Why even Ray Mears dies alone in the subarctic -- part 1

[bushwacker bob]

Dogwood, I realise that a caucausian person would perish ultimately in the sub artic, but we have a tribe of Eurasians called the Evenk(e) in Northern Europe and Russia who have survived in the sub artic Tundra for millenia. They are reindeer herders for the majority of their subsistence and they are still there. They usually die from the terminal desease called life and not starvation. They are also generally muscular and not greatly overweight.
How do they fit into your theory?

[Jimmy the Jet]

Guys kill moose now, early fall. The temp is close to 0C all day, and below at night. Preserving meat is not too difficult. In warmer months, smoking in an open framed structure is easy to do, even for one. Cutting slices off a downed animal is work, but far from impossible. They do not hang the meat to age here, they just kill, and cut. They eat stomach contents for vegetable matter, organs, brains, eyes, everything. Drying meat is just not that hard. It isn't a myth that a moose will get you through the winter. It happens every winter. In warmer months, fish is plentiful. So are berries. Both can easily be preserved by drying for winter use. I realize the numbers say otherwise, but people have, do, and will live alone in the woods in the subarctic.
I think the inconsistencies are due to how the numbers are used. Lets say the numbers are correct for calories burned. Even if they are, that does not mean a guy hikes and hunts for that amount of time every day. With some luck, an animal will be killed, fish will be caught, and shelter built within a week. At very least the fish will be caught. Then once an animal is shot, no more hiking and hunting, at least for a while. There will be plenty of food, and well before it is depleted, another animal is shot.
Meat is not really the problem. It's vitamin c, fats, etc. Berries will meet the vitamin C requirements, but only if we start our journey in summer. Other edible plants contain vitamins, but berries are easiest.
Fish has all the essentials as far as fats go. Birds, muskrat, beaver, and rabbits are plentiful as well, but are lean meats. Luckily, they are also fur bearing, so they are multipurpose.

Here's a simple way to smoke meat. Remember not much heat is needed, the fire is primarily to keep the bugs off....



and the same for fish. Berries too, but there were none here....



A couple meals in one of these, small for this lake....



It's almost like I know what I'm on about...

[bushwacker bob]

Nice bait fish Jimmy. Artic Char?

[firecrest]

Is there a reason for there being spruce branches on the floor around the fire?

[Jimmy the Jet]

Lake trout. That young feller was 25-ish lbs.

The spruce boughs are for sitting around the fire, sewing, etc.

[Carbuncle]

Dogwood, I realise that a caucausian person would perish ultimately in the sub artic, but we have a tribe of Eurasians called the Evenk(e) in Northern Europe and Russia who have survived in the sub artic Tundra for millenia. They are reindeer herders for the majority of their subsistence and they are still there. They usually die from the terminal desease called life and not starvation. They are also generally muscular and not greatly overweight.
How do they fit into your theory?

It seems to me that the point Dogwood has been making rather elequently is that _solitary_ survival in the sub arctic is almost impossible beyond the short term due to the lack of economies of scale group cooperation brings, whether caucasian or not. Or am I missing the point?

[Jimmy the Jet]

Nope, i think that was the point. Even though clown-fish like me are not convinced...

[dogwood]

Dogwood, I realise that a caucausian person would perish ultimately in the sub artic, but we have a tribe of Eurasians called the Evenk(e) in Northern Europe and Russia who have survived in the sub artic Tundra for millenia. They are reindeer herders for the majority of their subsistence and they are still there. They usually die from the terminal desease called life and not starvation. They are also generally muscular and not greatly overweight.
How do they fit into your theory?

But they're not trying to live alone -- that's the point of all this, you need a tribe, a group of people. The calorie math simply doesn't work for a person trying to do it alone in the wild.

[dogwood]

Guys kill moose now, early fall. The temp is close to 0C all day, and below at night. Preserving meat is not too difficult. In warmer months, smoking in an open framed structure is easy to do, even for one. Cutting slices off a downed animal is work, but far from impossible. They do not hang the meat to age here, they just kill, and cut.

Jimmy, we're just going to have to disagree on this.

I've field dressed plenty of moose (just to get back to town) and I know what's involved. And if the animal drops in the wrong place, you've got 1,300lbs of moose that you've got to move alone. Time for the block and tackle and some long work.

This stuff is not trivial and I feel you're greatly over simplifying it.

The images you're showing are all of people handling less than 100 pounds of meat -- and in one, clearly it's a group setting. Anyone can handle less than 100 pounds of meat. You can field dress and butcher a deer inside of 40 minutes, but a moose is another matter.

