Oh dear, I just chopped my leg! (scenario)

[Roving Rich]

Now i don't suggest you try this on a major axe wound....
But apparently Yarrow - the little fluffy feathery stuff found growing among grass, is really good for staunching the flow of blood. I have been told that you pick it, chew it up then apply it directly to the wound. It is supposed to slow the flow and help it clot. I haven't tried it yet, but bare it in mind, and try it next time you have a minor cut. I'd like to know how well it works, so any volunteers ):

Rich

[Viking]

Ok let's change the scenario abit

Your deep in the wilderness miles away from civilisation and the same thing happens with the axe.

You have no phone and no other means of getting help, to get out it would take a arduous 3 day hike and seeing as you had an axe imbedded in your leg a few minutes ago that seems pretty impossible, you have not cut an artery but you are losing blood fast

You are in an area surrounded by mossy vegetation which you use as a dressing (your FAK has only small bandages)

At night you get a fever and the next day you realise your wound has been infected.....Dun Dun Duuuuuuunnnn!!

What Now????
What would you use instead of moss if it was available??
What kit would you take so you can make sure that such a scenario never arrives??
How would you prevent infection??

If you are going to use moss, this has to be dried and cleaned before it can be used. If I would have forgot my first aid I would use a cooton cloth t-shirt or whatever i would have with me and make sure there is a pressure on the wound.
Then you got to analyze the situation. If there is areally deep wound I would check the map for the closest and easiest way to civilisation. If it would be a minor cut and I would be in control of it, I would crawl down in my sleeping bag, drink something warm and get me something to eat and prepare for a long journey the nest day.

I cut my hand with an axe a couple of months back, it was a pretty deep wound and there was a lot of blood, but with a good first aid kit I could handle it all well and then get eat some food and crawl down i my sleeping bag to get some sleep and the nest day I walked back.

Things like this happens when least expect so be well prepared so you don´t have to worry what to do if you would cut yourself.

[Adi007]

Once again I'm going to say that prevention is better than cure. Take steps to prevent the injury in the first place but if that didn't work, take steps to prevent infection before it sets in. This includes thorough cleaning of the wound with irrigation of clean water, water with puritabs added or potassium permanganage. If I had antibiotics in my FAK, I would take a dose early, again, just in case (I would take care here and only carry something that I knew I wasn't allergic to or have a reaction to).

Would I stay in the area and await rescue or try to make my way out? Dunno, a lot depends on what I know of the area ... Is it popular? Is it out of the way? How close is civilization? What signalling tools do I have? How do I feel? Does anyone know where I am? How long until I'm declared missing?

Gathering intelligence about the area you are going to go to is vital ... think from many levels and angles. Think about accidents and escape routes. Think about the routes and roads in the area and try to accertain how busy they are. Gather as much info as you can before you are there ... chances are you won't need most of it but if you do you'll make desicions on the ground based on this, which is a lot better than guesses!

[leon-1]

Ok let's change the scenario abit

Your deep in the wilderness miles away from civilisation and the same thing happens with the axe.

You have no phone and no other means of getting help, to get out it would take a arduous 3 day hike and seeing as you had an axe imbedded in your leg a few minutes ago that seems pretty impossible, you have not cut an artery but you are losing blood fast

You are in an area surrounded by mossy vegetation which you use as a dressing (your FAK has only small bandages)

What Now????
What would you use instead of moss if it was available??
What kit would you take so you can make sure that such a scenario never arrives??
How would you prevent infection??

Most infections in this part of the world do not take that sort of effect that quickly.

The principles are exactly the same, you need to staunch the blood flow, and clean the area.

It doesn't matter that you are not carrying a field dressing, you say you have small bandages, even a small bandage will normally go around a limb a number of times, is the bandage crepe or open weave, if it is open weave you will have to improvise a sterile pad, the only purpose of the pad is to help staunch the blood flow by allowing it to coagulate (moss will do the job).

Compression and elevation are to be used, most people carry some form of pain killer, do you carry something that is based on Ibuprofen? If you do use it since this is also an anti inflammatory which will reduce inflammation in the wound area.

If when you dressed the wound in the first place you washed it out with water (preferably fresh) or water with a small amount of potassium permanganate in it, you should of sterilised the area of the injury.

Rest, calm and warm fluids for shock, there is a good chance that when you get up in the morning, you will be able to continue your trip.

If you cannot continue did you put in a trace of your route to the local authority (mountain rescue, coastgaurd or wife)? Did you inform people how long it would take? Have you left actions to be carried out in the event that you are not in touch in a certain period of time? Do you carry anything in the way of safety equipment apart from an ill equipped first aid kit?

These are all considerations for planning a route, even if you are only out for 3 days/nights someone should be aware of these things, especially if you are out alone.

