Fire sticks and stainless steel knives

[CM Burns]

i have read in numerous books that a stainless steel knife does not produce good sparks when used to strike a fire stick - rubbish!

i have just tested this theory with a VG10 blade and was able to produce as good a shower of sparks as with a carbon blade.

the knife used was a small folder - the Beretta Electra.

interestingly, the Electra has very sharp angles on the back of the blade - the edges are not rounded in any way. maybe the problem associated with stainless steel knives is not so much to do with the metal itself but the finish to the back of the blade....

[Tony]

You’re quite correct Mr Burns. If the SS knife has a nice square back it will throw a spark quite nicely. I think that the type of SS can also play a part in how well the sparks will fly, as will the temper etc. But SS cannot be discounted as a spark producer :-D

[Gary]

Indeed the only reason Carbon steel is recommended is for its use with flint - the strikers that come with fire steels are undoubtedly stainless.

[Allmi]

Hi!

As to my information it has to do with the amount of carbon in the steel. While cheap SS contains very little carbon (i. e. 420 J only .04%) the better ones (440 C or VG10 or ATS 34 etc.) with higher amount of carbon (around 1% and higher) might work better. Not sure if that's true but to me it sounds logical.

Cheers
Allmi

[Martyn]

i have read in numerous books that a stainless steel knife does not produce good sparks when used to strike a fire stick

This is a total misnoma.

It comes about because stainless steel wont throw sparks off a flint. That is because when using a flint & steel combination, the sparks originate from the steel, and are infact tiny burning shards of steel. Stainless steel wont burn that easily, so wont throw sparks when struck with a flint.

When you are using a firesteel (ferrocium rod), the sparks are coming from the ferro rod, not the steel. The ferro rod is softer than the steel, so the steel knife blade stays intact. You dont even need to use steel, pretty much any ard sharp edge will trow sparks off a ferro rod. You could even use a brick.

[bigjackbrass]

You dont even need to use steel, pretty much any ard sharp edge will trow sparks off a ferro rod. You could even use a brick.

Of course, it would have to be a proper bushcraft brick. I've had my name down for one for a while, but I'm hoping that Wilkinson Sword might produce a cheaper version.

[Keith_Beef]

You dont even need to use steel, pretty much any ard sharp edge will trow sparks off a ferro rod. You could even use a brick.

Of course, it would have to be a proper bushcraft brick. I've had my name down for one for a while, but I'm hoping that Wilkinson Sword might produce a cheaper version.

LOL!

The other thing, is that stainless steels take a very good mirror polish, whereas some other steels (D2 springs to mind) are reputed to always be a slightly dull metallic grey. This, I think, leads knifemakers to do much more polishing on stainless blades, which rounds the spine too much to produce good sparks.

I've tried sparking a ferro rod on a few of my stainless and non-stainless knive, and found that I could get decent sparks off one blade, but not off another, made from the same Sandvik stainless(15C27, IIRR).


Keith.

[Martyn]

Yep, all you need is a sharp, hard edge. I tried sparking a ferro rod with my sebenza 3" folder, made from S30v stainless. It was absolutely useless. Not a single spark, but that was because the spine was very rounded. I took the knife to my belt grinder and put a sharp, square edge on the spine, see:



As you can see the spine on the knife is now very square. It now throws a superb shower of sparks as the spine bites very well into the ferro rod.

[TAHAWK]

At the Fallkniven Forum, their rep has asserted in the past that they deliberately make their knives with very square spines just for striking sparks. Those edges are now 420J.

I wonder if anyone has tried a laminated Fallkniven to see if it works as did the older, solid VG10 models.

[bushblade]

At the Fallkniven Forum, their rep has asserted in the past that they deliberately make their knives with very square spines just for striking sparks. Those edges are now 420J.

I wonder if anyone has tried a laminated Fallkniven to see if it works as did the older, solid VG10 models.

I own both old and new, the new ones work better than any other knife I own. The steel just has to be hard enough and square.
They don't work with Helle or some of the frosts laminated blades as the outer steel is too soft.

