atlatl and archery

[jerv]

I was just wondering how many others out there practice making and throwing atlatls. It seems to be a big thing in the US. Has anyone taken one to an archery club or field shoot? If there is more than one of us we could possibly get together to have an atlatl field shoot on the farm I work at For those who haven't tried it's pretty easy to get a working version made it's basically a 6' arrow thrown from a board. Try it it's fun

[Brian Curnel]

jerv...it is BIG here in the US actually there is a hunting season open for Atlatl hunting. But yes I do practice and there is a worldwide organization for atlatl practitioners. just google it @ www.google.com

Happy atlatling

[bent-stick]

Our little primitive group got the atl-atl bug. We didn't do any spearchucking at the last meet because we couldn't secure the site. We are looking for a site for the next meet, hopefully before Christmas. I'll post details on the gatherings forum if it ever comes off.

We did a few experiments and we were getting roughly 3 time the distance than we did throwing the dart by hand.

I'm planning to include atl-atl in the archery course I'm preparing for next year. I don't want to promote it here, it's not the proper place, but if you PM me I'll let you have the details I know so far.

[Seoras]

I have started experimenting with the Atlatl after doing the master class at the Wilderness Gathering. I work as an outdoors instructor for the Sea Cadets and have been making sets up for the cadets to use whenever I run a camp. The sets are basic in that the darts do not have flint points and for speed of construction I use gaffa tape instead of feathers. Not very authentic I know but I try to cover as many bushcraft skills on these camps as possible.

The kids love the event as it is something they have never come across before. I show them the overhand throwing method first and then progress to the side swipe technique later. I use a circle of rope with an orange survival bag as a target. I vary the distance depending on student size/strength and skill level. Any other ideas for targets would be appreciated guys.

Keep me informed of what you are planning as this will be a good addition to the Bushmoot.

George

[jerv]

how does the side swipe work??? I do a sort of tennis serve throw and get about 50 to 60 yards. My new darts are really frightening though, I just flicked my wrist and sent the beast a clear 35-40 yards. Gave the neighbour a fright!
I can't really imagine hunting with one would be pretty exciting though. I saw an old film of a traditional elephant hunt in africa and these guys were getting the elephant in the eye every shot.
spear hunting won't be happening in the UK though, people nearly burst into flames when you mention hunting with a bow.

[Snufkin]

I like atlatls although I haven't thrown in a while. I never really went for long range throws, just tried to get accurate at theoretical hunting ranges 15-20m. I could get on target pretty well but adjusting elevation was a problem, I'd either overthrow or underthrow. I'll have to make some more darts and get out there.

[Seoras]

Jerv

From what I gather the overhand method was used when hunting big game such as mammoth. Many darts would be thrown at once.

Sideswipe (thats what I call it) is a much more definite targetting throw. Combined with good stalking techniques it is still used to hunt game in parts of the world. When using this technique the dart flies much closer to the ground and travels I feel much faster than the overhand method. The dart can also have weights attached to them which is supposed to make them travel faster.

I always set up the event as a type of Archery range, cordened off and only one thrower firing at a time. You can comfortably control 3 throwers on the range with one stepping forward to fire, then steeping back and the next thrower stepping forward and so forth. The speed that some throwers can release the darts is quite astounding.

For a much clearer history use this link to part of the download section. There are a few docs on the subject. Atlatl Downloads There are 3 or 4 docs on the subject.

[stovie]

I was just wondering how many others out there practice making and throwing atlatls...... Try it it's fun

Will be getting the scouts to make darts and atlatls on their camp in a few weeks, there's plenty hazel of the right length and diameter for the darts, and they can learn knife and axe techniques while making the atlatl.

I'm also going to demonstrate how to make a working bow and arrow from scratch in 2-3 hours...

[Tony]

Stuart made a nice one that I’ve had a go with, I think it’s a great piece of equipment and it will get you fit retrieving the darts!!

Patrick has some fine examples or weighted ones. There's also a few articles on the site here...

Ahh, sorry George, just seen that you've put the link in already

[bent-stick]

I've had a word with the secretary of the Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery and it may be - if there was interest and a suitable venue an alt-atl shoot (if that is the righ word) - could be arranged. I've no clue yet to the format but perhaps a target shoot for accuracy over a range of distances and a flght shoot to see who could get the furthest.

I don't think we will pull it together before next spring so you'd have time to research and build something.to chuck

So far there is a bit of interest in the South-East. Any suggestions for venues would be welcome. We'd need an open area that could be secured against people wandering in and getting nailed. The SPTA would supply insurance and some organisation and get some of its members to come along. .

