Canoe Project 2!

[jon r]

Thants right im building another!
For those of you who havnt seen my first canoe, take a look http://www.bushcraft.ridgeonnet.com/...0a%20canoe.htm

I learnt such a lot from building my last canoe and want to build a bigger and better one!

One of the problems i had with my last canoe was that i made the base of the ribs too round and the canoe ended up a little too tippy for my liking. I have fitted an outrigger and now that problem is solved. This time i want to make the ribs flat on the bottom and not have an out-rigger.

This time i am planning to make the ribs from Willow shoots about 1/2 inch thick.

Is a rib like this still too rounded?




And then there is the gunnels. Last time i used round gunnels. That worked pretty well. This time do you think i should use 2 peices of wood for each gunnel and fit flat ribs between them? If you get what i mean.


Please help im eager to get started!!

Many thanks

Jon

[jojo]

Though you would! That looks a good shape, both sides are the same, makes it easier for the canoe to go on a straight line . I don't know the dimensions, but I would go for something wider and not so deep as your first one. How long is this one going to be?

[Dynamite Dan]

can you make the curves a bit shaper and not as rounded? that will give more surface area in the water, but improve stability.

[SOAR]

Dont know much about cannoe making, but I personaly can't wait to see Cannoe no 2. Good luck fella

[Singeblister]

Dont really know much about building one but hats off to you for going for it and good luck , your last one looked great though

[KAE1]

Doesn't look far out to me. Check these designs for comparison
http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_design.html

[jojo]

How big are you thinking to make this canoe?
Only justseen the bit about the gunnells. don't know how I missed it.
I don't see why not. You could have two battens, tied together at regular intervals and fit the ends of the ribs into the gaps. You could cut the ends wedge shapes to fit in the gap. i'll look later tonight to write some more, I am a work at the moment

[jon r]

Thanks jojo!

I have some wood suitable for the gunnels but it is factory cut wood so i'm a little reluctant to use it. Do you think it would be better to use all materials that i find in the woods? At the end of the day the Canvas and tacks are not natural so do you think i may as well use machine cut wood too? Its a tricky one to decide! Let me know what you think.

Also if i have 2 gunnels on each side i wont be able to use the 1/2 inch willow i was talking about, I really liked that idea aswell.

Using the willow will be a much faster and easier option.

Once i know how im going to make the gunnels i can start

Thanks for the help!

Jon

[jojo]

At the end of the day, wood is wood, a natural product, even factory cut wood. So I would use the factory wood if it's suitable for your purpose. It's already cut, might as well use it and you don't need to cut some more.

Why couldn't you use the willow in the same way you already haver on your first canoe

How big is the canoe going to be?

[jon r]

Ok i think i am going to use sawn wood.

This canoe is going to be about 3.2m long and 100cm wide (Does that sound a good size to you? Whad depth do you seggest?)

My last canoe was 2.7m long and 70cm wide so the new one is going to be a little bigger. And if the bottom is flat in the new one (unlike the last one) i should have more room inside the canoe.

I didnt use willow on my last canoe. I carved flat ribs from Hazel wood.

The wood i have for the gunnels is 1/2 inch wide and 2 inch deep. I have 4 pieces of that. If i only used two pieces of wood for the gunnels i wouldnt be able to fit the ribs into 3/8" wholes like i did before because a single piece of wood is too thin. (i hope im making sense). Because this is the case, i dont know how im going to fit the round willow ribs.

Could you explain more about how you would fit ribs between the two parts of one gunnel and do they have to be flat ribs to be able to do this?

Thanks Jojo! If you can answer all that you are a star!!

Thanks!!!!

Jon

[jojo]

Well Jon, you nearly had the answers to your questions.. I wrote a long spill about it and then tried to post it: censored: darn b****y thing refused to upload, I assume problems with the site. I was most displeased Anyway, I am too tired to start again. I am going to bed

[Wink]

It may be worth watching Ray Mears Bushcraft Survival series two, the birch bark canoe episode. He spends the whole episode making a canoe out of natural materials, with all the details being covered with closeups of the action! I'm sure that some of the techniques would transfer over to the materials you are using. Good luck, can't wait to see the pictures!

[Matt Weir]

Good luck Jon,

I enjoyed the 'my 1st canoe' thread from the pieces of wood right through to the pictures of you grinning your chops off on the water in it

[rapidboy]

Looking forward to seeing this one Jon, last one was a great project.

[jon r]

sorry to hear about that Jojo. Pretty dam annoying that!

[jojo]

Ok. Here we go again, I hope I can submit the reply this time

I would suggest that 100cm is a bit wide for a canoe 3.2m long, 3.2m is about the size of a "pack" canoe, and they would tend to be about 85cm wide. Also I would keep the depth to no more than 12" for that size.

I would keep the frame as per the one in your pic. I think they are a good shape. I would use the willow for the frames too.

For the gunnels, I would use two layers of 1/2" as you have them anyway. You could either glue the two layers together, perhaps using some "gorilla" glue, that's polyurethane glue and is very good and waterproof. You would not need to buy very much of it. But glue them together when already bent, I wouldn't glue them straight and them try to bend them, cos you would have a job bending them then!

The other option would be to stitch the two battens together. I would definitely use some artificial sinew for that, it's very strong and also has some elasticity to it, which means when you tie the knots together you can put some pressure on the two battens and they stay together tightly. If you decide you want to use that option I'll draw you some sketches.