"Kill and cut" as you mention doesn't get you through the winter, not even close. Because as all hunters know, you can't always find game. Then you get to die....

If this happens as often as you say, show me some real examples -- and not just Proenneke, because as we've established, his adventure isn't relevant for this discussion.

There's a reason native people don't head out for months alone -- they know it's fatal

Nor did the mountain men (they traveled in groups of 10 - 50 and often had their native wives around) and limited their truly alone time to no more than a couple of weeks. And they had supplies.

Even Daniel Boone and Simon Kenton -- arguably the two greatest outdoorsmen in North American history -- seldom went more than a month without winding up in a settlement or Indian encampment. And that was in the deer-fat Eden of Kentucky, not the subarctic.

In other words, in the historical record we don't have regular cases of people doing what you're saying they do all the time where you live. (Yes, there are one or two exceptions -- but we're talking about the 96% circumstance, not the 4% exception.)

I realize the idea of people doing this is just wonderful when sitting in our warm homes. But the realities are very different.

Then again, maybe I need to come up and see some of these super survivors you're hanging out with I'll be up there next summer, we'll hook up!

[Wayland]

This cuts right to the chase and illustrates perfectly the difference between the dream and the reality.

There are very good reasons why the Vikings considered being made "outlaw" comparable to a death sentence.

Surviving without aid is incredibly hard in the North.

[Jimmy the Jet]

Dogwood,

I cannot seem to write a response that doesn't sound argumentative, which is not my intent here. Your caloric info may be bang on. I am no expert in nutrition.

The rest of it is just theory, and it's based on techniques that people up here don't use. No one would hike or hunt for hours on end. It's too wasteful.

My pics were not taken as part of a sole survivor situation, they were taken at a camp. The point was to show how simple a drying rack is to make. Remember, there is no need to haul your moose anywhere. Smoke it where you dropped it. Skin one side and slice off the meat, then hang it. Doesn't have to be pretty.

Obviously, if you can't find fish or game, you'll starve, but any real Northerner knows that is unlikely here.

But, dude, "sitting in our warm home"??? What? Really? Man, I live here everyday. I hunt, fish, police, everything. Not just visiting in the summer, but all year long. That's why I know what I'm talking about. Disagree if you like, it's your prerogative. I have over 12 years in the subarctic and arctic, so I know that the things I'm saying come from real human experience, not theory.

[BigShot]

Toddy - don't get me wrong. I agree completely that their size would have been a large factor in their success as sailors. I was just chipping in with a few other points to add to the pot.

As for racial stereotyping... none of it! There are differences between the "races" - not so much so that we are different species or any kind of superiority in general - but we are all different and that's fine!

On the BMI front, the fact is it isn't reliable among people descended from white, north europeans either!
I'm "underweight" despite the fact that no matter how much I eat I have never managed to put on any considerable weight and despite years of swimming, biking, running and more I'm not exactly an athletic build either.
I've got a friend in the US Army. She had to cut fat to a pretty unhealthy level to get in because being VERY short and athletic, she was measuring as "obese" despite being nearly all muscle. She could out-run anyone in her cadet platoon, but she couldn't join up full-time without passing the physical and was failing on BMI alone for weeks on end.

Fact is, races are different, people within the races are different, we're just different!

Most of my family are very small... I'm 6'2". "Within a family" - yea, for sure!


Re: the modern attempt on Hōkūleʻa. It really was a shame. As the first lifeguard on the North Shore, Aikau used to go out into some truly deadly surf conditions and saved many lives. A true waterman.
The crazy part is the people on that boat were real watermen too, well prepared, the lot. Even added to the certain knowledge of island locations and a definite route planned they came a cropper.

It really does mark the original polynesian voyages out as being remarkable.

It's interesting how frequently the modern efforts at recreating past events seem so fruitless. I can't imagine modern mountaineers summiting everest with the gear Hilary and Tensing used.

[dogwood]

But, dude, "sitting in our warm home"??? What? Really? Man, I live here everyday. I hunt, fish, police, everything. Not just visiting in the summer, but all year long. That's why I know what I'm talking about. Disagree if you like, it's your prerogative. I have over 12 years in the subarctic and arctic, so I know that the things I'm saying come from real human experience, not theory.

Hey Jimmy, no offense intended on my part.

My reference to sitting warm at home meant when we're sitting there in front of the computer hypothesizing. The reality is different, that's all.

