wasn't really there). Went for a Never Summer instead which doesn't meet any of your requirements, price had a lot to do with it.

[lamper]

I do intented to tour the shops prior to buying.

I'm interested in your overall experience on marmot. I looked at the never winter and apart from the weight its a sick bag. If i wasnt being a gram weenie it would be near the top. This may be the case if i need to increase my options.

So, what do you think of marmot? Am i in safe hands if i go with the helium - from a manufacutres point of view.

(sorry for typing. On iphone on the train)

[Grooveski]

You're asking the wrong person. I liked the look of both those Marmot down bags and one of their synthetics.
But also liked the look of a couple of the Rab bags, they were a little tighter somewhere though
...and one of the snugpacks.
....and a bunch of others.

I went to Keswick for the afternoon, rummaged around and went on fit and feel.
Was only a couple of months ago though. Have been hot and cosy so far but we're only a few nights in.
Cosier than a synthetic that hasn't puffed up in a decade, a piece of junk summer bag, two broken zips and all your clothes, that's for sure.
Cosier than the competition? No idea, some of them felt pretty cosy.

[Wilderbeast]

I have a mountain equipment classic, it's down and simply fantastic plus off ebay they're about £100 flat!

[Gailainne]

I have a pipe dream 600 bought it last year when they came back in stock, excellent bag, I'm 5' 10" and 11.5 st so fairly average, I had room length wise and at the shoulders, used it at the new year meet at Comriecroft in a hammock and was toasty (with an underblanket) somewhere between -5 and -8 deg c, for the money I think its a very good bag.

Cheers

Stephen

[Kerne]

I have a pipe dream 400 which I use for 2/3 seasons and a Mountain equipment lightline for colder weather. Both good (and I sleep cold!) A higher spec Pipe dream might be a good bet.

[East Coaster]

Just a thought, but have you considered combining a sleeping bag liner or a light weight bivi bag to extend the temperature range of a bag. It would open up a wider choice of bags for you and it would give you a more versatile set up to use according to the temps you encounter.

[scanker]

Some good advice already in the thread, particularly that above about a liner/bivi, especially as you intend to use one bag all year - you may be a little warm in the summer, when you may just be able to use your liner.

I've an Alpkit Alpine Dream 600. It's the predecessor to the pipedream I think. AFAI remember it was rated to -5C and I think that was fairly conservative. That said, when the forecast is for less than -5C, I'm taking my army arctic bag!

You don't mention what size you are. You'd have to check, but Alpkit used to do runs of sleeping bags in different lengths but with the same weight of fill, so if you were short, you'd get extra insulation. Worth checking. I rate Alpkit stuff very highly.

Finally, I'd give at least as much consideration to what's underneath you as to your choice of sleeping bag. Down mat, open cell, closed cell - it makes a lot of difference. Also what clothing you wear whilst sleeping, tent, tarp or hammock etc etc. Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs.

Another finally, -5C to -7C, is fairly common down here in winter. The coldest I've been is in Edinburgh when the temperature was -12C or something. Colder with the wind too. You can bet it was lot colder up in the hills at the time!

[drewdunnrespect]

stuff this messing around why not just have done with warmth and comfort and by the snugpack antarctic RE goes down to minus 50 best bit of kit i have ever had

[Graham_S]

stuff this messing around why not just have done with warmth and comfort and by the snugpack antarctic RE goes down to minus 50 best bit of kit i have ever had

Because the maximum weight the OP wants is 1.2kg
the Snugpac Antarctic RE weighs in at 2.8kg.
Over twice the weight.

[lamper]

All,

I have updated the main post as well, but to clarify....

Personal
---------------------------
Height: 5, 11
Build: Slim to Average (actually very similar to Gailainne - it would appear)

Shelters
--------------------
MSR Hubba Bubba (2 man ultralite tent)
DD travel hammock and tarp - could use hammock as bivi as well
Bivi Bag - dont have one, but would consider it instead of hammock, but would need to be a one that is away from your face.