Then drill the holes for the frames. You would need to alternate the butt end of the frames ie: thick end, thin end, thick end and so on. Hope this makes sense. It is possible to obtain a very fair hull shape that way.
To keep all the frames in a straight line on the bottom, you would need to use a temporary straight batten along the centreline of the canoe, (it would need to be upside down) then you can install your ribs. When you've done all the frame, you can start fixing some longitudinal battens, ie length way to keep all the frames in place and also to provide space between the frames and the canvas. you could use either some soft wood or some more willow branches for that.

Hope this makes sense

[jon r]

Thats all great advice Jojo! thankyou!

I am going to stick the gunnels together like you said rather than stitching them. All your advice is clear and i understand what you are sayuing so a big thanks for your time and expert knowledge!

I am going into town on monday so i'll get either some outdoor wood glue or some gorilla glue!

12 inches sounds really shallow! are you sure about that! thats only 30cm! You know what you are on about !

Many thanks Jojo!!!

Jon

[jon r]

Ive stuck the wood together to make the gunnels. So far im really pleased with how things are going, i know ive only done a bit of gluing but the shape is looking good!

Just got to wait 24 hours now dor it to set fully. I couldnt gind any Gorilla Glue so i got some weatherfroof evo-stick wood glue for exterior use. I think that will do the trick nicely.



Jon

[jon r]

Can i have advice on how to fix the gunnel ends together?

[jojo]

I didn't see your post from yesterday must be getting old......... That's got a very nice shape already.

the first thing to do now is to create some flat surfaces between the two side gunnells. The easiest way is to use a saw. Preferably a tenon saw!! If you push the saw between the two ends repeatedly you eventually get reasonably flat surfaces, you nedd to do that from the inside of the frame towards the outside to work with the grain of the wood. If that's not clear, I'll do a drawing for you.

I would not glue the gunnells together yet, as it would be better to fit the stems in between the gunnells pieces. Perhaps i'll do adrawing here anyway. I'll post it in a while...

[jojo]

Hopefully this will clarify the text



If you've got a bit of this missing, click the scroll wheel in the middle of the mouse, you should then be able to view the missing bit.

I meant to write two layers of 1/2" ply for the stems.

[jon r]

Thank you again Jojo!! I cant thank you enough for all this advice! Hope it isnt too much of a bother!

Great didgrams there! I'll go gat started on that straight away!

Many thanks!

Jon

[jon r]

ok, ive sawn the Gunnel ends so they join propperly. (It took ages!! )

The top sketcch shows how things look so far. When i fit the stem between the gunnels should i fill the areas laveled as 'A' with two bits of wood?

Hope you get what i mean

Thanks!

Jon

[jon r]

Or how about a stem and stern like the one in this picture?

http://www.qsl.net/ws8g/canstringers.jpg

That would work well and would save having to bent wood etc.

[jojo]

If your gunnels are 1" wide, that would make your stem about 1/4"

I would suggest you'll need stems at least as wide as the gunnels are thick. They need to have a certain amount of strengh as they are part of the structure that will keep the skin taut. If you use 2 layers of ply, you could make then a good couple of inches wide. If you use a willow branch, I would choose one which is about 1 1/4" diameter, bend it to the desired shape, it probably will take a while to dry and stay that shape,them shave them up a bit to flatten the sides so the gunnels will fit fairly well to the stems. If you make the stem longer, that means you can have higher ends to the canoe. If you put the false gunnels as well, it reinforces the end of the canoe, and add beautiful curves!



The pics are not good quality but you'll get the idea.



On this canoe, I used the same gunnels, false gunnel and laminated stems. I just like nice curves

[jon r]

More quality diagrams and explainations! Top man!

Does the canoe in that picture have willow ribs? That looks amazing! If i could make a canoe half as good i would be dam pleased with myself! Your canoes, knives and signs all amaze me!

How far are those ribs apart?

[jojo]

More quality diagrams and explainations! Top man!

Does the canoe in that picture have willow ribs? That looks amazing! If i could make a canoe half as good i would be dam pleased with myself! Your canoes, knives and signs all amaze me!

How far are those ribs apart?

The ribs on this canoe are steam bent oak, 3/4" wide by 1/4" thick. They are about 8" apart. For the willow ribs they need to be about 4" apart, native people used the width of their hand as the right space on theirs. Not canoes, but their skin on frame kayaks, which are closest to the one you're building in technique.

[jon r]

I've decided to use plywood for the stems. Ive got it all worked out but cant use the electric jigsaw untill it dries up outside otherwise it could be shocking! i'll post more pics when ive done that.

Jon

[jon r]

Cut the stems today from the plywood. I fitted the thwarts yesterday and ive drilled the wholes in the gunnels for the ribs to slot into. So im making good progerss.

Jon





Just another 24 hours till i can do any more!

[jojo]

Looks good..

Tell you what though, it would be easier for you, particularly when you start the ribs to have a couple of simple trestles to place your gunnels frame onto.
Two reasons really, it's better on your knees and back (well better for mine anyway , but also, its much easier to see that the ribs are all lining up nicely and fairly.
Also the ground might not be all that flat and you might well put quite a twist in your canoe. With two trestles, you can line up the tops and be sure to have a straight canoe!

The older I get, the higher the trestles get...