Bow hunting in France

[jojo]

Cos I am french , I have had a look at bow hunting in France. It is actually legally allowed to bow hunt in France Tha'ts the good bit

The bad bit is that, like everything in France, it is legislated to death! Well not to death , because it is allowed!!! Everything is regulated, from the obligatory training you MUST have to obtain a necessary hunting license, to the bow your using, the arrows for weight and the hunting points you can use, the size and type of fletching etc...

If anybody is interested, I can do a bit more looking into and some translating( what I am letting myself into )

[torjusg]

Is it allowed to use stone/bone/antler points there?

[jojo]

Is it allowed to use stone/bone/antler points there?

To be honest, Torjusg, I don't know yet. I have only just looked and found info about it this morning. I will look at it a bit more.
I know the French are as interested in bushcraft as we are, because 2/3 years ago I went to see my brother and found a Knife Festival (they had actually closed off the town centre and charged people to get in the town centre, stalls everywhere selling knives, axes etc, forging in the streets, bushcraft, that sort of thing).
They had people there practicing bushcraft and sellling stuff, atlatls, deer sinew and the like, people walking around in the street, (not a copper in sight) with bowie knives on their belts!!!
I vaguely remember my sister telling me the boyfriend of a friend of her was bowhunting, but so far that's all I know.

[moduser]

The reason for the legislation is to help ensure clean ethical kills.

I expect you'll find that the preference is a high piundage bow (pref compound) with heavy arrows (to provide enough momentum for a pass through).

All these things are good things and the French goverment should be patted on the back to ensure that this remains a responsible activity.

I bet you'll also find that it is expensive.

BTW I'm moving this thread to Fair Game - as it really would be best there.

I for one jojo would be very interested in your findings

david

[jojo]

Moduser. Thanks for the message. I was in no way critising the reasons behind the legislation, simply indicating that like with everything in France, there are a lots of legal hoops to jump through before you are let loose, so to speak.
I think its perfectly right to have to pass a test and to be assessed to have a good level of competence, rather than banning something outright. Anybody hunting with a bow should be in my view a highly competent bowman.
Personally, I would not do it because I have not got the experience I think necessary to take the lives of animals in this manners. Also I would not want to do it for "sport".
This could become an interesting thread Joel

[torjusg]

I don't agree on the legal matters. I consider it my right to hunt with a bow, without paying money. If they want to put me on a course for free; fine, but I refuse to pay any money for it.

To my belif, the hunting with bows was banned in the beginning of two reasons:
- By making it illegal to hunt with it, they removed the incentive of keeping a bow. In time, taking away the common knowledge of how to make such weapons took away a fine weapon in poacher and rebel's arsenal.
- Weapon producers think it would be "bad for business" if you could hunt with homemade weapons.

Learning how to make a clean kill isn' that hard. You just need to limit yourself to the range you are comfortable with. In my case: Less than 15m.

[jojo]

Pleeeeease....Don't shoot the messenger! I was talking for me personally at this moment in time. I suppose ,any governement have to legislate. That's what they are there for, aren't they Triying to keep some semblance of civilisation.
Having a licence or whatever, having to pass tests does not make a person experienced or competent..
Take driving. People have a few lessons, pass their test and, hey, presto they think they are racing drivers!!!!There are plenty of dead ones out there . I am sure its the same with a bow, any twit with money can buy the latest four-wheel-drive bow and hey presto, instant Rambo, ready to hunt...
To be able to get to within 15 metres of a deer for example, now, in my eyes, that's skill A skill I would love to have, butstill have not got, and I suspect very few people in society have, (except in the zoo or the butcher's slab) And even the french test won't make someone a skilled hunter. I'll have a little rummage in the french site for what the test consist of and post it.

Ho, and bow fishing is also allowed!

[C_Claycomb]

Torjus, when exactly did the Norwegian government ban hunting with bows?

Also, it would be well for you to differentiate between your feelings for how things are done in Norway vs. how they are done in other countries. While you might object to being required to do this, or that, to hunt leagally in Norway, you do not have the right to object, on your own behalf, to any measure that the French government takes to regulate hunting within their own borders.

