Wounds.

[Andy B]

Hi,

Was out the other day using my new knife and had a bit of an accident ops: .

Sustained a nasty bleeding cut to the finger :shock: . I have done first aid many times and knew exactly what do do.

Of course I had no tissue and just had to use finger pressure to stop the bleeding. But as you might know from experience skin is very sticky and after ten minutes i took my finger away and the cut opened again.

Fair enough so i walked back to the car to my first aid kit...sorted in 1 minute.

My question is, what if there is no car and you have nothing to compress the wound to stop the bleeding. I was actually thinking I would have had a naster bleeding wound with nothing to clean it and nothing to cover it to keep out infection. Of course in an extreme case i Could have ripped a bit of my shirt etc but it was to good to rip :wink:

A bushcraft answer please.

Cheers and thanks for your interest.

[falling rain]

Quite simply. If you pick up ANY cutting you take your personal first aid kit with you..... It's as simple as that.

[Wayne]

If you have a nasty enough wound i think your last thoughts would be the cost of a shirt. Still theres not much of an excuse not to have a basic first aid kit with you at all times. There is always plenty of natural materials to help bind a wound. if your bleeding that bad your priority must be to stem the flow let the nearest medical facility worry about infection etc.

There are more qualified people on here to give current advice.

[Pathos]

not exactly bushcraft, more scouting, but I have used a hanky. I always carry two, an old scout thing I think.

It is important to carry a 1st aid kit though, even a simple one can be very useful. Mine goes in my billy, then whenever i cook, heat water, i then have the kit to hand, esp useful when hot water, fires and knives are out to get ya!

Paul

[leon-1]

You could have used a piece of cord, by wrapping around/binding along the finger (not hard enough to totally cutt off blood flow, it's not a tourniqeut) you can reduce the blood flow to a degree where nature can take its course and allow the blood to coagulate.

As with most bleeds you can elevate the injured limb to a level above the heart, which should also reduce blood flow.

Control your breathing and stay calm, this will keep your heart rate lower keeping blood pressure levels low and reducing the blood flow.

In cold climates or near cold water ( icy preferably), if you subject the injured item to extreme cold there is a bodilly effect called peripheral shutdown (normally seen in shock) that causes the capiliaries and veins in extremities to be closed off.

Most people have seen this effect your hands get damn cold and it takes you ages to get the "BLOOD BACK INTO THEM".

These are a few suggestions.

[TAHAWK]

In addition to items mentioned above, I have seen the following used as "bandage": leaves; plastic bags of assorted kinds; part of a leather belt; part of a nylon jacket; part of a nylon pack; bicycle innertube; waxed paper.

These were variously (more-or-less) held in place by: rubber bands; tape of all sorts (duct; electrical; paper); fishing line; belts; string; safety pins, regular pins, needles; aluminum foil; wire; nylon stocking.

All this inventiveness could have been avoided if the good advice above about first aid kits had been known to, and followed by, those involved.
I never leave the house without a first aid kit and carry a pretty substantial one in the car.

[Andy B]

Yeah I appreciate that I should have had a first aid kit.

Anyway all of your suggestions are excellent. The point was natural resources e.g yarrow ca be used to stem blood flow for example, I think that wa from Ray Mears book.

Anyway I also heard about a fella using superglue to glue a cut shut, apparently superglue was developed by the U.S military for use in vietnam for that exact purpose. Saying that I wouldnt use it just in case it was all B.S.

Cheers lads

[Wayne]

There is a lot of information about using super glue etc for cuts over on british blades first aid thread.

[Tumper]

For small cuts, and less serious bleeding wounds, common plantain is good. The leaves staunch the wound, and can be wrapped around and held in place like a plaster.

I never leave home without a basic first aid kit. If I'm out for longer than a day, I take a full kit.

Does anyone else secrete items of kit (first aid, nav, and fire...the odd packet of mints et around thier pockets, and pack, in addition to thier main kit? My father, and grandfather always did this, and I've always done the same.

[Brynglas]

Yeah I appreciate that I should have had a first aid kit.

Anyway all of your suggestions are excellent. The point was natural resources e.g yarrow ca be used to stem blood flow for example, I think that wa from Ray Mears book.

Anyway I also heard about a fella using superglue to glue a cut shut, apparently superglue was developed by the U.S military for use in vietnam for that exact purpose. Saying that I wouldnt use it just in case it was all B.S.