Underneath
---------------------
Foam mat - standard £5 jobbie
Thermarest Prolite 3
All wether space blanket - (http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys...tml?cid=133635) - awesome piece of kit!

Clothes
---------------
Dont like to wear alot when sleeping, boxers and t-shirt
If cold, will wear thermals (only 1 layer though) and wolly hat.

Rucsack
-----------------
Berghaus 35+8 freeflow - would ideally like to be able to use this for up to 3 days
Karrimore SF 75 - Winter/bushcraft (because of extra tools) - longer than 3 days.

[Grooveski]

You'll have much more choice than I did. I always was broad and have been putting on some depth as well.
In fact the marmots might be a bit loose for you.
You'll be fine with the pipedream.

Don't know what the meet scene is like where you are but that'd be a good way of checking some bags out.

[drewdunnrespect]

didnt realise that the snugpack wayed so much and that there was a weight limit should have read origanol post better

drew

[lamper]

Drew: no worries. the bag I am replacing is a 12 year old "Mountain Equipment - made by Benn Harris", I later found out that Ben Harris was the name of SnugPak before they were SnugPak. It took their long serving employee to identify it! - its a 2.5kg whomper (-10c comfort). Still going strong, very warm and well made - Just too heavy.

Grooveski - Agreed. Alpkit look like the best bang for buck and they arent bricks either.

Cheers all for the insights. Any further comments welcome.

[Genaa]

Hiya,

Have you considered PHD sleeping bags? They do a good range and can also supply custom bags to your own spec. They are pricey but you get what you pay for I would say..

http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/sleepingbags.php?cat=26

also, consider upgrading your sleeping mat - a better sleeping mat will add considerable comfort to your sleeping system and need not add significant additional weight. For year round comfort and definite luxury in the warmer months I'd get an exped downmat or synmat....

http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped...E?openframeset

the downmat 7 has an R value of 5.9 - making it about twice as warm as a thermarest and about the same weight - toasty down to -24!

Pricey but hey - what price comfort if you save weight into the bargain?

[big_swede]

Hiya,

Have you considered PHD sleeping bags? They do a good range and can also supply custom bags to your own spec. They are pricey but you get what you pay for I would say..

http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/sleepingbags.php?cat=26

also, consider upgrading your sleeping mat - a better sleeping mat will add considerable comfort to your sleeping system and need not add significant additional weight. For year round comfort and definite luxury in the warmer months I'd get an exped downmat or synmat....

http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped...E?openframeset

the downmat 7 has an R value of 5.9 - making it about twice as warm as a thermarest and about the same weight - toasty down to -24!

Pricey but hey - what price comfort if you save weight into the bargain?

PHdesigns have very good reputation here too. Extremely good performance per weight. Lighter gear means less spent energy, which means less food need to carried, which means less energy spent etc. If the lighter gear also is warmer, then you will spend even less energy, which means you will have to carry even less food, which means lighter load... etc etc.

[mart]

Can I jump in and ask if anyone has any experience with the woodlore canada jay sleeping bag. Its 2.6 kgs and has an extreme cold rating of -45, for £170.00 which is cheap in comparison to say a mountain equipment iceline. The iceline is similar in performance ratings but is obviously more expensive but is almost a kilo lighter than the canada jay. On top of both of these is the mountain equipment everest which goes down to an exteme of -57 for 2090g.

Sorry for the hjack, Mart.

[johnboy]

I'm not that fussed if it is either down or synthetic, but I do want best bag I can get.

I am a UK camper mostly so mainly dealing with temps down to about -7 (havent been to North Scotland so if this warmth needs adjusting, please let me know). I plan on going away to other climates, but no sure where yet.

I basically want to be able to camp all year round in Europe or US with a bag that is small and weight 1kg ish or less.


All comments wanted, but please only comment offering either personal experience of the bags listed of an alternative.

Hi,

I've owned quite a few sleeping bags over the years Issued Army, Civvy, Synthetic, Down, fibre pile etc I suppose there are a good 10 sleeping bags of one type or another in our garage Initially like you I wanted 1 bag that could cover all bases.

