Biblical Fire

[BOD]

Does anyone know how fire was made in Biblical times? How were cooking hearths lit?

And has anyone read the Bible with a view to passages which mentioned fire-making, man made that is?

Burning with curiousity

Ash

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

...Jesus did it?

[jojo]

...Jesus did it?

Yes, but How?

[Burnt Ash]

Yes, but How?

Something along the lines of: "Let there be fire". And, lo ...there was fire.

Burning Bush
(oops, sorry!)
Burnt Ash

[John Fenna]

There seems to be historical evidence (if not Biblical) for a bow drill type rig being used.
I cannot find the reference at the mo, but it seems to be weight in a frame, pivoting on one end to press down on a spindle/hearth board as per any fire drill dut with a thong worked by hand insead of a bow (pull left hand/right hand to spin the spindle. Pump drills may also have been used.

[Womble]

From the book of the Phrophet Rheymierz:

2.2 Thus did the prophet Rheymierz say unto the Amonites,"knowest thou not how to bring fire forth"? And with much wailing the Amonites replied, "Alas! For that skill has been lost unto us. Cans't thou reveal unto us that which our forefathers knew yet we have abandoned in our hubris?"
2.3 So the Prophet Rheymeirz did consent to bringing the the Amonites back into the ways of the fire. Thanks he gave to the Lord in song; and then, taking two sticks from the ground did produce fire from them.
2.4 Then did the Amonites sing praises to the Prophet Rheymeirz, and there was much rejoicing throughout the land.

[Burnt Ash]

From the book of the Phrophet Rheymierz:

Brilliant!

Burnt Ash

[BOD]

I should have known that on this site there would be many voices calling from the wilderness!

But only one prophet - John - of many years in the wilderness with a true message.


John I saw a reference to a bow drill (a carpenters tool so, yes, it was Jesus who did it ) on a bible studies site but was not sure about their scholarship in paleotechnology as opposed to their knowledge of scripture. Can you explain a bit more about the drill especially the weight and frame (sounds like a carpenters idea of a bow drill)

[Ahjno]

From the book of the Phrophet Rheymierz:

2.2 Thus did the prophet Rheymierz say unto the Amonites,"knowest thou not how to bring fire forth"? And with much wailing the Amonites replied, "Alas! For that skill has been lost unto us. Cans't thou reveal unto us that which our forefathers knew yet we have abandoned in our hubris?"

They must have had knowledge on how to make a microwave-oven-thingy; why on earth (...) would you otherwise 'forget' how to make a fire?

[Wayland]

I've seen the remains of Egyptian bow drills and hearth boards from before the period if that helps any.

[Toddy]

I'm no biblical scholar, but I do know that contemporary people used firebows and spindles and hearths to create fire.

This example was found in Tutankhamun's tomb for instance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient...llery_12.shtml

cheers,
Toddy

Oooops, cross post with Wayland, sorry.

[BOD]

They must have had knowledge on how to make a microwave-oven-thingy; why on earth (...) would you otherwise 'forget' how to make a fire?

At this risk of side tracking my own thread Ahjno, of course they did.

The Lord provided -

Genesis 15:17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.

18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land,.....

The power of prayer

[John Fenna]

Suggested "Biblical" fire starter.
Hey - I did fashion design not tech drawing OK?!

[Toadflax]

There's a page from the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford here: http://www.prm.ox.ac.uk/fire.html. I'll see if I can pop over there at lunchtime today and have a look at some of the exhibits and let you know what I find.


Geoff

[match]

The burning bush is actually a plant common in those parts of the world - a member of the Dictamnus family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictamnus).

These plants have highly volatile oils over the leaves, which repel insects, but can also catch fire in hot weather.

Probably a good tinder material at least!

[beachlover]

I have searched a few bibles and as far as I can see there are no direct references to the methods used, but;

There is evidence that a permanent source of fire was kept burning in temples. This would have been available to the community members. Although clearly there for sacrifice, Leviticus and Deuteronomy also contain many references to maintaining hygeine, cooking, food preparation and safety, crop rotation, as well as aspects of campcraft. The importance of keeping the flame alight on the altar was probably as practical as it was a part of worship. It has of course been carried on and is represented in todays Church as the candle near to the tabernacle.


Leviticus 6:12
The fire on the altar must be kept burning; it must not go out. Every morning the priest is to add firewood and arrange the burnt offering on the fire and burn the fat of the fellowship offerings on it.

Leviticus 6:13
The fire must be kept burning on the altar continuously; it must not go out.


There is also evidence that fire was carried from place to place, but not detailing what was used.

Genesis 22:6
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife.


There are of course plenty of references to fire coming from Heaven (lightning) and setting fire to things too

[BOD]

Beachlover,

My understanding is that the fire for the burnt offering was distinct from all other fire uses and even the ash had to be disposed by the priest according to ritual. It was not I think a case of "Can I have a light please mate?".

Could be wrong of course.

John,

thanks for the drawing of the biblical firestarter. I do see the hand of the carpenter (if not The Carpenter) in that. Some time ago I drilled some holes for bolts using a bow drill while making a buck saw.

If I wanted precision and alignment a heavy rock in such a frame as you drew might have been the logical answer.

Thanks for all the answers so far it has been enlightening

[mr dazzler]

Genesis 22:6
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife.

