Why isn't Ron Hood given enough Credit?

[Cairodel]

I've seen a couple of his videos, not too bad and better than many there just not easy to get hold of.

The DVD's are really good - if you have a credit card, delivery to UK is usually
around a week... I've found their service impeccable...

As for bushcraft knives, they are becoming more and more popular over there, and if
you check out the Hoodlums Forum, you will see a number of U.S. makers are getting
involved. While you're there, check out their on-line shop as well..

[Wayland]

Interesting the distinction between "survival" and "survivalists"....

That could settle a few arguments we have around here.

[Tadpole]

one thing I have noticed while reading the miriad US survival forums over the years is that if you took out all the british members you would have a sizeable uk forum but it probably wouldn't be a quarter as interesting as there's nothing really to do here and even survival wise you only really have to stay alive for three or four days. thats probably got more to do with the evolution of bushcraft (or dumbed down survival) as most dont see why they need to round off their skill set when they never lose their mobile phone signal and a gps is so much easier than learning to read a map.

In the UK, you are right, there is nothing much between sitting cold, wet, miserable hungry, scared, on your own, for three day until you are rescued. Or sitting next to a nice warm fire with a brew and a dry place to sleep for three or four days whilst you are rescued. The first is survival the second is bushcraft, if you can’t tell the difference by now then there is no point being here, you may as well go join a survivalist forum. Just make sure that you wear something bright orange, so no one mistakes you for food and shoots you, or a government agent coming to spy.

[weaver]

In the UK, you are right, there is nothing much between sitting cold, wet, miserable hungry, scared, on your own, for three day until you are rescued. Or sitting next to a nice warm fire with a brew and a dry place to sleep for three or four days whilst you are rescued. The first is survival the second is bushcraft, if you can’t tell the difference by now then there is no point being here, you may as well go join a survivalist forum. Just make sure that you wear something bright orange, so no one mistakes you for food and shoots you, or a government agent coming to spy.

Actually the difference is living through the threat of danger or living with no threat of danger. That is the only difference between survival and bushcraft.

[Tadpole]

Actually the difference is living through the threat of danger or living with no threat of danger. That is the only difference between survival and bushcraft.

Not sure what you mean, let me get this right, You think that if a numpty is lost and spend three/four miserable days/nights lost in the middle of a wood or on the edge of a moor, with the threat death by hypothermia, and by more luck than judgement on his part he is rescued by others, wet, miserable and close to shuffling off this mortal coil, that is the panicle of survival.
However, if a person with half an idea of what to do, finds himself in the same situation, and using his brain, and experience , and only with what he can find about him, makes himself comfortable and is rescued having spent a few days in relative comfort (of his own making) that is someting you feel is of a lesser achievement.

The threat/danger is equally applied to both, however one persons actions removes himself from the danger and the others inaction increases it. The situation is identical, the danger is also identical, and how the danger is dealt with, is the measures the person. In a any situation, any fool can be miserable.
So in short are you saying...
If you are “sitting cold, wet, miserable hungry, scared, on your own, for three day until you are rescued.” Then you are in a survival situation even if it is one of you own making.
However, given the same identical circumstances, you manage to make the best of a bad job and spent the identical amount of time in the same situation but through your own skills/knowledge, you have an ok time, then that is just camping/bushcrafting.

Bushcrafting I guess is reducing the danger your are facing by skill and knowledge. Would survival be the opposite?

[weaver]

Not sure what you mean, let me get this right, You think that if a numpty is lost and spend three/four miserable days/nights lost in the middle of a wood or on the edge of a moor, with the threat death by hypothermia, and by more luck than judgement on his part he is rescued by others, wet, miserable and close to shuffling off this mortal coil, that is the panicle of survival.
However, if a person with half an idea of what to do, finds himself in the same situation, and using his brain, and experience , and only with what he can find about him, makes himself comfortable and is rescued having spent a few days in relative comfort (of his own making) that is someting you feel is of a lesser achievement.

The threat/danger is equally applied to both, however one persons actions removes himself from the danger and the others inaction increases it. The situation is identical, the danger is also identical, and how the danger is dealt with, is the measures the person. In a any situation, any fool can be miserable.
So in short are you saying...
If you are “sitting cold, wet, miserable hungry, scared, on your own, for three day until you are rescued.” Then you are in a survival situation even if it is one of you own making.
However, given the same identical circumstances, you manage to make the best of a bad job and spent the identical amount of time in the same situation but through your own skills/knowledge, you have an ok time, then that is just camping/bushcrafting.