[JakeR]

The best way (and easiest) to get a stainless steel knife to shower sparks is to roughen it. You can do this with anything from a low grit waterstone to a brick or stone that you find in your garden! Alternatively you could use a file! :-)

I tried this with my mora, and it works fine.

Jake Rollnick

[woodsitter]

I use the file of my letherman, works great. Its also useful if you have to repair your vacuum cleaner. Looks like martyns sebenza isn’t very good at that.

[ditchfield]

Jake,
Yep, I agree. I chucked a rough diamond hone onto the back of my clipper and it chucks sparks like a beaut.

[FJS90-91]

I have a piece of "steel saw" when I use my fire stick, I never use matches or lighter.. So when my steel saw blade is getting old I break a 5cm about 2" of it and use it instead of my knife, I don’t like the idea of ruining my knife..

[TAHAWK]

I have a piece of "steel saw" when I use my fire stick, I never use matches or lighter.. So when my steel saw blade is getting old I break a 5cm about 2" of it and use it instead of my knife, I don’t like the idea of ruining my knife..

For that matter, 10 cm of hack saw blade, half sharpened and half wrapped with tape, makes a nice little back-up knife.

[Kukriman]

I see what you are trying to do...

but why would you ever grind a beautifully rounded edge on a sebenza? That is on of the great custom touches that makes it special. Jeez, go buy a SAK if you need to throw sparks... I just wanna puke when I think of somebody grinding on one of those folders.

Sorry guys you lost me on this one.Chris works too hard on his blades to justify this one.

Square edges suck on any knife meant to be used!
kukriman

[Martyn]

I see what you are trying to do...

but why would you ever grind a beautifully rounded edge on a sebenza? That is on of the great custom touches that makes it special. Jeez, go buy a SAK if you need to throw sparks... I just wanna puke when I think of somebody grinding on one of those folders.

Sorry guys you lost me on this one.Chris works too hard on his blades to justify this one.

Square edges suck on any knife meant to be used!
kukriman

LMAO, sorry to make you puke kukriman, but - wake up bud, it's a tool. If I ground a square edge on something else, that'd be something else I'd have to carry now wouldn't it? But that's probably best eh? Leave the sebenza at home in the drawyer where it belongs.

Your comments are what separates a collectors drawyer queen from a user - Terry Primos often says, using his knives hard, are the greatest compliment you can give them.

It makes me laugh how some people manage to sanctify these things. The seb is an excellent knife, but it's a tool, a functional item, not an object of devine worship. I dont believe Chris ever intended that for them.

Now go tell Tom Mayo, that drilling holes in the holly sebenza is sacrilige (or you can pick one up here for $400, but then they are "Tom Mayo" holes, those special kind of difficult to drill holes, that are round and empty in the middle - so I guess that's OK.) - at least there was purpose, rhyme and reason to my "modification". By making a minor change to the aesthetic (square edges suck on a working knife do they? ...please dont tell me the round spine had something to do with structural integrity, ...gosh, now I'm expecting my seb to crumble in front of my eyes.), ...I've added function that I wanted, that was absent before.

Oh, one more thing, I paid for it, I own it, I'll do what I damned well please with it thank you very much. :roll:

Oh, and by the way, 10 minutes finishing on a belt grinder, does not turn a CNC machined production knife into a custom (it's a contradiction in terms), no matter how nice the finished knife.

Cant you collect power drills or something, maybe you could get sanctimonious about those too. "ohhhhh, shock, nooooo, you didn't wrap the handle of the fabulous black&decker 750 variable, with duck tape did you?"

[boaty]

Square edges suck on any knife meant to be used!
kukriman

:shock: The square edge on the spine of Scandi knives has been used to scrape for, err, quite a long time. E.g. hides, bark (to make tinder), wood (to smooth the finish) etc etc. I'm not gonna ruin the edge of my knife, yet these are tasks that need doing and a square edge works just fine.