[torjusg]

Torjus, when exactly did the Norwegian government ban hunting with bows?

Also, it would be well for you to differentiate between your feelings for how things are done in Norway vs. how they are done in other countries. While you might object to being required to do this, or that, to hunt leagally in Norway, you do not have the right to object, on your own behalf, to any measure that the French government takes to regulate hunting within their own borders.

Jojo, that I can hit within 15m does not mean that I can get within 15m of a deer...

Well Chris, in a free-speech world we can all say what we want, can't we? In that matter I have the right to object to whatever rule I want, regardless of origin. But that said, my post was primarily aimed towards the Norwegian bowhunting system.

Bowhunting in Norway was probably not abolished solely on those reasons I mentioned as the bow had already gone out of regular around least a century later. That they banned it was a byproduct of banning all non-firearms weapons from hunting. Reason number two probably is applicable though. Just to make sure that the weapons industry's market was secured.

[jojo]

Just as well I have the day off today

FIRST INSTALLEMENT.

I got the info from the Federation Francaises des chasseurs a l'Arc. French Federation of Bow Hunters.
This is a very condensed version of the rules: so I take no responsibility for any errors that probably crept in in the translation

To receive the certificate:
To be a member of a club; to voluntarily acquire the necessary skills and knowledge, particularly about nature in general, hunting organisations with regards to the practice of bow hunting,etc, in addition to merely acquiring the knowledge to take the said exam!
The tests don't discriminate between "good" and "bad" hunters. The successful taking of the test proves nothing as to the proficiency of the candidate when said candidate is in the depth of the wood.

There is 3 parts to the exam and 2 levels of proficiency
1) theory test of 70 questions (multiple choice type exam)
Big game knowledge ie deer, boar etc
small game knowledge
other species, ie protected, regulated species etc
knowledge of habitats, search technique for injured animals, hunting dogs
more specific (pointed) questions
specific legislations
archery ie materials and shooting techiques, procedures and behaviour and attitude of candidate is taken into consideration.

The practical shooting:
fixed target shooting: 6 arrowas on 3 targets: 1)( boar, 3/4 rear view at 16 metres; deer, profile at 14 metres; hare, rear or full face view 6 metres; deer, profile at 10 metres from tree stand 3.5 metres high.

Mobile target
6 arrows on boar, profile, walking at 8km/h: 3 arrows at 8 metres and 3 arrows at 10metres.

DO YOU WANT ME TO CONTINUE?

Now I am no bow hunters but that does not seems too unreasonable to me.

French legalise gives me a headache I am going to have a rest!
Joel

[torjusg]

Joel

Sounds like very reasonable shooting requirements, even with traditional equipment. It really depends on how big an area on the target that signifies a kill though.

[moduser]

If there is more Joel, then yes please.

Also if your not a french speaker to they recognise certification from the IHEA or NBEF or other international education groups?

Thanks

David

[jojo]

If there is more Joel, then yes please.

Also if your not a french speaker to they recognise certification from the IHEA or NBEF or other international education groups?

Thanks

David

OK, the rest is concerned with what type of bows, arrow weights, size of fletchings and sort of points and size, that sort of thing.

what do the initials stand for and what sort of certification do they give? I cant see anything mentioned on the french site ans so I'll have to Email them to ask.

[Snufkin]

Thanks JoJo. So far the requirements don't seem unreasonable (apart from the treestand requirement if you don't intend to use one). I suppose the big question is how much does it cost to get certified and where are you allowed to hunt.

[C_Claycomb]

Great stuff Jojo. I would be interested to know what equipment limitations they impose. I hope that translating them won't be too painful though!

I don't see myself ever getting over there to hunt, but it is more than interesting to know about.

OT

Well Chris, in a free-speech world we can all say what we want, can't we? In that matter I have the right to object to whatever rule I want, regardless of origin.