Bushcrafting I guess is reducing the danger your are facing by skill and knowledge. Would survival be the opposite?

Not at all what I said.

Bushcrafting is practicing camping activities in a very safe environment where there will never be a threat of danger.

Survival is using those same activities, skills, tools, knowledge, or what ever to live in a place that has some danger or threat to life.

You are comparing a fool to an experienced camper. I am comparing the same person, a prepared camper in one situation verses another situation.

The only difference between survival and bushcraft is where it is done, not by who does it or how well.

You are trying to say bushcrafting is a special art that is elevated above survival, I am saying they are the same except for the lack of danger in your more controlled and much safer environment.

[sam_acw]

The idea of bushcraft is surely to make more of the natural world a safe environment through skill, preparedness and understanding.
Survival and bushcraft are, to me, the same thing. Different goals, different fashions, different people but similar skills, literature and forums
Survivalism is another beast. In my opinion common sense, planning, self sufficency and preparation are important and good things. Sitting around with 2000 crates of ammo hoping for the end of the world is not.

[Tadpole]

You are trying to say bushcrafting is a special art that is elevated above survival, I am saying they are the same except for the lack of danger in your more controlled and much safer environment.

I'm not saying that it is a special art, I'm just saying IMHO that bushcraft is not some “dumbed down version of survival”.

Survival is mostly a situation; a person finds themselves in when they fail to prepare.

Bushcraft is keeping alive practices that were everyday skills that kept our forbears alive. Skills that could come in useful in the highly unlikely even you ever need them. I feel that by thinking of them as “survival skill” you are already preparing to fail, because you almost never get the chance to really practice survival skills

A question was asked on this board, about what method did people use to lit their camp fires, a few people used lighters, the reason given by some was they didn’t want to have to wait for a brew. To me, that defeats the whole point of practicing bushcraft. The more you practice the better you get at it.

[weaver]

I'm not saying that it is a special art, I'm just saying IMHO that bushcraft is not some “dumbed down version of survival”.

Survival is mostly a situation; a person finds themselves in when they fail to prepare.

Bushcraft is keeping alive practices that were everyday skills that kept our forbears alive. Skills that could come in useful in the highly unlikely even you ever need them. I feel that by thinking of them as “survival skill” you are already preparing to fail, because you almost never get the chance to really practice survival skills

A question was asked on this board, about what method did people use to lit their camp fires, a few people used lighters, the reason given by some was they didn’t want to have to wait for a brew. To me, that defeats the whole point of practicing bushcraft. The more you practice the better you get at it.

I never said it is dumbed down either, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you aren't trying to quote me as saying that. That is not my intention.

Survival is a situation you may find yourself in whether you prepare or not. Survival means living through a difficult or dangerous situation, nothing more nor less.

Learning and practicing primitive skills is a fruitless endeavor if you never put those skills to the test. My 10 year old camps out in our back yard, she knows if she gets uncomfortable she can, at any time, come into the house where it is warm and dry.

My 17 year old son just got back from a ten day canoe trip in Canada. If he had a problem he had to deal with it, no easy way out. He was prepared for almost any event and luckily nothing major happened. But the threat of danger was there and he had to depend on his skill, knowledge and experience to get him home safely.

So, it is the situation that makes the difference.

We practice the same skills you practice, we cook over a campfire started with flint and steel, we can forage for wild plants, kill wild game to eat, make wood crafts, twist rope from natural fibers, make shelter from natural materials and even brew a cup of tea. We may seldom use a lighter but we carry one in the bottom of our pack just in case.

The difference I see is that we do go to places that are not accessible by motor car, have no cell towers and are far enough from help that we do have to depend solely on our skills to see us through, it is not a game or historic study for us as it seems to be with you.

We don't go blindly into harms way as you seem to suggest. But we don't fear to go beyond the reaches of civilization either. Stepping outside your comfort zone is a test of your skills, sleeping in a park or some farmers pasture is not.

Again, I am not disparaging bushcraft, only your idea that it is someway superior to or different from survival. You see, I think they are the same, I have said that in every post.

If you can accept the fact that the skills you practice kept your ancestors alive, and you are proof that they did, then you should be able to accept that those skills are survival skills.