Kill a moose 8 miles from your camp (which is close...) and then start looking hard at the details of what's involved in keeping most of that meat and you're in trouble. And in large part the entire "I can survive alone in the subarctic" theory revolves around a big kill like a moose to provide you with months of calories -- hence my focus on the utter impracticality of that particular solo enterprise.

For what it's worth, I'm not just a summer warrior up there. I lived in Alaska for a couple of years and I've got many hundreds of miles of both long distance solo and group backpacking, cross-country ski-camping and hunting expeditions under my belt up there. So I know that environment intimately too.

My reference to summer was because I'm heading back up there next summer -- woo hoo, can't wait!

[bushwacker bob]

But they're not trying to live alone -- that's the point of all this, you need a tribe, a group of people. The calorie math simply doesn't work for a person trying to do it alone in the wild.

You are of course correct and I appologise for my digression. It seems Waylands mates in the 10th Century had it worked out too.

[southey]

What a fantastic thread.

[Chris the Cat]

You are not wrong southey, fantastic stuff!
And re-surfacing again on the day we hear of the poor guy found dead in the Scotish bothy !
It sure makes one think.
Chris.

[Sideburnt]

Find a regular supply of fat, easily the best form of calorie intake. I agree with this assesment though, hunter gatherers didn't simply 'live off the land' they either settled near a regular supply of huntable game or travelled with migrating packs of wild animal.

When I read about the preperation of animals by indigenous people, nothing is wasted, marrow is removed, ligaments softened and eaten, fat rendered until edible etc. every last once of calorie is removed before the animal is considered used up.

I guess in the arctic the same would be said to be true, one seal kill would provide the potential for a massive amount of calorie intake, so long as the blubber is prepared to be edible. It makes modern dieticians cringe at the idea of high fat diets being what we've evolved to utilise the most efficiently. But there's a very good reason. You have to find an enormous amount of carbs to provide such high calorific intake, sugar notwithstanding, which is now modernly produced to be much more freely available.

[Chris the Cat]

This thread has long been one of my favs on here!
Only wish I had something new to add!
BcUK at its best, well done fellas.
da C.

[udamiano]

Very good thread. would it be possible for a Mod to move this into the 'Sub-zero' section ?

Most of the calories that you expend in the high arctic, go literally to maintaining your core temperature. If you look at the peoples of the high arctic, you will notice that on average they perform tasks in difference ways than we do in the south. jobs are done in a way to conserve energy, and usually only ever done once. They have also adapted physically to their environment, they have a much higher cholesterol level than we do, but in their case instead of causing all sorts of medical problems, its used to store the energy the body needs and is burnt in a fast and consistent way, which means its not stored long enough in the body to cause a problem. Their diet is much more protein based than ours, meat appears on their diet in much higher levels than ours. All this goes towards their ability to maintain a much better life in their environment. Their skills have adapted over thousands of years, to such a high level, that the amount of energy wasted is minimal.
I really admire the peoples of the high north, and the small few times I've met some of them. they were open, friendly, and a joy to talk too.

Sadly though like many places, the inclusion of modern convenances, have mean that many of the communities have now become more reliant on modern supermarkets and shops, and much of the older ways are becoming consigned to history. Many of the men, now look to finding work, with the many oil and gas companies, that abound.and everything is terribly expensive.

[mrcharly]

I guess in the arctic the same would be said to be true, one seal kill would provide the potential for a massive amount of calorie intake, so long as the blubber is prepared to be edible. It makes modern dieticians cringe at the idea of high fat diets being what we've evolved to utilise the most efficiently. But there's a very good reason. You have to find an enormous amount of carbs to provide such high calorific intake, sugar notwithstanding, which is now modernly produced to be much more freely available.

'Frozen Planet' had a section on a tribe of walrus hunters. Worked together with two boats, harpooned a walrus twice, then shot it.

Talked a lot about how they ate ALL parts of the walrus and that one walrus was supply for months. Meat was stored in bags made by sewing up a slab of walrus skin with the blubber on the inside.