Most certainly it is a free speech world, however just because we can say whatever we like, it does not mean that it is always right to do so I just failed to see why anyone who is not French should feel that they have a right to travel to France and hunt for free, or even to have the right to complain that, were they to travel, they would be expected to pay something to be allowed to hunt. That seems a little unreasonable to me. Now, if you were French and/or lived in France, or if there was a bowhunting system in Norway and you had to pay for that, that would be another matter....complain away

[torjusg]

Chris

I think we have partly misunderstood eachother. Of course I don't think anyone should be able to go to France to hunt for free! I was more imagining myself as a French. Or as a Norwegian here in Norway for that matter.

Said in another way: I consider it anyone's right to hunt with weapons that they have made themselves, rather than having to buy them. I also don't think that there should be any additional requirements in regard to paying for additional education and rights compared to using a gun.

I do however, see the need for paying for the right to kill the animal if you don't own the land. Otherwise, there would be very little game around...

[C_Claycomb]

I do apologise I read you wrong... I guess we do agree afterall

I would be very sorry if, for instance, I lived in France, or the US, and was told that I could not hunt with an all-wood bow, and had to go buy a compound. As I say, I will be interested to see if Jojo can come up with further translations on the gear side.

[Keith_Beef]

To be honest, Torjusg, I don't know yet. I have only just looked and found info about it this morning. I will look at it a bit more.
I know the French are as interested in bushcraft as we are, because 2/3 years ago I went to see my brother and found a Knife Festival (they had actually closed off the town centre and charged people to get in the town centre, stalls everywhere selling knives, axes etc, forging in the streets, bushcraft, that sort of thing).
They had people there practicing bushcraft and sellling stuff, atlatls, deer sinew and the like, people walking around in the street, (not a copper in sight) with bowie knives on their belts!!!
I vaguely remember my sister telling me the boyfriend of a friend of her was bowhunting, but so far that's all I know.

That sounds like the Festival du Couteau, in Nontron, Dordoyneshire.

Great event, I've been every year for the last few years.

As for bow hunting in France, a magazine called "Charc" was started up last year by Crépin-Leblond, also the publisher of a knife magazine called "Excalibur" as well as a number of books on hunting, historical and collectible firearms and militaria, and military history.

I managed to get hold of issue two from a kiosk, but then moved to the US and haven't seen it since.

Somebody in France might be able to get hold of a copy and send it over to you.

K.

[moduser]

Hi jojo,

what do the initials stand for and what sort of certification do they give? I cant see anything mentioned on the french site ans so I'll have to Email them to ask.

IHEA - International Hunting Education Association
NBEF - National Bowhunting Education Federation

Both have their origins in the USA but their education practices are the foundation of what is taught worldwide. Certainly here in the UK, the BBA - British Bowhunting Association - run their certification course based very much on these lines.

Rgds

David

[Doc]

David, can you tell me what is the accuracy standard required for NBEF?

Joel, it is all very interesting and if you have time to translate more that would be great. Encore, s'il vous plait.

[moduser]

Doc,

the test is broadhead shooting at a 6 inch disk at 20 yards, must get 9 out of 10.

So the french are more stringent

David

[Doc]

Thanks David.

Seems a fair test. Given an ethical kill zone on a red deer of 8" by 10", a 6" target is appropriate.

Interestingly the standard is similar to the DSC rifle test (4" at 100 yards prone) as the rifleman may take deer up to 150 yards, where the group could be up to 6".

Using my recurve, cedar arrows and shooting instinctive with no sights, I cannot reach the 6"@20 yards standard. When in regular practice I could probably do 10" or less. I reckon I need more practice/training, or failing that move to sights, or a compound.

I note that in the recent bowhunting poll not many chose the 'I would not bowhunt because my skill isn't good enough' and 60% said they would bowhunt. But maybe that was a self-selecting group of experienced archers.

[jojo]

I am going to be a bit busy for the next couple of days, work ! I'll probably post some more on sat. I sort of remember seeing something about "la zone mortelle" on the site yesterday, meaning approx "the deadly zone" but no mention of the size of the said zone. Now I am not a hunter, but am I assuming correctly in saying the heart and the lungs are the main choice area for a rapid kill?