[British Red]

Tomayto or Tomarto. I'll stick to what Mors Kochanski calls it till someone who know more than him comes along to correct him. He seemed to pretty much coin the term "bushcraft" but when I was listening to him talk he used the term "survival" far more often.

If its good enough for him to use the terms interchangeably its good enough for me

Red

[Toddy]

This is a semantics problem.

'Survival' here has connotations that don't appear to be apparant to an American mindset.

Survival is just that, barely existing. Not thriving, just getting by. As a situation it is one to get out of asap.

Bushcraft is chilling out in the natural world, thriving in it, enjoying being capable within that world.

The third word, "Surivalist" has even greater connotations here. It implies the adherance to an EOTWAWKI type of mindset. Generally those adherants appear skill poor but hoarding happy, and armed to the teeth besides............whch in itself is something of an anomally in our islands


Now then, why is Ron Hood...............?

I reckon i's simply 'cos he has no relevance to most of us, we don't know much of him past the hype, we don't really do much of the 'survivalist' mindset stuff, and he's not on the list of people we think of to read or to have teach courses we aim to attend.

cheers,
Toddy

[weaver]

Thank you Toddy, I understand your (British) reasoning now.

Yes, we have a different interpretation over here. That seems to be the issue.

Semantics.

But I have to correct one thing, Ron Hood is not a "survivalist", he is a survival instructor.

Which to us over here would be the equivalent of your Mr. Mears over there.

[Toddy]

Now that makes sense, and I think I see why the Hoodlums (yes/ no?) think of him the way they seem to, then.

cheers,

Toddy

[Tadpole]

We practice the same skills you practice, we cook over a campfire started with flint and steel, we can forage for wild plants, kill wild game to eat, make wood crafts, twist rope from natural fibers, make shelter from natural materials and even brew a cup of tea. We may seldom use a lighter but we carry one in the bottom of our pack just in case.
The difference I see is that we do go to places that are not accessible by motor car, have no cell towers and are far enough from help that we do have to depend solely on our skills to see us through, it is not a game or historic study for us as it seems to be with you. .

I’m sorry but unless you do if for a living then it is no more or less a game than it is for us, and looking at your home state, there seems to be few places that are more than a day’s hike from some form of road or track way, it is not like it’s really in the middle of nowhere it is, if you get in to trouble your family will miss you, they the rangers come rescue you, just like the 7th
You drive your cars, you walk in, you camp, you walk out, and you drive home. The only difference I can see is you drive more and walk less.
First you say that we are only playing at being bushcrafters and then you say

Again, I am not disparaging bushcraft,

you , it seems, are being disparaging.

If you can accept the fact that the skills you practice kept your ancestors alive, and you are proof that they did, then you should be able to accept that those skills are survival skills.

My ancestors didn’t just survive, they thrived, some of the less well mannered ones, were even exported to places like America, and Australia, two of my distant relations arrived in the Americas before the Mayflower.

[weaver]

Zoom out a bit Tadpole, America is a big place. Very few people stay in their home state all the time.

I had a friend from Scotland come to visit for a few days, while here he asked if we could drive over to see the Grand Canyon. I guess it looks a lot closer on the map.

I'm sorry that you take my comments in some way I did not intend, from now on I'll say we are "bushcrafters that thrive through adversity".

It is very difficult to explain something when we use the same words but have vastly different meanings.

[dommyracer]

I think the main issue here seems to be people's perception of what 'Bushcrafting' (I hate the word) actually is.

Bushcraft is the subject, I can't apply it as a verb because to my mind it is not something you do, it is something you use

I would be using my Bushcraft whether I was going for a walk in my local wood, going on a week solo trip to Scotland or as part of month expedition in the jungle.

To me, the concept of 'Bushcrafting' as being an activity that involves going to a wood, camping under a tarp and making a pothanger is a load of old rubbish.

The camping out and everything else are the mechanisms I use to be in a place where I can practice and improve my Bushcraft.

If I got lost or into trouble in a forest in the US, or the Siberian Taiga, then I would Survive by using Bushcraft.

[Cairodel]

I think the main issue here seems to be people's perception of what 'Bushcrafting' (I hate the word) actually is.