[JakeR]

panic

[Martyn]

Hi... :biggthump

I have something to add. In Rambo (think it was no. 2) he opens a bullet and puts the gunpowder in the wound. I've been told that this was wrong. (And hurts like sh*t)

In 24 hours (if you've seen season 3) the young guy takes a hot ironpiece and 'stops the bleeding' by burning the wound in his hand. Everybody should know that it's wrong and yet I haven't seen any 1. aid book who has mentioned this. I'm not a doctor, but burning the wound only makes it worse, in my mind. :wink:

Dont do it!

You'll just make a damned great mess that'll cause you a helluva lot of problems - remember, Rambo is fantasy.

Yes we still use cauterization in hospital, but not searing hot iron bars. The process is called Diathermy, and involves an instrument that looks like a large pair of forceps (tweezers), which are connected to an electrical supply. The tips of the diathermy forceps get very hot. The surgeon makes an incision, then goes along the face of the cut tissue, pinching all the little capilaries that have been sliced open with the Diathermy forceps - a little plume of smoke and the capillary is cauterized shut with no damage to the surrounding tissue. But they dont do this with big vessels, they are either clamped for the duration of the surgery, or re-directed if they are needed to provide a vital supply to something.

[TheViking]

Hi...

Yes, i know. :biggthump I would never handle gunpowder without military knowledge, or the like! :wink: (Maked a bomb myself once from fireworks powder :shock: Good advice from me: don't do it! Though it's exiting, but it's also unstabil and the size of my bomb was enough to blow of an arm at least)

And here we go: never burn a wound yourself. Only with the necessary equipment and knowledge...! :biggthump :wink:

[EdS]

Been there see that and got the holes in my trousers - billhook and axe.

bung in some salt - hurts like hell but steralises and stops most of the bleeding. Wipe round the edge with a very small amount of whisky form hip flask (don't want to waste to much) to clean up the blood.

Leave to air dry them super glue it skin back together. Works every time and heals well.

[ScottC]

As if by magic whilst I was out trying to make a deadfall in my garden i cut my thumb on my axe, it's not serious but thanks to my FAK that I had close to hand i was able to quickly treat it and stop the bleeding quite fast aswell as guarding it against infection as even the smallest of cuts can get infected and cause major problems. However if that's the way the fates want to play it then heres another scenario

A young woodsman nicks his finger whilst using his axe and using his vast medical knowledge :wink: treats it quickly and efficiently. Because of his close shave that could have been far worse he is extra careful around knives and axes and NEVER has an accident involving any sharp implements again. :super: ): :wink:

Oh yeah and he becomes filthy rich and very popular with the ladies!
(bit carried away there)

[den]

super glue it skin back together. Works every time and heals well.

Ah good old super glue. I’ve used it myself before on small cuts, works a treat. I’ve also glued a tooth back together in the field for six months. I wouldn’t recommend anyone else try this. I did mention this to the dentist who laughed and didn’t appear to have a problem with it.
Cheers
Den :-P

[alick]

I would never handle gunpowder without military knowledge, or the like!

I'd say the gunpowder debate is all pretty irrelevant. Modern cartridges (rifle, pistol or shotgun) are not filled with gunpowder but with various grades and quantities of nitrocellulose "powder". This is quite stable but explosive if ignited in a closed space. If a spark is dropped on a small quantity (less than a teaspoon full) loosely piled in the open, it just burns (very very quickly). I've burnt off spoilt powder and doubt it would be much use as tinder because it burns too fast.

As someone mentioned, it is very hard to pull the bullet out of a cartridge. If you ignite a round while trying to pull it apart, the case WILL explode, so DON'T. When making or reloading ammunition as I used to do as a target shooter, the very occasional mis-assembled rounds had to be dismantled to make them safe. This is done with a kinetic bullet puller, not pliers. Not something you usually carry into the field .

Shotgun shells on the other hand are easily cut or broken open and their powder is the slowest burning. I still advise against it though because of the risk of igniting the powder or primer. Except for out and out survival situations it's too easy to have a better alternative.

Alick

[alick]

Also, any experience of QuikClot?

Adi, you can buy quickclot here in the uk
http://dyna-med.co.uk/quikclot.html

I've wondered about it myself. I first saw it mentioned on donrearic.com - an American site dedicated to self defense against serious violence. It is described under the first-aid section.