[Adi007]

I agree with you Martyn ... it's a tool and you paid for it and you can use it as a doorstop if you want!
This sanctifying of tools is, in my opinion, an odd phenomenon. But I feel that it stems from an insecurity - starting by looking at the knife and building up in the mind how strong, versatile, well made and so on it is so that the purchase is justified.
However, once the item is purchased, things change. Not only do I think that there is a worry about breaking the tool but also damaging it cosmetically. From there it's a short jump to it being a safe queen.
Take a look at the forums and one thing you'll notice ... the number of CR and Busse knives that are sold "unused" ... very odd.

[TAHAWK]

Take a look at the forums and one thing you'll notice ... the number of CR and Busse knives that are sold "unused" ... very odd.

IMO not odd at all. If knives were only sold to meet the need for cutting tools, the entire industry as we know it -- manufacturing and retail -- would collapse - especially the custom side. The "want" drives the market, not the "need."

[Martyn]

Take a look at the forums and one thing you'll notice ... the number of CR and Busse knives that are sold "unused" ... very odd.

IMO not odd at all. If knives were only sold to meet the need for cutting tools, the entire industry as we know it -- manufacturing and retail -- would collapse - especially the custom side. The "want" drives the market, not the "need."

It does indeed. But when the "want" factor becomes sanctified to the point that "using them" is dirty and obscene, then it's gone beyond funny. There's nothing wrong with collecting them, but there is definitely nothing wrong with using them. My sebenza has lived in my pocket, it's a very good knife (x3 overpriced, but very good). It gets used almost daily, It jingles around with my loose change and gets scratched - but who cares, and when it gets dull - I sharpen it. Do you know some people even send them back to the factory for sharpening. Funny thing, a lot of time and effort goes intop building them like tanks, then people treat them like they're made of glass. I wanted a bomb proof, hard use daily user - I asked around and the seb came highly recommended for the task. Now I have one, I find out it's a sin to cut things with one. :roll:
Hello. It's just a knife.

[TAHAWK]

[W]hen the "want" factor becomes sanctified to the point that "using them" is dirty and obscene, then it's gone beyond funny. There's nothing wrong with collecting them, but there is definitely nothing wrong with using them. My sebenza has lived in my pocket, it's a very good knife (x3 overpriced, but very good). It gets used almost daily, It jingles around with my loose change and gets scratched - but who cares, and when it gets dull - I sharpen it. Do you know some people even send them back to the factory for sharpening. Funny thing, a lot of time and effort goes intop building them like tanks, then people treat them like they're made of glass. I wanted a bomb proof, hard use daily user - I asked around and the seb came highly recommended for the task. Now I have one, I find out it's a sin to cut things with one. :roll:
Hello. It's just a knife.

First, Martyn, I use knives. I have too many because just when I find the "perfect" one, something else sings its siren song.

But as to your basic point, you want what -- logical? :wink:
Chap above got upset over the thought of a highly-regarded tool actually being used for its intended purpose. You got a bit steamed because he was upset. (Probably the line about "heaving.") Just smile. Collectors, by and large, keep the system going. Mike Stewart at Bark River will make the North Star woodlore model as a user's knife, but the the retail price couldn't be the projected $100 except for the collector demand. That demand lowers the average cost of the knives - - - - to users like you. They buy the item in exotic hardwood or jigged bone and you buy in linen micarta. Everyone is happy. :-)

[Martyn]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, I have more than my share of drawyer queens and have absolutely no problem with people buying knifes which never get used. But I am surprised when someone buys a knife, very specifically designed as user, and gets crtisised for doing such.

I reacted badly, it just irritates me. Especially with sebenza's, as even after owning & using one, I find the hysteria surrounding tham a bit laughable.

[Kukriman]

I didn't mean to get anybody's knickers in a twist...

Second, my comments aren't meant to sanctify anything.

Third, personal attacks aren't necessary.

The comment about square edges....have any of you ever used a knife with square edges for more than a few minutes. Try using one non-stop for an hour or two...then tell me how great they are. Square edges will raise hot spots anywhere they contact skin. IN a wet environment this process is acclerated.

Armchair Bushcarafters won't get it. Try dressing, skinning, quartering and boning a thousand pound moose with your square backed knife and you will understand why the makers round them off.

Take a look at a lot of really well made ethnic blades...most of them use a rounded or peaked spine. Why is that?