Bushcraft is the subject, I can't apply it as a verb because to my mind it is not something you do, it is something you use

If I got lost or into trouble in a forest in the US, or the Siberian Taiga, then I would Survive by using Bushcraft.

Here, Here..!!!!

[weaver]

just like the 7th
You drive your cars, you walk in, you camp, you walk out, and you drive home. The only difference I can see is you drive more and walk less.
First you say that we are only playing at being bushcrafters and then you say... you , it seems, are being disparaging.

My ancestors didn’t just survive, they thrived, some of the less well mannered ones, were even exported to places like America, and Australia, two of my distant relations arrived in the Americas before the Mayflower.

Sorry, I'll try not to drag this out much further, just a few more comments.

Why would you think we drive more and walk less? I walk nearly 5 miles just cutting my lawn each week (takes about 4 hours). Sometimes when we go on the AT (2000 mile wilderness trail) we can walk for 20 miles or more without seeing a soul. Yes, as a general rule Americans drive more than Europeans. This is a very mobile society, people like to travel. But we walk too. If you mean just to go camping, you really have no concept of this place.

I am not disparaging of bushcraft, I am questioning your concept of bushcraft.
I like bushcraft, otherwise I wouldn't read and enjoy the words of others here, most of whom I greatly admire, respect and consider to be my friends. By the way, I was invited to join here, I didn't just drop in.

Some of my ancestors were here long before the Mayflower, you might say my ancestors helped yours survive their first years over here. And those of mine thrived in this environment until yours and some of mine as well came along.

I'm through with this now unless someone else has a serious question.

[crazydave]

In the UK, you are right, there is nothing much between sitting cold, wet, miserable hungry, scared, on your own, for three day until you are rescued. Or sitting next to a nice warm fire with a brew and a dry place to sleep for three or four days whilst you are rescued. The first is survival the second is bushcraft, if you can’t tell the difference by now then there is no point being here, you may as well go join a survivalist forum. Just make sure that you wear something bright orange, so no one mistakes you for food and shoots you, or a government agent coming to spy.

if you think that then you are as good as dead as its the same stupid rubbish arguament put across everytime this subject comes up online, once you get face time with someone its a totally different discussion. sitting in the cold prehyperthermic but still beating is surviving, lighting a fire and building a debris hut is survival, whittling a spoon while waiting for rescue is bushcraft. first you survive then you flourish if the flourish part has to be called bushcraft then so be it but telling people that only learning half the subject makes for a purer learning experience is dangerous as people are a lot dumber than we give them credit for. just ask the mountain rescue teams or coastguard.

proper bushcraft should be no different to survival as in a native format its the same thing. its only when western cultures get their hands on it they have to justify it as special. its like mac and pc which is best. who gives a monkeys if both do what you want them to.

when this topic comes up which it will allways do the answer is not to slag the poster off as usual as it just shows you up as feeble minded. if you consider bushcraft to be the next step up from survival then thats fine but dont forget the basics is whats some of us are saying as without them people can get themselves into a lot of trouble. you dont teach edible plants till you teach the safety tests. if bushcraft is supposed to be native and ancient skills brought back to life then why is there so much ventile and titanium involved?

this site carries the name but theres very little true bushcraft on here its just a huge umbrella for dying skills and crafts for that I heartily applaud it. as to survivalist sites well bushcraft can learn a lot from those too as a lot of the techniques are decended from the ones used by the mountain men and native indians.all the questions on here about foraging and food storage are not historical british subjects except for the few unless you get hold of the foraging guide printed in ww2 by the ministry of food. but that comes under renactment if you want to be purist about it ww2 did do wonders for british jam making though.

bushcraft is a marketing term invented by someone who is very good it and has the tv to back him up, the fact that he tried to stop this site proves it was a purely commercial interest, mors wasnt which is why people werent flocking to the woods 20 years ago and thats from the guy himself who admits to writing a survival book. its nothing new as by the current definintion its timeless. by practise though its just amalgamating things from around the world and using them to take the place of something we have no cultural history of unless you are a romany. now gypsycraft would be a very small forum indeed as last time I checked the average caravan doesnt get broadband. bushcraft books are a quarter the size of survival books for good reason - there's less information in them but the brand image makes them sell a few more copies - on ebay its just like adding sas to everything from underpants to toothpicks. all the kit sold and used is adapted from elsewhere and rebranded not allways for the best.