[moduser]

Doc

I think I mentioned it in anthother thread but a reserve owner in South Africa I know allways does a shooting test for determine the max distance people are allowed to shoot in his reserve. A recurve archer I know ended up with a max distance of <10yrds because again it was 9/10 and he kept being moved forward until he could do it.

So although I admire and respect traditional archers (it's alot more skillful to be consistent with a long bow than a compound) I would only ever use my compounds fitted with pin sights and even then beyond 25 yrds with adrenalin pumping etc - no way would I dream of taking the shot even though on a field shoot I'm consistently killing 3D's at 40 yrds.

David

[Snufkin]

I note that in the recent bowhunting poll not many chose the 'I would not bowhunt because my skill isn't good enough' and 60% said they would bowhunt. But maybe that was a self-selecting group of experienced archers.

But that was a badly worded poll. If it had said I would not bow hunt until I was of a proficient standard. Then alot more people would have ticked that box.

[jojo]

just a few more bits of info. I spoke to my sister in Bordeaux, her neighbour's boyfriend is a bow hunter, at least she thinks so. She will speak to him tomorrow, and hopefully I'll get more direct info from him.
So far the only restriction on the bows seem to be that: the string must be over 95cm in length; automatic releases are forbidden. That's all I have found so far. Traditional bows are allowed, I found some for sale. I found an article that states, dont' buy french bows, reasons given: far too expensive, the guy uses American made bows, recurve and trad. I have found nothing against home made bows, so far, there might be, but I have not fount it.
Arrows minimun weight of 30grams, the point must have 2 cutting edges 40mm long each, and the point must be within a 25mm diameter circle, I assume this means the 2 back edges of the point must not be more than 25mm across.

All arrow must be permanently marked with your hunting permit's number; if only one arrow not marked your are illegal and liable to prosecution.

I have just found a page in the official French Federation where they give instructions and advice to impecunious french wannabe hunters So that means homemade equipment is acceptable as long as the few requirements are adhered to.
I saw the minimum weight required but I lost the page I think its 45 to 55 or 60lbs for small animals and 60 to 75lbs for large animals suck as deer and boars but, I will double check.I have not yet found anything about costs.

I'll post any further info as I get them.

[jojo]

That sounds like the Festival du Couteau, in Nontron, Dordoyneshire.

Great event, I've been every year for the last few years.

As for bow hunting in France, a magazine called "Charc" was started up last year by Crépin-Leblond, also the publisher of a knife magazine called "Excalibur" as well as a number of books on hunting, historical and collectible firearms and militaria, and military history.

I managed to get hold of issue two from a kiosk, but then moved to the US and haven't seen it since.

Somebody in France might be able to get hold of a copy and send it over to you.

K.

That's right Keith-beef. I thought it was a super festival, and showing a big difference in attitude between French and British people regarding knives and weapons generally. Can you see it happening here???Would the town be surrounded by riot police and the army? not mentioning health and safety, risks assements and such like legislation .
I can see the french maire doing his health and safety inspection: oui, must do ite, say la loi, ness pas? then go for a little stroll in town, stop here and there to have a pastis with his mates, and then say, oui set bien pas de problems, pas de risque, allez! on ny va ok rant over now

[jojo]

I have not managed to speak to my sister's neighbour yet.

It seems to be that to be able to bow hunt in France:

First you must joint the French Federation of Bow Hunters.
Second you have to have a Permit de Chasse. (hunting license), that I think is just a question of asking for it, and pay whatever the fee is.
Third, you have to pass the three parts practical exam.
Fourth, I think you have to belong to a club, but I am not sure on that one.

Then you have to comply with whatever rules have been designed for your equipment, but that does not seem very difficult at all, making your own equipment being acceptable.
I found nothing about being able to use either bone or stone points, so perhaps that's illegal there.
Nothing about costs yet.

I'll ask my contact for confirmation of the above.