Cheers

[RovingArcher]

[QUOTE=leon-1]Now you have a burn injury and burns are highly susceptible to infection, on this you would need to talk to a medical proffessional. I know that cauterization is still used in a medical/controlled enviroment, but to what extent is another matter.QUOTE]

Placing raw honey directly onto a burn will help to soothe the pain and because bacteria cannot live in raw honey, it will stop any infection from getting into the damaged area. It will also help the healing process and in many instances eliminates scaring. Good stuff to have along when you need a jolt of quick clean burning fuel for energy or other medicinal purposes. Sweetens fairly well too. :wink:

[leon-1]

Thanks RA, I will have to include some in my FAK, however will have to stop myself from putting it on everything edible/drinkable, the last thing I want is dental hassles. ):

[Martyn]

Placing raw honey directly onto a burn will help to soothe the pain and because bacteria cannot live in raw honey, it will stop any infection from getting into the damaged area. It will also help the healing process and in many instances eliminates scaring. Good stuff to have along when you need a jolt of quick clean burning fuel for energy or other medicinal purposes. Sweetens fairly well too. :wink:

If the burn is bad, all you should use is lots of cold water and clingfilm. If you have an aqueous burns gel in your FAK, then use that under the clingfilm. It's true, honey impregnated dressings are sometimes used for certain types of injuries in some institutions or so I gather, but as far as I know, the medical literature is inconclusive about it's use. You certainly should not use honey on a bad burn just before calling for medical help, you'll just end up in an awful lot of pain as they try and sponge off the sticky, gooey mess from your burnt flesh.

You know, I know everone is searching for a bushcrafty, medical, magic bullet here, but it doesnt exist. You'd all be well advised to forget all about turniquets, gunpowder, superglue, sphagnum moss, burning yourself with hot irons, honey, self-sutureing or home brain surgery. leave it to Rambo and the professional medics. There's a lot of good advice in this thread, but there are a lot of "fringe" suggestions too that are frankly harmful or even potentially life threatening. There are very, very few places in the UK where you cant get prompt and excellent medical attention in very short order. If you need it, use it. You *might* get away with using some of the "fringe" suggestions, but then again, you might not. You may very well end up doing far more bad than good. Do yourself a favour, use FA dressings that you've got from Boots. :wink:

My professional advice is this:
If you've got a serious wound, apply direct and firm pressure, use a blood stopper bandage if you have one, if you dont, use the cleanest piece of material you have available. Elevate your wounded limb if possible and call for help.
If there is another health care professional on this forum with different advice, I'd love to hear it.

You might have an uncle who was in the SAS during the Crimea, and after having his leg blown off with a cannon, was perfectly alright just gaffer-taping it back on but you wont be so lucky. Just raise a glass to his superb courage and fortitude and when it's your turn, call an ambulance. :roll: :biggthump

[Steve K]

Very well put Martyn, I only wish I was as goo with words.

May I ask what your profession is?

On a slightly different tact (??), earlier in the year I was on a course with Woodlore one of the other students managed to cut himself pretty well and had to be stri-stripped, but the guys from Woodlore applied a brownish (I think) liquid, normally used for something quite different over the cut because it performs like a glue (again I think that was the purpose??).
Does anybody know what it was?

[Martyn]

Very well put Martyn, I only wish I was as goo with words.

May I ask what your profession is?

I'm an RN. I work in an intensive care unit which specialises in the treatment of multiple injuries resulting from trauma.

On a slightly different tact (??), earlier in the year I was on a course with Woodlore one of the other students managed to cut himself pretty well and had to be stri-stripped, but the guys from Woodlore applied a brownish (I think) liquid, normally used for something quite different over the cut because it performs like a glue (again I think that was the purpose??).
Does anybody know what it was?

Sounds like betadine - superb antiseptic, highly recommended. It's basically iodine with povidone added to reduce the sting. It doesnt glue anything, but does form a sort of skin over whatever you paint in on.

Superglue or cyanoacrylate is used in hospital, in the form of a medical preparation called dermabond. But you need training in it's application. What worries me when I see it (superglue) recommended, is that some 14 year old lad is gonna stick a tube in his FAK and then pour it into an open wound one day. He's then gonna need surgery to remove it. For the same reasons, suturing isn't recommended. Suturing is done all the time, but you wont see it taught on first aid courses, because of the skill needed to do it properly and recognise when it's appropriate and inappropriate. There is simply no need. If your wound is bad enough to need stitches, then you should go to hospital and get it stitched there.

Regarding burns of all types, you should only use aqueous based solutions. nothing else is used in hospital or by paramedics. You should soak the burn in as much free flowing, clean, cold water as you can for as long as you can - 10 minutes MINIMUM. The object is to cool down the burnt flesh and minimise/stop further tissue damage. After a really good soaking with cold water, the wound should be protected with something with minimal adherance - cling film is perfect. Proprietry burns dressings are just sterile clingfilm. Again, the object is to minimise further tissue damage, while protecting the suseptible tissues from infection. Hospitals stopped using things like Jellonet (a vaseline impregnated gauze dressing) some time ago. It adheres to the wound and it also insulates it a little - both undesireable charicteristics. Dont use honey! It may have some properties that are useful, but it's sticky and insulative. It will keep the heat in the wound, exacerbating tissue damage and it'll be hell to get off (you'll take your skin off with the bandage).