the scout association has it about right you start off learing survival skills then you come back to do bushcraft and then nomad. survival skills as a badge though is 30 odd years old the bushcraft bit was known as backwoods. all of it though was taught as standard and included in the handbooks as field craft.

one thing frequently pointed out is the hostility being so one sided possibly being an insecurity thing as the survival fraternity would rather everyone knew what they needed to know instead of what some people thought they should. the bcuk banner at the moot said 'camping in comfort' which is what it was, tents or hammocks and fires. socially it was great and I look forward to meeting some of them again. 90% of the participants looked just like every scout leader on camp I've seen for 30 years.

back to topic though - ron and karen hoods set out to make their niche and have done a damn good job of it - bushcrafters should watch them if they can as there's few good resources out there. in the same way survival types watch bushcraft videos to learn new tricks or refresh old ones as to them its the same and allways will be.

the best way to avoid 'conflict' is just to accept that there is no difference and if you have a survival manual on your bookshelf then you cant object can you? I've bought several different bushcraft books because the pretty pictures make it easier to teach kids or adults what they want to know. every good self proclaimed bushcrafter I've met has a good solid survival background which they bring forward into their bushcraft by being imaginative and economical. the bad ones are just kit junkies with serious skill deficits. fortunately most are willing to learn what they are lacking and generally the first step is to give them a few more books to read.

I've just been reading the syllabus from several different sites and the differences are semantic - survival course you learn shelters, tracking and trapping. the bushcraft course you learn how to construct a natural shelter, learn native tracking skills and aboriginal trapping techniques but you dont get a free tin to keep your fire kit in and it costs more

the commonest backlash I've noticed for military and survival types is 'they just dont get it' or 'they just wont let it go' let what go? common sense! - we do get it though. we get it and we see right through it, understanding it for what it is and making use of it accordingly as a resource like every other site out there.

if you dont like a healthy debate then dont join in, and certainly dont join in if you cant be objective - ask this on a survival site though and you will get probably get 'same thing really' as a reply

do not ask it on a military site though as you will be offended.

[Toddy]

Don't know where to start on that Dave.

No one tried to stop this forum.
My previous response on semantics still stands.
Please don't stir trouble just to shove the holier than thou.......we prefer to chill out, y'know ?

Military mindset, different thing from a civilian one, and I suspect the military would really rather have a group aware of their own abilities, and limitations, but still perpared to learn, than a group of gungho wannnabees running through the calm of a British woodland armed to the teeth

I think some of the members of some of the 'survival' forums are a bit tee'd off, this forum is busy, active, varied, and doesn't need to do the whole ,"I'm ready for everything' tedium ad nauseum of the most of the survival sites. We just don't feel the need for most of them, but their members come on here sometimes and have a rant about how inadequate bushcraft is compared to survival :rollleyes: :big yawn:
I really don't need to know how to survive a stingray or polar bear attack but by heavens how to get warm and dry when I've ploutered through mud to my knees for two miles 'cos I slipped in a burn and everything is sodden and I know it's going to pour and be a cold frosty night, is all to frequently awfully useful

Personally, I would prefer more of an emphasis on the 'craft' aspects of Bushcraft. Traditional, and innovative, uses of indigenous natural resources. But, I am well aware that people need the comfort level of feeling well equiped (and there're always the shiny new toys ) that means I accept the kit forums will be busy too..........besides, I've bought some good stuff using them as recommendations

I still like the little adage

Survival = get the hell out asap
Bushcraft = chill the hell out asap.


Do folks think we can put this one to rest now ? Or does anyone else desperately feel the need to have their say ?



cheers,
Toddy

[dommyracer]

Do folks think we can put this one to rest now

If by this you mean lock the thread, please don't. If the discussion has reached it's natural course, it will drop down the board. No need to lock....

[weaver]

Or does anyone else desperately feel the need to have their say ?



cheers,
Toddy

No Toddy,

You have the last say.

[Toddy]

No, I didn't meant to lock the thread, but I do think the never ending, ' bushcraft or survival', is detracting from the original question about Ron Hood.

Toddy

[Toddy]

No Toddy,

You have the last say.

Really ? Well, that'll be the day

Sorry, Scottish fascetism coming through there

Seriously, I'm supposed to try to help keep threads on topic.
The original question was,
"Why is Ron Hood not given more credit ?"
Can we return the thread to it's original intent please.

cheers,
Toddy

[scanker]

To get back on the original topic. In all honesty he just hasn't registered on my radar. There's little mention of him on this site and I just haven't come across him or his work elsewhere. Is HoodsWoods (?) to do with Ron Hood?