My experience and my advice is 1 bag cannot cover all bases. It's not too bad if you say hey I want a bag that can do for most of the UK all year round but I'm not going to be snow camping etc... But to say hey I want a bag to cover all temps and all conditions and perhaps in the UK and possibly overseas as well with the greatest of respect to you and your intentions I'd say you are being optimistic.

A sleeping bag that stops you getting totally hypothermic in a snow cave at 2500m in January when your tired a bit hungry a bit damp and wearing every stitch of clothing you put into your sabre 75 will be too warm to sleep in comfortably on the Beach in Cornwall in June.

I think you need to consider what type of person you are and are you a warm sleeper to begin with. If you are then you can 'get away' with a less insulated bag for example. I also think you need to understand where you're really likely to be going what elevation what time of year and buy a bag that meets those critera.

I've basically got 3 Bags I use regularly these are:

Macpac Down filled Solstice 4+ season I use this for all my alpine trips in the winter and some in the summer

Buffalo 4 season outer ( on it's own about a 3 season bag) I use this in the bush as it's very resistant to damp conditions and as tough as old boots the centre zip is good for hammock camping. it is very bulky as fibre pile does not compress and it's easy to launder.

Millet 2 season synthetic very light with a tiny pack size and fine for summer use here in NZ below the bush line and use in huts above the bushline in Summer.

I'd reccomend those to you for their intended use.

In the UK I used an Anjungilak Igloo which was a 3 season synthetic and was fine for everywhere except on the tops in the Lakes, N Wales, Scotland in Winter. I had a ME Redline for winter snow camping etc.

Hope this helps

[rik_uk3]

This would be above your weight limit, but have you thought about the US Army modular sleeping system?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-US-Army-Ma...item334a968961

[Genaa]

PHD Combi bag might also give you options for colder weather when added to say a minim or minimus bag

[lamper]

Hi,

I've owned quite a few sleeping bags over the years Issued Army, Civvy, Synthetic, Down, fibre pile etc I suppose there are a good 10 sleeping bags of one type or another in our garage Initially like you I wanted 1 bag that could cover all bases.

My experience and my advice is 1 bag cannot cover all bases. It's not too bad if you say hey I want a bag that can do for most of the UK all year round but I'm not going to be snow camping etc... But to say hey I want a bag to cover all temps and all conditions and perhaps in the UK and possibly overseas as well with the greatest of respect to you and your intentions I'd say you are being optimistic.

Hey Johnboy,

You're right, that would be optimisitc. What I am looking for a is a bag to replace my current Snugpack -10c 3 season. Something smaller and lighter that will cover me when my summer bag is not up to the job.

I'll check out the bags you mentioned.

Another one to add to the mix is >>
Mountain Equipement Xero 550 - (-6) expensive when compared to the Alpkit.
http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/...ro_550_---466/

This would be above your weight limit, but have you thought about the US Army modular sleeping system?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-US-Army-Ma...item334a968961

Love the idea of this, my mate has one for when he is fishing, but then he drives to the lake, sadly just too big even if you forget the weight.

[johnboy]

What I am looking for a is a bag to replace my current Snugpack -10c 3 season. Something smaller and lighter that will cover me when my summer bag is not up to the job.

Understood but what do you want the new bag to do? What conditions do you really expect to be using it in? Size and weight seem important to you. But I don't think you're going to get a bag that has a small pack size and low weight that'll keep you warm enough to get a really good nights sleep in very cold conditions.

The question you're really asking is what's the warmest bag I can get for an all up total weight of 1.0kg or 1.2 kg max??

I tend to look at it from a different angle. I'm going into this environment in these conditions at this time of year. I want to be warm enough to sleep comfortably what bag can do that with the minimum of bulk and weight.

I'm pretty wary of the extreme minimum rating on Bags as all this means to me is that at that given rating I'd be in the bag wide awake or sleeping extremely fitfully cold and on the verge of hypothermia but I'd get up in the AM and be alive...