These bags of meat were stored for months and traded with a tribe of reindeer herders for reindeer fur and skins. fascinating stuff

[udamiano]

Most houses have a cold cellar instead of a freezer, the perma-frost means that even in the hight of the summer, the ground about foot below the surface remains permanetely frozen, and much colder that our freezers. Whole carcasses can be stored in these, for quite a large amount of time. Another issue is the inevitable introductions of fishing and hunting quotas imposed by the local governments, many of these do take into account of the northern tribes, but I was told that they still fall short of what is needed to make these people to ally self-sufficient, many of these regulations are to do with Whale, and polar bear hunting, which in the past would provide a whole village with enough food for the whole winter, so they support they diets with a trip to the supermarkets. where you can buy all sorts of stuff apart from food, the place where the cigarette counter here is, is where the have all the animation, and I never seen the local with a aisle for snow machines and hunting equipment (If your reading this Tesco's take note, i would spend a lot more money with you LOL)

[Andy BB]

I must admit I did blink a bit at the original post -particularly at the energy expenditure side. Then I began to realise that these numbers had been put together primarily for, and from, expeditionary work - please correct me if I'm wrong Dogwood! Hence what appears to be massive energy expenditure based on ten+ hours of intense physical labour a day. Which no-one not trying to reach the North Pole by dragging a sled is likely to do!

There seem to be so many intangible variables in the mix. Does the solo man have decent weapons? Decent clothing and other equipment - axes/knives/nails/wire etc? Is he near the sea-shore or major inlet to a large lake where he can set up fish-traps (potentially an inexhaustable supply of calories laid on for just picking up/spearing - literally fish in a barrel!) Lobster/crab pots off the rocks on a beach etc etc etc. Shell-fish snacks? shrimp from rock-pools? Seaweed? Likelihood of available mammalian or avian prey to set traps/deadfalls for? Caves for living in? Sufficiency of trees to provide materials for burning and building kit with?

Also what time period are we referring to? 21st Century? Many areas nowadays will have had game thinned out by pleasure hunters or "bushmeat" locals already living on the edge in an increasingly over-populated world. Many fish-stocks have been increasingly hammered by over-fishing. 100-200 years ago it would have been significantly different.

Would I survive? No, of course not, although - like seals - my blubber will extend my survival time and delay my core temps dropping to critical But is it necessarily as cut and dried as the OP indicates? I'd hazard a guess and say it all depends on the circumstances, equipment available, location and last but not least - knowledge.

[forestwalker]

I would expect expediture to be anywhere from 2500 kcal to 10000 kcal (per day). The lower for basically "office" level workload (stay in camp, good shelter, good clothses, firewood pretty much sorted, etc), the latter for extremely hard work like handcutting logs into firewood and manhauling it into camp.

For an example of what can actually be done I would direct readers to "Shadows on the Koyukuk" (by Sidney Huntington and Jim Rearden) and the story told in there of the native woman who walked basically fron Nome on the coast of Alaska to the centre. Most of the time with very little equipment. So it *can* be done, but it is Not Trivial unless you know a Whole Lot of Stuff (and not really even then, just possible). And in the long run the inevitable accident or disease will kill you if you are alone. But it could be a while before it kills you: luck and how carefull you are, mostly. With a group some of those that would kill a lone person are survivable.

[udamiano]

IIRC Ranulph Fiennes and Dr Shroud based their diet on 10000 cal per day, for their walk to the pole, however the actual amount turned out to be nearer 12000-15000 calls. they ended up making cup-a-soups using butter instead of water to try and up the intake. The book on the expedition is well worth the read. they still lost a third of their body mass even on this intake

[rik_uk3]

Good post, although I can't remember Ray Mears advocating solo survival in those conditions.

[Sideburnt]

IIRC Ranulph Fiennes and Dr Shroud based their diet on 10000 cal per day, for their walk to the pole, however the actual amount turned out to be nearer 12000-15000 calls. they ended up making cup-a-soups using butter instead of water to try and up the intake. The book on the expedition is well worth the read. they still lost a third of their body mass even on this intake

This is true, and a really good example of adapting the western diet to a more 'local' diet. The balance of Carbohydrate, Proteine and Fat would have been drastically different.

I follow a low carb diet to control my diabetes, and use little tubs of butter to increase my cal intake, since my only other option is grains. Oh and I sometimes use nuts too, but this goes against the OP's thread

[rik_uk3]

IIRC Ranulph Fiennes and Dr Shroud based their diet on 10000 cal per day, for their walk to the pole, however the actual amount turned out to be nearer 12000-15000 calls. they ended up making cup-a-soups using butter instead of water to try and up the intake. The book on the expedition is well worth the read. they still lost a third of their body mass even on this intake

You can swallow 20K of cals a day but your body just can't process it, hence Fiennes and Shroud lost body weight. I enjoy all their books.

I do talk to a guy up in Northern Canada and he's said much the same as others here, even experienced hunters, people who know the area can go out and find nothing, not a thing. With a Moose he said it takes three or four people to haul it back to your transport in big chunks. Group living/hunting is vital. This guy was up in Inuvik for years now gone to the 'warmer' Yellowknife.