[Mr Cake]

Regardless of Mr Hoods skills or his contribution to bushcraft/survival (or whatever, I don't really care) he hasn't written any books as far as I'm aware so I'm not likely to encounter his ouevre by chance in my local Waterstones and he does not regularly appear on any commonly seen UK TV channel. I had known about him before from idly googling but to assess his work I'd have to spend my hard earned money to buy DVDs sight unseen which may turn out to be total pants. At least with Mearsy I could watch the interminable repeats of his programmes effectively for free on Sky (I don't but that's a different issue). That's why Ron's contribution such as it is is 'undervalued' - I and most people here in the UK know very little about him and aren't likely to in the future either.

[Forest fella]

Well apart from the last page of comments about the differences of our chosen Hobbie I think we have figured out why he isn't as Highly regarded as other faces in the scene,If I'm right,most people have no idea who Ron Hood is,if so I feel that a great number of UK Outdoorsmen/Women are pretty blind to the wealth of knowledge out there,I think it's partly to do with the fact that we in the UK are blessed with seemingly many more Bushcraft/Survival courses,instructors,tv programs and the like.Personly I try to grab and soak up as much good information on my Hobby's as I can,no matter where the skills come from.

[tom miller]

I have seen most of his dvds and think they are well worth watching.

[sargey]

i like most of what i've seen of his stuff.

like all bushcraft or survival instructors, he has a couple of solutions that are more complicated than the problem.

It seems to me that with any information resource, be it book, video or website, you just have to learn to absorb what is useful. make very sure you understand the less useful stuff, 'cause it might just be that you're simply too thick to get it.

cheers, and.

[crazydave]

I read a thread the other day on a military forum where a bushcrafty type was asking whether a kukri would be any good for the jungle - the commonest answer was save the weight, carry a penknife and some secateurs. hardly the response of the warmongering savage.

I think there is lot of ignorance regards what a military mindset is even amongst those who bear no animosity, the last thing a soldier wants to do is actually fight as thats how his friends get killed. they train for something they hope never comes even though they do want to put it into practise at least once just to prove that they do it for real.

the same goes for what are classed as survival types, first aiders or even scout leaders.

If you dont understand something then dont decide its all bad and nasty. when a survival type asks why you dont think the basics are important its because he is worried about the implications of not having a rounded education and not about being holier than thou - you dont teach a child to read but not write do you? most people thinking first aid will carry some plasters, some paracetamol and maybe a bandage or two. as you get further training you tend to carry more because you change the way you think about injury from a personal to a group responsabilty. Survival is the same, I've seen some bad lessons over the years where the teacher has failed to teach some of the basics just because he was so familiar with the subject he forgot what other needed to learn and just taught what he wanted to teach. everyone should have the same basic skills as it makes it a lot easier to delegate when the time comes. how many here work in places where knowledge is considered power and not to be shared?

some of us have seen what happens when it does go wrong and from what I've seen over the past few years there is a serious general knowledge gap which fortunately due to the crappy overcrowded nature of this land shouldn't be a problem unless you happen to get caught out in a flood or powercut. perversely I picked up my copy of essential bushcraft today to see if there was a decent pic of a swamp bed for a lesson plan. on the front it says 'a handbook of survival skills from around the world' and thats from the word processor of the 'messiah' himself! So seeing as he himself regards bushcraft as a collection of survival skills then surely its the case that by improving your collection of survival skills you can become a better bushcrafter? You will probably never have to chase away a randy emperor penquin from your daughter in south georgia but you might need to know how to imobilise a broken leg or neck following a tumble down a hill, then rustle up a shelter using a few fertiliser bags before lighting a fire using the battery from an electric fence, a lip salve and some sheeps wool

As to the original topic - I do find it odd that we can ignore the americans as they practise survival so must be blood thirsty savages, but we venerate the canadians who are probably the only country to teach it at college level nationally. if you want a mors replacent for next years moot then why not ask one of his contemporys to come along as there's loads of em - Dr Gino Ferri comes highly recommended or even the local boy Mr Akkermans as he seens to be pretty good at primitive skills from what I've seen of him