We know there is a european group of spearchuckers and we'd extend an invite to them too.

Any interest?

[Snufkin]

I've had a word with the secretary of the Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery and it may be - if there was interest and a suitable venue an alt-atl shoot (if that is the righ word) - could be arranged. I've no clue yet to the format but perhaps a target shoot for accuracy over a range of distances and a flght shoot to see who could get the furthest.

I don't think we will pull it together before next spring so you'd have time to research and build something.to chuck

So far there is a bit of interest in the South-East. Any suggestions for venues would be welcome. We'd need an open area that could be secured against people wandering in and getting nailed. The SPTA would supply insurance and some organisation and get some of its members to come along. .

We know there is a european group of spearchuckers and we'd extend an invite to them too.

Any interest?

You might want to contact the World Atlatl Association. They have a set of competition rules for what they call "the international standard accuracy contest". I believe each competitor has 10 throws, 5 at 15m and 5 at 20m.
Depending on when and where, I might be interested. As long as the venue has a large barn with very broad sides I should be OK .

[jerv]

my boss said we could use the farm for an atlatl field shoot. there is also a possibility of using adjoining woodland etc The farm is located in sussex. There won't be any public about winter or spring. As long as no one can throw over 250 metres we should be okay for a flight shoot. I thought a mammoth target would be quite fun. I'd really be more intersted in doing a field shoot rather than a target shoot but am really just keen to do it.
Is shoot the right word??

[rich59]

I have just read through some of those atlatl articles. Wow! That math is amazing, and if true should make archery enthusiasts sit up and get out pencils and paper to calculate the best arrow designs to go with their bow. But how many of us know about cosh functions?

But the idea that the projectile takes up and then releases tension energy back to kinetic energy during the act of throwing is a fab concept. I guess you could apply the same concept to the throwing stick (atlatl) as well - bending and straightening during the throw.

I think the frog has been proven to use this concept in its jumps - there are springy tissues in the muscles that take up energy at the start of the push off and then release it again at the end of the push off.

So if I wanted to apply that bending/ straightening action in the shaft of an arrow how would I go about designing my arrow? I would need a heavy point to the arrow, and a flexible arrow shaft. I wonder if in fact the shaft should then be slightly bent so as to be sure to bend more during the firing.

[Ogri the trog]

Rich, I'm a bit of a duffer when it come to mathematics but I can offer a "lay-mans" interpretation.
There will be an optimum weight of the whole projectile, the lighter it is, the further it is likely to fly, but it will be more susceptible to side winds etc. At the other end of the scale, a heavier arrow will need more energy to fly a similar distance though it will hold a steadier course, and is likely to "strike" harder.

There are a whole lot of trade-offs in the final item;-
Spine (the springiness) of the shaft, too thick and it will not bend - leading to a dead feeling, too thin and it will "porpoise" leading to excess drag as it settles into straight flight. I don't think a pre-bent shaft will do you any favours as it will probably "corkscrew" in flight and throw accuracy out of the window.
Weight of the arrow head (which makes the arrow bend as it resists acceleration due to it own inertia), too light will not get the best out of the shaft and too heavy is in danger of snapping the shaft on launch or causing a permanent bend which will destroy accuracy.
Flights or fletches (which will stabilise the arrow by increasing drag on the rear end, to name a few, again too small will not hold a steady trajectory, and too big will cause excess drag.

I've seen some atlatl launchers with weights bound to the middle section which causes bending of the launcher, also because the throwing action is in an arc, the arrow shaft is bent during launch.
I think theres a whole lot of fun to be had in experimentation with lengths of arrow and launcher, weights, spine etc to get the best set-up for the individual as no two sets are likely to be the same. I've adapted this from a few years of longbow archery but the theories are very similar.

This is going to be a great winter project.

ATB

Ogri the trog

[bent-stick]

my boss said we could use the farm for an atlatl field shoot. there is also a possibility of using adjoining woodland etc The farm is located in sussex. There won't be any public about winter or spring. As long as no one can throw over 250 metres we should be okay for a flight shoot. I thought a mammoth target would be quite fun. I'd really be more intersted in doing a field shoot rather than a target shoot but am really just keen to do it.
Is shoot the right word??

It looks like we can do it under the SPTA insurance. I need to do a proposal and risk assessment.

We are probably looking at next spring (march perhaps) in Surrey/Sussex. If there is enough interest and a venue somewhere else in the country I wouldn't mind trying to organise another one later in the year.