Don't be grumpy at a different viewpoint. I welcome all of your knowledge and advice.

Hey if you want to grind or change something you own...that's great. I "customize" tools all the time. But please understand why they are rounded in the first place..

OK this is the part where you tell me where to go.
Chop ON!
kukriman

[Martyn]

You're right and I apologise, I bit back a bit too hard. It was late. I modified my seb to do something I wanted it to do. It always irritated me how I could not get a spark with it, and found myself using a benchmade mini griptillian as my EDC in preference, as it has a very square spine and could get a spark with ease. To me this was a waste of a very good knife (not to mention a lot of money), which in many ways is superior to the griptillian. I almost sold the seb, because of this - pointless owning it, IMO, if I felt a simple missing feature prevented me from carrying it. But I did like the knife, it locks up like a vice and is immensely strong. So I made the seb so I could get a spark with it. I'm much happier with the knife now and it never leaves my pocket.

I dont understand suggestions that I've commited some kind of sacrilige though. You're not the first to say this, but it's usually from "sebenzahollics" who deify the knife out of all reasonable proportion. I understant the "want" factor, but to place a simple tool in such high regard as to fear using/harming/altering the knife in any way, is to loose sight of the purpose of tools IMO.

The benchmade griptillian (an excellent knife) has a perfectly square spine, and although I'm sure, this was not to make it good at striking firesteels, it is excellent for the job. It's also an example of how a top US knife manufacturer, doesnt agree with the "round spine" philosophy - if there is one. I think it's not so much a functional thing as a purely aesthetic thing.

As has been said before, many, many scandinavian knives have square spines. The scandinavians are no strangers to living off the land, or using their knives as practical tools for everyday living tasks - they have used em like this for centuries. It's a good testimonial for the benefits of a square spine under hard use conditions.

The Ray Mears knife also has a square spine, it's his own design. I dont think anyone would call him an armchair bushcrafter though.

Again, sorry for my snappy retort, it was unwarranted.

[Adi007]

Bottom line, it's a case of each to his or her own ... square spine, rounded, serrated ...

Personally, I've never had any problems with a square spine ... even with heavy whittling or even dressing but then again there are a lot of knives out there. Martyn made a mod job on his for a good reason I think but some folks might prefer to have the rounded spine.

Chiil ... it's just a tool! :-D

[Tony]

Bottom line, it's a case of each to his or her own ... square spine, rounded, serrated ...

Personally, I've never had any problems with a square spine ...

Shall we have a poll on who get on with the serrated spine \: :rolmao:

[Adi007]

I'd rather serrations on the blade than a rough thumb choil on the top of the blade

Who here will admit to having one of them cheap Rambo knives when they were young!!!! :shock: :f: ... the kind with the rubbish bubble compass on the top

Bottom line, it's a case of each to his or her own ... square spine, rounded, serrated ...

Personally, I've never had any problems with a square spine ...

Shall we have a poll on who get on with the serrated spine \: :rolmao:

[Kukriman]

Thanks for hearing me out guys...

By all means, if you feel the square spine is your thing then go for it. And please...please....carry the knives you own. It is a damn shame when Chris's knives don't get used...same for Busse...or any other real using knife. Damn shame not to...

Sorry if I came across a bit strong...

My own thoughts are pretty simple...round off all of the sharp edges except the one that's supposed to cut. And do not buy cheap. Save if you have to...but spend your money well. There are too many good makers who are affordable not to buy a solid blade.

Better yet...buy a blade from one of the many great scandi makers and put your own handle on. You will learn a lot about knives..and you will have exactly what you want for a small price tag...

Notice did not say cheap!

I'll do you one better than that...let's have a Bushcraft challenge! We all buy a blade. Finish it...using hand tools only...and then send pics of the results... I favor the "Leppu"..is that right? The big finnish blade...you know the one?

Let me know if anybody wants to have a go!
CHop ON!]
kukriman

[Adi007]

I would take you up on that but for the fact that I really wouldn't trust the quality of the mods I'd make with powertools ... I'd fear ruining the temper of the blade! :shock: But that's just me - there are some really good pro-am makers here and on British Blades!