Is it at all possible that he used a flint and the back of his knife to get something going. At least tinder shouldn't have been a problem

OR maybe they had a certain way of keeping embes alive till the next day, maybe a special wood or bush that burned slow? Because of course (acording to stereotype's ) the women would of been last to leave the fire and first to see to it in the morning to cook the bread for those hungry men

[BOD]

beachlover,
just reread my post and realised that it could read as a criticism of your research. It is not meant to be and apologies in advance if it came across that way.

I do appreciate your help and the references. Tahnks

[beachlover]

Is it at all possible that he used a flint and the back of his knife to get something going. At least tinder shouldn't have been a problem

OR maybe they had a certain way of keeping embes alive till the next day, maybe a special wood or bush that burned slow? Because of course (acording to stereotype's ) the women would of been last to leave the fire and first to see to it in the morning to cook the bread for those hungry men

I can find no elaboration in any of the study books, bible commentaries, dictionaries, or other texts. It would seem that "carried in his own hands the fire and the knife" means just that, so I would suggest that the slow burner / ember is more likely than the flint.
Incidentally, I also found out that while the etymology of the Hebrew word for fire is a bit uncertain, it is thought that it derives from a Semitic root meaning "to be sociable and friendly."

[mr dazzler]

I mean some of those bible people were nomadic, they must of had a possibles pouch of some sort? And an intimate understanding of the local plants etc I dont suppose they carried a lot apart from essential's and there tents, tending the flock's must of been a priority as well, that and finding water

[gregorach]

Is it at all possible that he used a flint and the back of his knife to get something going. At least tinder shouldn't have been a problem

Well, if you're talking about Abraham, then that's Bronze Age, isn't it? (Biblical "history" is not exactly my strong point... )

[Toadflax]

I've just got back from the Pitt Rivers Museum and there is a fascinating collection of fire making tools there, spanning 2000 BC to the early 1900s. Much of the collection dates from the late 1800s to the early 1900s but there is a wooden hearth, with a drilled impression in it that dates from 2000 BC.





Aside from that there are hand drills, thong drills, bow drills, fire ploughs, fire saws, 'thong' saws. I'm pretty sure that steel dates from post biblical times, but there were flint and steel sets from all over the world (Japan, Africa, Egypt, Peru) so it is quite possible that flint and pyrites may have been used. If you want to see an extensive collection of firemaking tools, this is well worth a visit. Adjacent cases contain cordage and woven baskets, which may be of interest to bushcrafters.

However, I'd be inclined to say that some form of drill is the most likely, given the relatively dry climate of the middle east and the fact that drill firelighting was used in ancient Egyptian times and would therefore have been known about in New Testament times. However, some of the drills were from Greenland, so a cold, damp climate does not preclude the use of friction firelighting (as many BCUK members prove on a daily basis!).

Although we bushcrafters seem to like the process of firelighting, I would have thought that when a fire forms an essential part of your life, you would generally try to ensure that the fire, or at least embers, are maintained, so that the need to go through the process of drilling for an ember is not something that you would be doing every day.


Geoff

[beachlover]

beachlover,
just reread my post and realised that it could read as a criticism of your research. It is not meant to be and apologies in advance if it came across that way.

None taken

[demographic]

From the book of the Phrophet Rheymierz:

2.2 Thus did the prophet Rheymierz say unto the Amonites,"knowest thou not how to bring fire forth"? And with much wailing the Amonites replied, "Alas! For that skill has been lost unto us. Cans't thou reveal unto us that which our forefathers knew yet we have abandoned in our hubris?"
2.3 So the Prophet Rheymeirz did consent to bringing the the Amonites back into the ways of the fire. Thanks he gave to the Lord in song; and then, taking two sticks from the ground did produce fire from them.
2.4 Then did the Amonites sing praises to the Prophet Rheymeirz, and there was much rejoicing throughout the land.

Don't tell me they made him a prophet just for showing them how to light a fire

Easily pleased eh?

[John Fenna]

Un-reasonable prophet?

[Greg]

There is a fundamental belief that Sodom & Gomora were built above huge surface oil & natural gas pockets. - BIG FIRE!
It is believed that temple fires were fueled by oil of some sort or another. The use of flint being struck on a hard rock would be worth looking at as a basis of fire starting. This would be enough to start a fire fuelled by volatile oil!
You also have to think of the trade routes (the silk road for instance) which would have brought many 'magics' from the orient, and some of this might have been the black powder created in Chin a couple of thousand years ago!
Just a few thoughts of my own to ponder over!

[JonnyP]

From the book of the Phrophet Rheymierz:

2.2 Thus did the prophet Rheymierz say unto the Amonites,"knowest thou not how to bring fire forth"? And with much wailing the Amonites replied, "Alas! For that skill has been lost unto us. Cans't thou reveal unto us that which our forefathers knew yet we have abandoned in our hubris?"
2.3 So the Prophet Rheymeirz did consent to bringing the the Amonites back into the ways of the fire. Thanks he gave to the Lord in song; and then, taking two sticks from the ground did produce fire from them.
2.4 Then did the Amonites sing praises to the Prophet Rheymeirz, and there was much rejoicing throughout the land.

That is very good John.....

[demographic]

I don't believe I missed that first time round

D'oh.

[Jodie]

a) What a fascinating read
b) I really must go to this Pitt Rivers museum - is it the one with the podcast you
can download and play on your own media player as you walk around? I think it
featured in a programme on 'half an hour in a museum in the UK' which was a
fascinating series I caught a few months ago.
c) Hello Jon P, not seen you for a while hope you are well