Format is probably going to be along the lines of the world atl atl stuff Snufkin suggested but perhaps not 30 darts each as I suspect like me you will have a limited number of darts and it is a LOT of walking back and forth. I'm quite keen for research purposes to do a flight shoot too so we can compare designs/materials/techniques etc.

I'm sure we can come up with some imaginative primitive targets.

Small entry fee for prizes and stuff and a contribution towards the insurance. Juniors welcome, encouraged even. We'll open it out to SPTA and the European group.

I think 250m will be pushing it, even with my exocet atl-atl...

I'll have a word with some knappers to see if I can get some decent flakes for dart points to bring along.

There may well be some primitive bows and arrows around for comparison.

[stovie]

I'd be interested....just have to make one of those atlatl things in order to compete...Oh!...and a dart....and of course I'll bring along a bent stick as well

[jerv]

Let's get a date sorted and then we can sort out some kind of format.I'm thinking one of the first weekends in march. A sunday would be best. The farm is accesible by car and train.
The nice thing about this is that being new we can more or less make it up ourselves. The american thing would be fairly popular i think with some kind of semi field shoot with about 4-5 targets at unmarked ranges and hunting like conditions. A flight test I think would be great as well. I also think we should have a best made spear thrower competition to test peoples craftsmanship and primitive skills etc.
potential classes
Hand thrown
(javelin class I thought we might get some reenactor types)
baton de commmandment
primitive spear thrower (we might need more classes for example simple, atlatl, inuit etc)
open (alumimum shafts and other non primitive materials)






board designs here.
http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/designs/index.htm#arc

[stovie]

that's a good collection of atlatls...but I like what Tom mills has to say at the bottom of his 3 minute elderberry atlatl....."Atlatls are simple to make...it's the dart that you have to get right!"....

[jerv]

I just had a go at the speerschluder I made from chesnut (prob not a good choice of wood) it's quite a rough and ready version but it feels really good in the hand. I was throwing a 4 foot dart I made from a hazel shoot No head and with high fletchings so not a distance contender. We got it out to around 60 yards though. Am off to buy some wood to make inuit style ones. I liked the side swipe cast but feel i am more accurate when i cast overarm.

[bent-stick]

I go overarm all the time. Side arm is a bit Like the horizontal swing in slinging. Timing is everything. In overarm/vertical swing means the projectile is always in the plane of the target. So you only need to worry about elevation.


BTW I'm not qualified to doubt atlatlBob's mathematical assertions about flexible darts but doesn't the physics say that any energy stored in the dart with flexing will equally force it forward AND back? Equal and opposite etc. Is that Newton's Third law?

I have used stiff (bamboo) and very floppy (green hazel) darts. I think the harder darts are more accurate and have a more efficient energy transfer. I'm making a VERY stiff and heavy dart from ipe for testing.

I also consider tha atl-atl a limb extension rather than an energy storage device because at least some release of stored enery would be after the resisting force has been released. The best terminal speed should be achieved with a rigid board.

But what do I know

One of the things that might come out of this 'shoot' is a comparison of designs. I'm very willing to be proved wrong,

[jerv]

There are a few details regarding insurance and a final date still to be worked out but it looks like this thing is on for the last weekend in february (TBC!) It's early days yet and a lot still has to be worked out. But an accuracy test based on ICAS and a short feild course with a flight test look like they will main events. A atlatl crafting competition and primitive weapon comparison are also being talked about (i'd personally love to see a sling expert).
Ity's supposed to be fun but anyone coming might want to get in practice.
While waiting for your decent wood to season a rough atlatl can be made in about 10-30 minutes from a suitable piece of wood a branch ,piece of scrap soft wood pretty much anything. You can make darts from 4'-5' 9mm pine dowels fletched like an arrow with a socket cut in the back and fitted with an 11/32 field point. You'll get a good and consistent set to practice with in a few hours.
word of advice if copying a historical example remember that they were made for the individual thrower. The inuit who made the original harpoon board I copied had smaller hands than mine which has made using it a little uncomfortable. Aztecs and meso americans were mostly smaller than us the ice age populations of europe were comparable if thats any help.
PM me if you are interested in coming or want any of my (limited) advice on making and throwing the things. Advice from interested parties would also be welcomed.

[bent-stick]

I have at least 4 expressions of interest from folks who don't frequent this board.

I'll chase up the insurance stuff during this week. I'll be seeing the SPTA secretary next weekend at the annual venison shoot and I'm hoping to have an answer then. There'll be a small entry fee to cover this and we hope to award some sort of prizes.

You need to know this if you are planning to make some equipment.