Cheers lads

For relatively small, CLEAN wounds superglue is fine, but it is vital that the wound is clean and free from debris before the edges of the wound are held together and the superglue applied. This has been an old standby of many climbers for a number of years and superglue is widely used in A&E Departments instead of stitches as it leaves less of a scar, so there's no problem from the glue itself, just a risk of infection if things aren't cleaned properly.

Better luck next time :-?

[gurushaun]

If you are wearing trousers then rather than rip your shirt, rip out part of one of the pockets, then the garment is still useable and its an easy repair when you get home.

Cheers

Shaun

[Andy B]

Of course you could allways use your undies, if they are clean of course.
Although removing them might be a problem if your in a popular area.

The superglue thing is very interesting, I actually thought it might be poisonous, what if it gets into teh blood stream for example might it cause a blood clot to form in a dangerous place?

I climb and could have done with some superglur yesterday as I got a bit of a gash on my knuckle.

Cheers

[Tumper]

Superglue must be safe. My 14 month old flat haired retriever has recently had a tumor removed from his groin. It reqiured a lot of internal stitching, and about 20 on the outside. He's a very active mutt, and despite keeping him indoors, and as docile as possible, the stitches would pull, and open up. After the second time the vet sealed along the external stitching with super glue. It worked a treat.

[gurushaun]

The Medics do use a special type, Martyn mentioned it in one of his threads (he is a medical professional). But I've seen the normal stuff used BUT as with any procedure which closes a wound clenliness is everything and its best left open but covered until a pro can look at it.

Cheers

Shaun

[GATOR]

The professional "super glue" is called dermabond. Over here it requires a doctors prescription. I personally would NEVER use it on anything more than a paper cut, something small, not deep, and clean. I'm not about to replace sutures with it. It works great in a sterile clinical situation, but out in the woods I can't see myself using it too much. I've been using myself as a guinea pig to test it for the last few months to see what kind of comfort level I have with it.

As far as wound closure in the field, well, it depends on your experience level. First things first, direct pressure. It doesn't really matter if you use a bandage, a piece of shirt, or just your hand. Most of the time direct pressure (and elevation) will stop all but the most extreme bleeding. If you take your hand off and it's still bleeding, then it didn't clot. Do it again. If you do that a couple times and it still didn't clot it's time to consider sliding along the continuum. (Depending on total blood loss, it may be time to move along sooner) Direct pressure, elevation and cold, pressure points, splints, then at the very last resort touniquets. I would only use a tourniquet if the bleeding is life threatening. Chances are that when you get to medical help, they will amputate a portion of whatever appendage the TQ was applied to.

If you're worrying about the wound after the bleeding has stopped, then it's a totally different treatment. You WILL get many different opinions. My personal advice? Leave it out in the open, suture if warranted, and move on. The thing is, if you use something like superglue, dermabond, even pine sap, you're not only sealing out infection, you're also sealing in any existing beasties. Not good! There are times, for me at least, where sealing off a wound would be beneficial however. Small lacerations to the hands and feet are an example. They seem to split open every time you reach into your pockets, brush against something, or grab onto something, or move. In those instances I like to cover them up, just for convenience.

I have no idea what plants are available on that side of the world. It's important to consider what type of enviornment you'll be in and how far from medical help you'll be. :-D

[the naughty boy]

superglue was developed soley to patch up soldiers in vietnam.this is referred to in the film dog soldiers by the way.

people wonder why it sticks skin so well? lol thats what it was made to do!!

[TAHAWK]

superglue was developed soley to patch up soldiers in vietnam.this is referred to in the film dog soldiers by the way.

people wonder why it sticks skin so well? lol thats what it was made to do!!

Superglue was invented by Dr. Harry Coover, Phd Chemistry, during WW II and was first commecially sold in the U.S. in the 1950's. It is an "urban legend" that it was first developed for medical use in Vietnam, although a more suitable form was developed for medical applications and was used in Vietnam.

[GATOR]

Yup, superglue was originally developed to be a type of clear gun sight.

Again, I wouldn't use superglue or dermabond to seal up any wounds unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing.