[Genaa]

Uprating your sleeping mat to something considerably warmer than the thermarest will allow you to take a lighter sleeping bag longer into the autumn and winter and, if you go for a custom built bag, you can even specify how you want the down distributed to ensure that you put more on top to allow for an improved mat keeping you warmer underneath... like with most situations there is a triangular relationship between price, warmth and weight at play here - you choose the two that are most important to you and sadly that means that if you want both light weight and extreme warmth , it will come at a heftier price but it can be done. Best combo weight for warmth is probably the exped mat coupled with lightweight PHD bag, with a combi - overbag to use with it when the weather gets colder - that will cover all seasons with the minimum of kit and weight - but at hefty cost sadly.....

[Grooveski]

Another one to add to the mix is >>
Mountain Equipement Xero 550 - (-6) expensive when compared to the Alpkit.
http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/...ro_550_---466/

I think that was the one with the deep footwell. I mind thinking I'd have to be a contortionist to tuck my feet in in a hammock and it felt slightly tight round the knees, Couldn't use it as a quilt so easily,
Good zip.
Didn't have the ooph per price of the others.

Cotswald outdoors sell them(discount for BcUK members). Was the best bag they had in the shop bar an artic number.

[lamper]

All,

Thanks for the insights and help.

Think I have decided on the Alpkit Pipedream 800 for the following reasons...
- Great Price
- Good lower temp rating (-18c is about 8c below where I wanted so should be comfy warm)
- Good pack size
- Good Weight

If I had the cash I would get a Rab Quantum 600, but at £350-400 its aint cheap!!

[VirusKiller]

My only concern is that the PD800 is going to be too warm for you most of the time. The danger is that your toasty 4 season bag will only be usable in Winter. How often are you going to be sleeping colder than -10° (PD600 comfort limit)?

I went through this dilemma a year or so ago and, in the end got the a bargain ME Lightline (-5° comfort) which will do me for most of the year. It's not as light as the PD400 or PD600, but it's only 1130g and has superb baffling - I went for the luxury option!

I also bought another very light bag for Summer use (the Lightline is just too hot) and quickly got the opportunity to test it to its limits. I knew the bag would be at or below its 7° comfort limit with the temperatures forecast for the night (9° low, probably 5° on the ground), but there was only one way to find out whether or not the bag would live up to spec. So I wore a wool base layer and my 550 fill down jacket: My torso was quite toasty; with lightweight woolen long johns, my legs were a little cool, but not cold. So, in summary, you can add an extra season to a bag with a down jacket and long johns if you really need to. With a PD600, what are the chances you will?

[lamper]

My only concern is that the PD800 is going to be too warm for you most of the time. The danger is that your toasty 4 season bag will only be usable in Winter. How often are you going to be sleeping colder than -10° (PD600 comfort limit)?

I went through this dilemma a year or so ago and, in the end got the a bargain ME Lightline (-5° comfort) which will do me for most of the year. It's not as light as the PD400 or PD600, but it's only 1130g and has superb baffling - I went for the luxury option!

I also bought another very light bag for Summer use (the Lightline is just too hot) and quickly got the opportunity to test it to its limits. I knew the bag would be at or below its 7° comfort limit with the temperatures forecast for the night (9° low, probably 5° on the ground), but there was only one way to find out whether or not the bag would live up to spec. So I wore a wool base layer and my 550 fill down jacket: My torso was quite toasty; with lightweight woolen long johns, my legs were a little cool, but not cold. So, in summary, you can add an extra season to a bag with a down jacket and long johns if you really need to. With a PD600, what are the chances you will?

I have a good Karrimore for the summer - been in down to about 10c in my hammock and was still so warm I had to leave it undone.

The PD800 is going to be 'other' bag. When the summer bag is no up to it. Personally I would rather be VERY warm than cold. I will probably get a 3rd bag to cover the mid section, but for now I can either
- use the summer bag with a liner and hat etc.
- use the PD800 as just a blanket

This way I can still go out in Dec - Feb and not worry.

I like the look of the MH and ME bags, but I can see how they are £100 more bag than the Alpkit, and if the PD800 does well, I can get a 400 to match!