The rules we are planning to use divide the equipment into 2 classes. The primitive class is all natural materials that would be available in the stone age. Copper points are allowed. I'm going to makje some copper points from 1/2" pipe that was left over from plumbing in the new boiler to replace the iron points that I have on my darts at the moment. When I've worked out the best way to do it I'll post some pictures. You are allowed modern glues and artificial sinew. (Phew I don't have to spend days boiling up rawhide shavings) Any thoughts about whether linen thread is allowable?

Anything that doesn't fit that goes into that Open class.

Cane, hazel (although it might need hardening with some heat), ramin dowel are all fine for shafts but there is a 19mm (3/4" in old money) diameter limit which applies to the shaft and the point - which excludes mad broadheads but not the fletchings. One of the advantages with cane is that you can get away with either a fire hardened quill point or a hardwood foreshaft and you have a ready made socket. Cut the cane 1/2" above a node and whip to avoid splitting.

If you are lucky you will find a bit of hazel or blackthorn with a ready made spur. This will give you a spearchucker with very little extra work. The next grade up would involve a bit of carving and binding on a bone or horn spur. Then you can go start doing extremely intricate stuff with grips and rests. If you want to see some of the more intricate designs have a look here:

Thunderbird

Some other design thoughts: If you are using flint or other whipped on points make sure they are secure. Otherwise you'll loose them when pulling them out of the target. (voice of experience). If you have a massive point you will be able to carry more energy but the dart will try to fly backwards so you need a stiffer dart and bigger fletchings to hold the back of the dart in line.

If you use PVA glue to secure points mix it with some fine sand (it should be a good red sandy soil ideally). If you lay the glue on thick it will skin and take ages to dry properly. The aggregate will make it tougher and take less time to harden.

[jerv]

link doesn't appear to work. I like the idea of a blackthorn chucker i'll strart some foraging i think. Most examples of chuckers I have seen have had very high fletchings. However there was an article in the bullletin of primitive technology about throwing for distance by craig ratzat in which he talks about leaving fletchings off well balanced and spined darts. I have used 5" archery parabolics and they worked reasonably.
I'd say yes to linen thread, according to Jim Woods of Herret Falls museum ID (Indiana?) linen was used by pre Columbus Native Americans. Was it used by primitive Europeans??? Dunno honestly, but if it was growing wild why not?

[bent-stick]

I mended the link...

[bent-stick]

I've had a group on msm for a while now that is sort of moribund. Shall we use that to track progress of the event...some of my mates don't frequent this board. Dunno why not.

Archery craft and Spearchucking

So far we have the following:

Firm commitments from:

David Sinfield (me)
Jerv (BCUK)

Expressions of interest from
Mark H
Peter B
Bruno S
Wally R
Steve T
Snufkin (BCUK)
Seoras (BCUK)
Stovie (BCUK)

[chrisanson]

I've had a group on msm for a while now that is sort of moribund. Shall we use that to track progress of the event...some of my mates don't frequent this board. Dunno why not.

Archery craft and Spearchucking

So far we have the following:

Firm commitments from:

David Sinfield (me)
Jerv (BCUK)

Expressions of interest from
Mark H
Peter B
Bruno S
Wally R
Steve T
Snufkin (BCUK)
Seoras (BCUK)
Stovie (BCUK)

i am a member of msn.com/ArcheryCraftandSpearchucking i made the forged arrow heads. dosnt seem to be much going on there for a while.
chris

[rich59]

If the plan is an atlatl throwing event at the end of February then I am game depending on dates etc.

[bent-stick]

I'll add you as a possible

[Grooveski]

Wish I was close enough to come along but it's never going to happen.
Least I can do is chuck in a pic, isn't that a pretty sight?

[bent-stick]

If you can whip up some enthusiasm and a venue in the frozen north Grooveski we could probably make it happen...You might want to see how it goes in Feb. I'm sure there will be pics.

I'll start learning the language

Looks like there's material there for loads of darts anyway...

Latest news:

The venue is confirmed.
So is the date 25th February.
Sounds good, lake included.
Limit of 30 (ish)

We have a provisional schedule of events:

ICAS standard round
Big game round
Flight shoot

I'm doing a buildalong to turn out a chucker and dart...as soon as I can get back out in the workshop... So if anyone is hovering because they haven't got gear watch this space. It really isn't difficult to put something together.

Firm commitments from:

David Sinfield (me)
Jerv (BCUK)

Expressions of interest from
Mark H
Alan S
Peter B
Bruno S
Wally R
Steve T
Snufkin (BCUK)
Seoras (BCUK)
Stovie (BCUK)
Rich59(BCUK)