[the naughty boy]

well there ya go! learn something new everyday.sometimes its usefull too! :roll:

[Adi007]

Dermabond and superglue are similar but not the same. Superglue is ethyl-cyanoacrylate while Dermabond is 2-octyl-cyanoacrylate. the reason for the differnce is int he way that these glues work. They stick to things by taking small molecules and making them into bigger chains through a process called polymerization. This process is exothermic, which is chemist talk for giving out heat.

Dermabond isn't as fast and vigorous as Superglue (taking 45 - 60 secs to cure, compared to a few seconds) so less heat is given off. So, the upshot is that you can use Superglue, but it can get hot so get ready for the ouch!

Another thing to bear in mind is that neither should be put too deep because they cannot be absorbed by the skin ... so don't put too much in there!

[Kath]

I wish I'd had some Dermabond when I had to fix 007's hand after his 'axe-ident'. He wanted me to use regular superglue but I chickened out ...

[jakunen]

As well as the plaintain already mentioned, one VERY old method of dealing with minor cuts is to use lichen as a pad (apperently it has an anti-septic effect?) and cover the wound with cobwebs. We all know how sticky those things are. Cobwebs were the original band-aid, so even if your are caught out without a FAK, you can still treat basic injuries in the wild.

[Doc]

I use Histoacryl tissue adhesive in casualty quite a lot, especially for children. It smells like superglue, but it's blue. It certainly does not replace sutures - large wounds, or those over joints are often best sutured.

You put it on the wound surface, not into the wound itself.

The trial evidence shows that the rate of wound breakdown is slightly higher with tissue adhesive compared to suturing.

Other good options for wound closure include Leukostrips/steristrips and, for scalp wounds, tying the hair on each side of the wound together.

Of course, the most important point about incised wounds is proper assessment to exclude injury to important structures (ie tendons, vessels and nerves) and proper cleansing. That matters more than how you close the wound.

[alick]

Well I stand by to be flamed here but .....

While I 100% agree that a first aid kit is only common sense if you're setting out to do some serious cutting or heading more than a couple of hours out, I definately see it as a convenience not a necessity on anything under a day.

Look at it like this: all that really matters on a day trip is being able to stop significant bleeding until you can get expert help. And be able to summon help if you break something along the way and get immobilised.

Plasters, antiseptics, etc just aren't that important. The only thing in a first aid kit that's likely to make a difference in a real emergency is something the size of a battlefield dressing or superglue - otherwise use the shirt ! (though the pocket lining trick is truly inspired).

My reasoning ? I carry a knife 18 hours a day 364 days out of 365, and use it almost every day. I don't and never will carry a first aid kit for more than a tiny fraction of this time. I also take far more cuts - invariably small, sometimes deep - off my spyderco pocketknives and chisels than I do off my woodlore.

I have a tendency to faint at needles and a few minutes after cutting myself, so my personal recipe is suck and spit, let the thing bleed to try and clean it out, then get direct pressure on, elevate the hand and lie down before I fall down. On a little cut, patching comes later, if it was a big cut I'd be hollering and ripping my shirt without a second's thought !

Here's to living dangerously :-D

[TAHAWK]

Here's to living dangerously :-D

Good'o mate. More room for the rest of us. :-)

[boaty]

I think it depends who you're with - I don't carry much of anything when out and about on my own, but if I've got small kiddies in tow (happening more and more as they get bigger, thankfully!) then I stock up, especially on antiseptic wipes and plasters. They always graze, cut, and otherwise injure themselves, and a quick wipe and a plaster makes them feel better! They then forget all about it and get into the next scrape...

[the naughty boy]

i agree with alick,i dont carry a first aid kit with me because i dont intend to get cut or injured,and i work with sharp edges all the time.familiarity and understanding of knives and axes go a long long way towards prevention of accidents.

if i carried everything i would need "just in case" something happened, id need a pack of donkeys with me.

as the guy from fantastic four says...flame on... :-D
and who can forget that line from predator..i aint got time to bleed... :wink:

[TAHAWK]

i agree with alick,i dont carry a first aid kit with me because i dont intend to get cut or injured
. . . and who can forget that line from predator..i aint got time to bleed... :wink:

And the Murphy's are a band of optimists. :roll:

[Gary]

Let's hope your never unfortunate enough to see how wonderful hind sight is!

But as we're quoting movies - Obi Wan Kenobi, "Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows the fool?"

[Adi007]

I pretty much always carry a shell dressing with me ... just in case!